I'll say it. I don't see the big deal about Cijntje.......

[OG Goat Holder]

Is it a convenient time for me to say this? Sure. But I think the ambidextrous stuff is more of a unique story than something that truly helps you win games on the field.

Sure he will get better. But he's not some guy that we have to build this team around.

 

[Podgy]

And he's a weekend starter, for now. Not many other pitchers to build around.

 

[ronpolk]

I have not watched him enough to know how good he is…. But I do know he’s one of the better pitchers on this staff

 

[rynodawg]

Is it a convenient time for me to say this? Sure. But I think the ambidextrous stuff is more of a unique story than something that truly helps you win games on the field.

Sure he will get better. But he's not some guy that we have to build this team around.

He’s got pro potential with right arm. Keeps opponents to low batting average, just shouldn’t be weekend starter yet as a freshman because of walks. Similar theme with Loftin.

 

[patdog]

He’s got pro potential with right arm. Keeps opponents to low batting average, just shouldn’t be weekend starter yet as a freshman because of walks. Similar theme with Loftin.

He's got great stuff. He needs to trust it more and not try to pitch too fine. I think he probably needs to just concentrate on pitching right-handed for now until he adjusts more to SEC baseball (which he did in his last start).

 

[AstroDog]

I haven't heard anyone say we should build our team around one pitcher. Any pitcher.

 

[Maroon13]

At first I thought it was nice weapon for him as a pitcher. However after listening to Lemonis talk about he had to warm up both arms and the extra scouting of opponents to prepare for throwing right or left to them..... it now seems more efficient and effective to throw right rather than attempting to throw both.

 

[Xenomorph]

the extra scouting of opponents to prepare for throwing right or left to them.....

Well damn... I'd hate for Lem and staff to have to put in extra work for us to gain an edge...

 

[Podgy]

Does anyone know the going rate for good pitchers in the portal? We don't have LSU money but I'm wondering what we need to line up to get some to choose us over say Auburn or Ole Miss or some of those teams in the East?

 

[The Cooterpoot]

He needs a real pitching coach. He's having to deal with the Foxhall Defect right now.

 

[thatsbaseball]

I'm getting the feeling good pitchers have as much of a problem with our coaching staff as they do the money.

 

[Perd Hapley]

The “ambidextrous stuff” will absolutely help us win games on the field IF he develops SEC quality off-speed pitches. But it doesn’t matter if you can throw 90+ with both arms and matchup with hitters if they know that the fastball is the only thing you can consistently get over the plate from either side. Thats what he was when he got here, and still is to some extent, so I agree that we shouldn’t have to rely on him this soon in a perfect world.

If he had just one consistent off-speed pitch from each side, he would have been the first overall draft pick, already a millionaire, and never would have set foot at MSU. The fact that he doesn’t is why he’s here. The biggest challenge will be practice time limitations in NCAA baseball. It’s hard enough for a one armed pitcher to master their secondary pitches during normal practice hours….and he has to do double the work.

 

[Podgy]

Just some better pitching and we'd be a regional team, a big improvement from last year. I just don't see that happening. And there's another Forsythe error. This team. And, before I can post, that happened.

 

[MSUDC11-2.0]

He’s very talented but very much a true freshman. He can be an elite starter with proper development. Hope he gets it here.

 

[Maroon13]

Well damn... I'd hate for Lem and staff to have to put in extra work for us to gain an edge...

It's not just the coaches. The player is required to put in time preparing as well.

 

[HuntDawg]

The “ambidextrous stuff” will absolutely help us win games on the field IF he develops SEC quality off-speed pitches. But it doesn’t matter if you can throw 90+ with both arms and matchup with hitters if they know that the fastball is the only thing you can consistently get over the plate from either side. Thats what he was when he got here, and still is to some extent, so I agree that we shouldn’t have to rely on him this soon in a perfect world.

If he had just one consistent off-speed pitch from each side, he would have been the first overall draft pick, already a millionaire, and never would have set foot at MSU. The fact that he doesn’t is why he’s here. The biggest challenge will be practice time limitations in NCAA baseball. It’s hard enough for a one armed pitcher to master their secondary pitches during normal practice hours….and he has to do double the work.

5-11, 167 lbs.

He wouldn’t have been a 1st rounder and wont be a first rounder. He would need a randy Johnson slider from the left side and a Pedro Martinez change up from the right to sniff the 1st round and even then likely wouldn’t be.

Good pitcher. Not great. Certainly not a 1st rounder or a 1st round talent

 

[Perd Hapley]

5-11, 167 lbs.

He wouldn’t have been a 1st rounder and wont be a first rounder. He would need a randy Johnson slider from the left side and a Pedro Martinez change up from the right to sniff the 1st round and even then likely wouldn’t be.

Good pitcher. Not great. Certainly not a 1st rounder or a 1st round talent

His height / weight has nothing to do with it. He’s a true freshmen that is going to get bigger and stronger. Landon Sims and Jack Leiter only had 1 or 2 inches on him as juniors and they are righties.

And of course he’s not a first rounder right now. If he was, he wouldn’t be here. He could become one if he gets the off speed stuff and gets just a few more mph on both fastballs. That may be unlikely to happen in the limited practice universe of college baseball.

And although I’m selfishly glad that he chose MSU, I often wonder if he personally wouldn’t have been better off long term going straight to the minors. That way he could have gone straight to work with more development time and the long leash to be able to work through the finer points of pitching from both sides. He won’t get either of those in the SEC.

 

[HuntDawg]

His height and weight has everything to do with draft-ability. Not many pitchers of that stature in the majors and that definitely plays a factor in where hes drafted.

He should fill out, but 5-11 is undersized for a pitcher, and due to this unless his stuff is absolutley filthy he wont get drafted that high let alone the 1st round.

I agree with the other points, but it goes back to a lot of the issues on this board. People think we have more talented players than we acutally have. While a good freshman pitcher, hes not a first rounder, was never projected to be one, and will likely never be one. Other teams in the SEC will have 1st rounder pitchers and other teams in the SEC have more impressive freshman pitching and pitching better than the ones we have.

and all jokes aside, 1-2 inches, matters a lot. Sims 6-2, 230. Leiter 6-1 205. You cant compare him to either of those guys.

 

[WrapItDog]

Well damn... I'd hate for Lem and staff to have to put in extra work for us to gain an edge...

^^^^ Has never tried to use a laptop while sitting on a bucket

 

[Podgy]

"People think we have more talented players than we actually have."
the word "great" gets tossed around quite a bit although I don't see much evidence during games this year of great players. I hope some of these young guys become great but then our coaches need prove they know how to make someone great.

 

[8dog]

His height and weight has everything to do with draft-ability. Not many pitchers of that stature in the majors and that definitely plays a factor in where hes drafted.

He should fill out, but 5-11 is undersized for a pitcher, and due to this unless his stuff is absolutley filthy he wont get drafted that high let alone the 1st round.

I agree with the other points, but it goes back to a lot of the issues on this board. People think we have more talented players than we acutally have. While a good freshman pitcher, hes not a first rounder, was never projected to be one, and will likely never be one. Other teams in the SEC will have 1st rounder pitchers and other teams in the SEC have more impressive freshman pitching and pitching better than the ones we have.

and all jokes aside, 1-2 inches, matters a lot. Sims 6-2, 230. Leiter 6-1 205. You cant compare him to either of those guys.

We have enough talent not to get boat raced most SEC games. Lets start there

 

[patdog]

"People think we have more talented players than we actually have."
the word "great" gets tossed around quite a bit although I don't see much evidence during games this year of great players. I hope some of these young guys become great but then our coaches need prove they know how to make someone great.

Yeah. Foxhall and Lemonis aren't doing our players any favors with their coaching. But this team isn't anywhere near as talented as people are saying it is. I don't care what the inflated recruiting rankings say. We have maybe a couple of players who could play on a top half of the SEC team.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

LSU will do a good job developing him over the next two seasons

 

[Perd Hapley]

His height and weight has everything to do with draft-ability. Not many pitchers of that stature in the majors and that definitely plays a factor in where hes drafted.

He should fill out, but 5-11 is undersized for a pitcher, and due to this unless his stuff is absolutley filthy he wont get drafted that high let alone the 1st round.

I agree with the other points, but it goes back to a lot of the issues on this board. People think we have more talented players than we acutally have. While a good freshman pitcher, hes not a first rounder, was never projected to be one, and will likely never be one. Other teams in the SEC will have 1st rounder pitchers and other teams in the SEC have more impressive freshman pitching and pitching better than the ones we have.

and all jokes aside, 1-2 inches, matters a lot. Sims 6-2, 230. Leiter 6-1 205. You cant compare him to either of those guys.

The concerns about height might weigh in more if he couldn’t, you know, throw with both arms. You can’t compare him to really any other player in recent memory with that unique skillset. Height / frame matters a lot for durability, but he’s not going to have those same concerns due to being able to split his work between LH / RH.

What he has is the biggest cheat code that any pitcher could potentially have, IF he can throw multiple pitches from both sides for strikes. That’s all there is to it and that will outweigh everything else. Whether or not he gets there is TBD.

 

[HuntDawg]

The concerns about height might weigh in more if he couldn’t, you know, throw with both arms. You can’t compare him to really any other player in recent memory with that unique skillset. Height / frame matters a lot for durability, but he’s not going to have those same concerns due to being able to split his work between LH / RH.

What he has is the biggest cheat code that any pitcher could potentially have, IF he can throw multiple pitches from both sides for strikes. That’s all there is to it and that will outweigh everything else. Whether or not he gets there is TBD.

If people felt that way. He would have already been drafted and offered enough money to not be in school. If professional scouts and organizations felt like he had the ultimate cheat code if it just developed, he wouldn’t be in school period. They likely see the same thing I do. A good but not great pitcher. Below average from the left side from a pro perspective and limited upside from the right

ill again to be willing to wager any amount of money that he’s never a top 5 round draft pick let alone 1st round

the talent and the pro projection just isn’t there.

 

[Perd Hapley]

If people felt that way. He would have already been drafted and offered enough money to not be in school. If professional scouts and organizations felt like he had the ultimate cheat code if it just developed, he wouldn’t be in school period. They likely see the same thing I do. A good but not great pitcher. Below average from the left side from a pro perspective and limited upside from the right

ill again to be willing to wager any amount of money that he’s never a top 5 round draft pick let alone 1st round

the talent and the pro projection just isn’t there.

Nobody said people felt that way right now. This is a hypothetical discussion about his outlook if he developed a lot more high level pitches than he currently has. And I too am skeptical if he can do that. I’m only saying his size won’t hold him back at all if he is able to add those pitches.

You, me, and scouts all see him as a guy who can throw a fastball with his right arm and a fastball with his left arm. Both fastballs are decent by college standards but below average by MLB standards. And he has nothing else he can get over for strikes consistently right now. As I said before, his unique skills were more suited to going straight to pro ball, because he needs twice the development of any other college pitcher.

 

[Msuirondawgs]

His height / weight has nothing to do with it. He’s a true freshmen that is going to get bigger and stronger. Landon Sims and Jack Leiter only had 1 or 2 inches on him as juniors and they are righties.

And of course he’s not a first rounder right now. If he was, he wouldn’t be here. He could become one if he gets the off speed stuff and gets just a few more mph on both fastballs. That may be unlikely to happen in the limited practice universe of college baseball.

And although I’m selfishly glad that he chose MSU, I often wonder if he personally wouldn’t have been better off long term going straight to the minors. That way he could have gone straight to work with more development time and the long leash to be able to work through the finer points of pitching from both sides. He won’t get either of those in the SEC.

I do think one big reason he decided yo come to State, was that Milwaukee drafted him as a SS. He wants to pitch and needs those reps now. That plus him going middle rounds wasnt what he wanted either.

 

[Msuirondawgs]

If people felt that way. He would have already been drafted and offered enough money to not be in school. If professional scouts and organizations felt like he had the ultimate cheat code if it just developed, he wouldn’t be in school period. They likely see the same thing I do. A good but not great pitcher. Below average from the left side from a pro perspective and limited upside from the right

ill again to be willing to wager any amount of money that he’s never a top 5 round draft pick let alone 1st round

the talent and the pro projection just isn’t there.

I chatted with a guy with ties to the Brewers, who drafted him to play SS primarily, but wasnt opposed to letting him pitch either..He honored his commitment to MSU to continue to develop as a pitcher instead. I guess he figured 18th round was his baseline and he could go higher in 3 years with us.

 

[beachbumdawg]

I chatted with a guy with ties to the Brewers, who drafted him to play SS primarily, but wasnt opposed to letting him pitch either..He honored his commitment to MSU to continue to develop as a pitcher instead. I guess he figured 18th round was his baseline and he could go higher in 3 years with us.

He’ll go undrafted if he stays here under this staff

 

[Indndawg]

Well damn... I'd hate for Lem and staff to have to put in extra work for us to gain an edge...

exactly. Actually trying to earn his $???

 

[Perd Hapley]

I chatted with a guy with ties to the Brewers, who drafted him to play SS primarily, but wasnt opposed to letting him pitch either..He honored his commitment to MSU to continue to develop as a pitcher instead. I guess he figured 18th round was his baseline and he could go higher in 3 years with us.

I think it was also stated before the draft that he had a pretty high number he was telling teams that it would take to keep him from going to college….likely 1st round money. So he probably would have gone in the top 7 or 8 rounds if he was willing to go at his current value.

It’s kind of a catch-22 for him. You could count on one hand the number of people on the whole planet that could throw 90+ with control with both arms (even if its just one pitch). In terms of how rare his skill combination is….its up there with Shohei Ohtani. But its also a curse because just that skill by itself isn’t enough to get hitters out in college and beyond. He needs several years of dedicated development to get the other pitches dialed in from both sides. He might develop great in 3 years of college, become a first rounder who can throw two good pitches with both arms, but STILL need multiple minor league years.

I think over the long haul you could argue his fastest path to pro ball would have been going straight to the minors and getting the accelerated development there, even if he had to sacrifice a bigger potential signing bonus and quality of life for 2-3 years in order to do so.

 

[HuntDawg]

He’s not a 1st round pitcher. Period. This isn’t that hard.

just break him down into two pitchers. He’s low 90s from the right side, that’s below average in the league. Sure he can develop into more, but he’s not going to start throwing upper 90s.

from the left side he’s not even touching 90. He’s not even a sec quality pitcher from the left side.

what sums up his ability as a pitcher is that he was drafted as a SS. It’s cute and all that he can throw with both arms. But you just can’t “develop” 1st rounders. There has to be talent, body, and a projection. He doesn’t have a big league body, his talent is good but not great.

he’s simply not a 1st rounder and it’s certainly not the staffs fault he’s not going to be one. Again it’s hard to go undrafted out of high school and turn into a 1st rounder.

and as I’ve said earlier, pro scouts and organizations believe in projections more than the now. So if the projections you keep speaking of and that rare talent you keep speaking of was actually 1st round worthy he would have gotten 1st round money. The fact it would have taken him 2-3 years to develop wouldn’t have scared them off for a second had they believed in that rare talent and ability

 

[BB30]

His height / weight has nothing to do with it. He’s a true freshmen that is going to get bigger and stronger. Landon Sims and Jack Leiter only had 1 or 2 inches on him as juniors and they are righties.

And of course he’s not a first rounder right now. If he was, he wouldn’t be here. He could become one if he gets the off speed stuff and gets just a few more mph on both fastballs. That may be unlikely to happen in the limited practice universe of college baseball.

And although I’m selfishly glad that he chose MSU, I often wonder if he personally wouldn’t have been better off long term going straight to the minors. That way he could have gone straight to work with more development time and the long leash to be able to work through the finer points of pitching from both sides. He won’t get either of those in the SEC.

His height and weight have more to do with him being in college now than stuff does I assure you.

if the kid was 6'4 215 pounds he'd sniff the first round.

comparing his stuff out of highschool to leiter isn't even in the same ball park

same with Landon.

Big difference in the size of those guys and stuff. The draft is all about projectability and a 5'11 170 pound kid doesn't have a ton of projectability. He's a relatively high floor low ceiling guy.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

There are a lot of opinions for someone you regard lightly. Amazing.

I saw him pitch a couple of innings once... just once. He had some decent stuff; he just looked indecisive. We've had a great, seasoned catcher to help young pitchers. Our pitching control is partially due to a lack of experience and presence behind the plate. Our coaches don't know how to handle this situation because they haven't had to deal with it. Everyone is blaming Lermonis. He is just part of the problem. Even if and when we change staff, we still have these other issues.

 

[Perd Hapley]

His height and weight have more to do with him being in college now than stuff does I assure you.

if the kid was 6'4 215 pounds he'd sniff the first round.

comparing his stuff out of highschool to leiter isn't even in the same ball park

same with Landon.

Big difference in the size of those guys and stuff. The draft is all about projectability and a 5'11 170 pound kid doesn't have a ton of projectability. He's a relatively high floor low ceiling guy.

If the draft was only about projectibility, Ethan Small would have gone 1st round out of high school instead of going completely undrafted in a 50 round draft. Projectibility matters a lot, but it isn’t the only thing by any means. Justin Foscue is another guy who nobody considered being an elite player in HS who went to college, got better every year, and became a Top 15 pick. Guys go to college, improve their game, and raise their ceiling all the time.

But again, I’m not saying Cjintje will do that. Nobody in the thread ever said he would be a first rounder (and in my case, quite the opposite actually).

 

[Msuirondawgs]

If the draft was only about projectibility, Ethan Small would have gone 1st round out of high school instead of going completely undrafted in a 50 round draft. Projectibility matters a lot, but it isn’t the only thing by any means. Justin Foscue is another guy who nobody considered being an elite player in HS who went to college, got better every year, and became a Top 15 pick. Guys go to college, improve their game, and raise their ceiling all the time.

But again, I’m not saying Cjintje will do that. Nobody in the thread ever said he would be a first rounder (and in my case, quite the opposite actually).

Agree with this. "Improving their game" in college. Sims did it. Bednar did it. Lo's PG rating was a 10 his senior year, the same as Sims and higher than Will's. Not saying Lo will be a 1st rounder in 2 years though. Any improvement at all these next 2 yrs, he will get drqfted by someone.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

He’s not a 1st round pitcher. Period. This isn’t that hard.

just break him down into two pitchers. He’s low 90s from the right side, that’s below average in the league. Sure he can develop into more, but he’s not going to start throwing upper 90s.

from the left side he’s not even touching 90. He’s not even a sec quality pitcher from the left side.

what sums up his ability as a pitcher is that he was drafted as a SS. It’s cute and all that he can throw with both arms. But you just can’t “develop” 1st rounders. There has to be talent, body, and a projection. He doesn’t have a big league body, his talent is good but not great.

he’s simply not a 1st rounder and it’s certainly not the staffs fault he’s not going to be one. Again it’s hard to go undrafted out of high school and turn into a 1st rounder.

and as I’ve said earlier, pro scouts and organizations believe in projections more than the now. So if the projections you keep speaking of and that rare talent you keep speaking of was actually 1st round worthy he would have gotten 1st round money. The fact it would have taken him 2-3 years to develop wouldn’t have scared them off for a second had they believed in that rare talent and ability

Agree with your general premise. But I wouldn’t put specifics to it, because we have had 4 guys go undrafted out of high school and go 1st round, just in the past 3 years - Bednar, Sims, Westburg, Foscue, and almost 5 with Tanner.

But your point is accurate, either you have that baseline ability or you don’t. And no, Cjntje won’t be a first rounder.

 

[GloryDawg]

He's been switching arm to arm during the game. This was the first game he did not switch. Now let's try the other arm for the entire game and see what happens.

 

[BB30]

If the draft was only about projectibility, Ethan Small would have gone 1st round out of high school instead of going completely undrafted in a 50 round draft. Projectibility matters a lot, but it isn’t the only thing by any means. Justin Foscue is another guy who nobody considered being an elite player in HS who went to college, got better every year, and became a Top 15 pick. Guys go to college, improve their game, and raise their ceiling all the time.

But again, I’m not saying Cjintje will do that. Nobody in the thread ever said he would be a first rounder (and in my case, quite the opposite actually).

What I'm saying is everyone you named outside of foscue still had ceiling, small was a tall relatively physical lefty.

don't know smalls story if he was 83-86 in highschool then yea he went undrafted but he had the frame and ceiling to improve. If he was 88-92 in highschool he probably wasnt signs me still could ha e been a top 10 round pick if he were singable but he could have said I want x amount of dollars if I don't get that I'm not signing so teams passed on him.
Do t know if small was a late bloomer or the backstory on him but that's the two avenues.

a 5'11 170 pounder has to have elite ++ stuff and that doesn't happen often