I guess they didn't coddle pitchers in the old days. Holy sh**!
- Thread starter patdog
- Start date
Gibson wasn't throwing 100 mph either. If everyone still threw upper 80s, low 90s, and hadn't thrown year round their whole lives, they could do it too.
Was also amazing basketball player.,played for Harlem Globetrotters and the great Meadlowlark Lemon was his roommates in the 50’s.
Those old guys were badasses. Some of them threw absolute nukes... Feller and Ryan threw as hard as anyone ever. Then they'd go drink a fifth of whiskey, smoke a pack a day of unfiltered cigarettes, skip a few years in their prime to fight a world war, and then run a farm in the off-season.
So no, they didn't throw as many pitches and definitely not as many as max velocity as modern players in the course of the year... They were too busy being men. Men who know how to pace themselves for a full day's work of mowing down batters or enemy soldiers or bottles of whiskey or fields of barley or áss...
Gibson was probably throwing low 90s. Which even now isn’t too bad. And no, there’s no one today who could throw anywhere near that many innings at that velocity.
They pitched with broken arms and no ligaments or tendons. And never once complained. One guy pitched even after both arms were amputated.
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I saw that! He almost killed the catcher with a chest bump after the 8th!
I would like to know the pitch count for the extra inning games. Also, were bullpens banned during this time?***
37 starts listed. In a 162 season, it would normally be just over 32 starts if you didn't miss your turn in the rotation with a 5 man rotation. I guess these could be post season appearances as well. Pretty impressive stuff.
37 starts listed. In a 162 season, it would normally be just over 32 starts if you didn't miss your turn in the rotation with a 5 man rotation. I guess these could be post season appearances as well. Pretty impressive stuff.
I strongly suspect he had a lot of single-pitch-count innings. Probably for a complete game, he wasn't throwing more than 110 or so pitches.
Back then, you'd usually skip the 5th starter if you had an off day. Starts for Cards pitchers that year: 34, 33, 33, 30, 21, 5, 4, 2.
Don't know that I'd go that far, some of these guys are freaks. But I agree in principle, it's a combination of so many things. So many of the guys back in the day that DID throw 100 like Nolan and Doc were just freaks.
It all starts at the youth level. You have all this 'training' that sort of artificially gives you velo, that's really not meant to be there. And to obtain that velo, you have to practice - a lot - which means tons of throwing, which is outside simple game pitch count. Then they are throwing 'bullpens' for their travel teams, school teams, etc. Just throw throw throw throw. And year round, like you say.
I also think the guns are a little hot these days too. And I don't necessarily think top speed is all that increased, there's just more guys throwing harder.
Gibson would have thrown one at the head of anyone who tried to coddle him.
Nolan Ryan would have thrown 108 using todays gun. These current guns give velocity out of the hand where the old one gave the velocity at 50 feet away from the pitcher. There is a documentary named Fastball, available on Prime, that goes over the science of it all. These people throwing 95 today were not hitting 90 in the Gibson days. Gibson would probably be 97 or 98 on todays guns.
Just my opinion I don't think speed is the issue, it's throwing as hard as you can that's the issue. If it takes all my might to throw 60 and all the other guys might to throw 100, we are both endangered for getting hurt because we both are pushing our arms to the limits.
Incredible documentary; a must watch for any baseball fan. Every few years I remember it and watch it again.
Holy ****, I found it on youtube for free.
Correct, that's called throwing not pitching. I don't know how that gets lost in the shuffle of year round ball, etc.
Gibson gave up a grand slam to Pete LaCock in the last inning he ever pitched. They faced off several years later in an old timer's game. Gibson hit him.
I don't care if Gibson only threw 50 mph, if you crowded the plate or pissed him off, you were gonna get "brushed back" with a 50 mph pitch. He was one intimidating S.O.B..
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This is a pretty good article I ran across a while back. It's almost 15 years old but same subject then.
www.espn.com
Kurkjian: The countdown to 100 pitches
In today's game teams are fixated on pitch counts, especially as they reach the 100 mark.
www.espn.com
Actually, some old guys were throwing nearly 100 mph. But speed measured differently then than now. Now, radar measures speed just after ball leaves pitcher’s hand. Old radar measured just in front of the plate, where speed was diminished some. See the great YouTube video called “Fast Ball.” It explains all of this.
I can't remember what old timer it was that called ******** on "quality starts". This was probably already over a decade ago when he made this comment but he basically said that for them, any game you started and didn't complete wasn't a good start and only going 6 innings was a complete failure. Whoever it was was somebody old enough that I never watched them. Older than Nolan Ryan but I couldn't even begin to guess at who it was.
Gibson's ERA for that 1968 season was 1.12. He started 34 games, 28 of them were complete games. In the 6 that he didn't finish, he was pinch hit for, he was never removed from the mound for another pitcher.
None of them grew up playing and throwing year round. Baseball has been 17'd up for money like most things today. Most of them worked in the off-season and not at baseball. You had guys serving in the military they came back and owned baseball. Too damn much throwing outside of games and normal bullpen work (which isn't max effort). Guys are also bigger now and it's from lifting instead of actual work. Body wasn't made for that.
It's becoming a 5 inning game of max velo, bodybuilding, and doctors.
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Yeah, some statistical fallacies or whatnot in that discussion. How many nuke throwers blew out their arms being used that way and were never heard from again, that would have had surgery and come back these days, or would have been stars for a long time if used like SPs today?
I think it's in large part that teams have 5+ years invested in these guys by the time they are MLB SPs, and they don't want to risk that investment by having them face a guy for the 4th time (with inherent low chance of success) when there's a cheap bullpen guy available to do it.
Gibson was probably mid 90's early in his career. Make no mistakes about it, he threw hard. Even said that's a truly amazing stat. Players back then weren't the wussies they are today.
True, but throwing harder also puts greater stress on the joints, regardless of how much effort it takes.
Part of it is most of those guys threw like Greg Maddux: simple, effortless delivery. Clean mechanics. They didn't evolve difficult contorted deliveries to max out their fastball or generate spin.
Now that is extremely impressive. No wonder they almost never pulled him out of the game. That is pitching dominance right there.
You've got "pitching labs" and biomechanical engineers, and workout guys, and computer programs, and arm programs.
Am I hearing The Sixpack agrees it should be bourbon, breaking horses, hauling hay, cold beer, and aspirin? Oh, and some wild poon and a poker game?
I swung a green Easton loaded with tennis balls. Got caught when the end cap blew off. Missed the team bus one time cause I was literally tied up with a girl. Wasn't worth a **** but played.
Kids don't even talk face to face anymore. It's amazing they can even get laid.
Am I hearing The Sixpack agrees it should be bourbon, breaking horses, hauling hay, cold beer, and aspirin? Oh, and some wild poon and a poker game?
I swung a green Easton loaded with tennis balls. Got caught when the end cap blew off. Missed the team bus one time cause I was literally tied up with a girl. Wasn't worth a **** but played.
Kids don't even talk face to face anymore. It's amazing they can even get laid.
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Gibson's ERA was spectacular and 1.12 over a full season is something we'll probably never see again. That said, that was the era of the pitcher...there were a lot of low ERAs. Pitchers were so dominant that after 1968 they lowered the mound to give hitters more of a chance, and ERAs went up as a result.
Oh he was fantastic. Just wasn't ripping 100 and throwing year round. Like Bruce and others said, they naturally threw like they threw. None of the BS like today. It's not coddling that's the problem. It's the BS money-making, year round arm programs and games. I wouldn't let a kid even lift much weight til they're 9th grade if it's me. Body weight is max lifting til then IMO. But damn kids are committing 9th grade. The demand is too much
His ERA almost doubled with the higher mound the next year. All the way up to 2.18.
.
I'm not a Cards fan either, but my father was. I picked up this book, Gibson's Autobiography, from his shelf some time in my 20's. It's pretty damn good.
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