Interesting Article on GA Tech's new offense...

[Dawg725]

Forgive me if this has been posted, but I find this interesting...

http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=831054

A Triple Option Stack? I hope our DL can stay healthy.

Interesting...</p>

Thoughts?</p>

 

[Dawg725]

Forgive me if this has been posted, but I find this interesting...

http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=831054

A Triple Option Stack? I hope our DL can stay healthy.

Interesting...</p>

Thoughts?</p>

 

[DovaDawg]

One, as the article implies, you have to have a very smart QB. Most service academy guys are much more academically gifted than the average southern football player, hell person for that matter.

Two, most kids that go service academy are there because that is where they want to be. If you recruit a football player to Annapolis, he usually wants to be there and playing football is just a bonus. Try telling a 4 or 5 star stud RB that he may only get 1/4 of the carries and see how hard it is to recruit talent.

I think it will have some success initially, but eventually they will run in to teams that will load the box and have a couple of good lock down CBs and the gimmick will be up.

 

[Coach34]

the option is tried and true over the years in football. Teams using the Spread are using option principles in their run game. You can be very successful with it...

Here's the problem they will face- Having enough healthy QB's. The QB's are going to take a beating. He is going to have to throw enough to keep the Safeties honest so they arent up at the LOS knocking the piss out of his QB's</p>

 

[8dog]

a team not named Nebraska ran the traditional option in a major conference with a lot of success?

 

[bulldogbaja]

I think Hughes, Fitzhugh, and D. Douglas dream about this at night- the chance to get a running start at a QB.

 

[DynamicDawg]

I think Hughes, Fitzhugh, and D. Douglas dream about this at night- the chance to get a running start at a QB.

I think our d-line, linebackers and safeties are dreaming about this like little kids dream about Christmas.
</p>

I thought teams stopped running the wishbone in the SEC because the defenses had too much speed for the bone to be effective. Is the triple option that much different?
</p>This game will be interesting to watch.

 

[NapoleonDynamite]

This is nothing to really brag about, but I would bet I've seen Paul Johnson's triple option offense more than anyone since I was living near Annapolis and went to a lot of Navy games. Trust me, that guy can coach circles around almost any other college coach.

This year, they'll still be in learning mode, but once his GT team masters the calls and reads, this offense will be successful. The thing with Paul Johnson is that, to the casual fan, it looks like they are running the same plays over and over. In reality, Johnson is constantly changing blocking schemes as he sees the adjustments the Defense is making. I swear, the guy is uncanny in his ability to constantly change schemes and stay one step ahead of the other team/coaches. Trust me, many a team has tried to "stack the box" and "shadow the QB" and every other conventional wrinkle. Heck, Greg Schiano was D-Coordinator at Miami during some of their glory years and the first year he faced Navy he tried that and Navy put up 55 points on him. After that, he used all summer and changed the schedule to add an open date just to prepare for the next meeting (which Rutgers won handily after Navy's QB broke his leg in the first quarter).

I saw that offense move up and down the field against some very good teams (and no, I don't include Notre Dame last year). Over the last 4 years, I saw them run the offense and pile up yards against a good Wake Forest team, a good Rutgers team, Boston College in a bowl, Maryland and others. And those who doubt can't really think he won't have better players at GT.

The thing I saw with Navy against the really good teams was not that Johnson's offense could be stopped. Rather, the service academies weaknesses are on defense because they don't have the speed or size to match-up. That forced Navy's offense to be near perfect and have to score almost every time they had the ball. It was like tennis, if they ever lost serve (turnover, not making a 4th down conversion), they would have trouble against these better teams.

So, I think getting GT early this year is an advantage. But when they come to MSU in '09, our players and coaches better be on their A-game, because Johnson will have many more wrinkles to throw at us. Plus, this is a guy who was the Offensive Coordinator at Hawai'i years ago and they aired it out pretty good, so don't look for him to run the EXACT offense at GT he ran at Navy where speed is not really an option. The guy is a winner and I expect him to continue to win like he has everywhere else.

If you want to read something on his offense, here's a good explanation - grab a chair, its long:
http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/the-science-and-the-art/

 

[DynamicDawg]

I can see the beauty of the offense. It's definitely going to be a challenge to stop. I think our guys will be ready though.

If our offense can put some points on the board, then this should be a good game.

 

[patdog]

before you start saying all those ACC teams Navy ran up and down the field against were "good" teams. Even still, once they start seeing that offense every year in the conference, they will adjust and shut it down. Johnson will have to open his offense up and throw the ball more to keep them honest or he won't last more than 5 years at GA Tech.

 

[cowbellpresident]

You still need to be pretty dam smart to go there.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

Johnson will be able to get players as smart as at Navy, but also much more talented. As for the triple option, the spread the way it's run today is little different from what Bama and Oklahoma ran in the 1970's and 1980's. Heck, what Florida's running today with Tim Tebow is the old Single Wing, with Tebow as a true Triple-threat Single-wing tailback (Pass, run, hand off).

 

[AssEndDawg]

This is nothing to really brag about, but I would bet I've seen Paul Johnson's triple option offense more than anyone since I was living near Annapolis and went to a lot of Navy games. Trust me, that guy can coach circles around almost any other college coach.

This year, they'll still be in learning mode, but once his GT team masters the calls and reads, this offense will be successful. The thing with Paul Johnson is that, to the casual fan, it looks like they are running the same plays over and over. In reality, Johnson is constantly changing blocking schemes as he sees the adjustments the Defense is making. I swear, the guy is uncanny in his ability to constantly change schemes and stay one step ahead of the other team/coaches. Trust me, many a team has tried to "stack the box" and "shadow the QB" and every other conventional wrinkle. Heck, Greg Schiano was D-Coordinator at Miami during some of their glory years and the first year he faced Navy he tried that and Navy put up 55 points on him. After that, he used all summer and changed the schedule to add an open date just to prepare for the next meeting (which Rutgers won handily after Navy's QB broke his leg in the first quarter).

I saw that offense move up and down the field against some very good teams (and no, I don't include Notre Dame last year). Over the last 4 years, I saw them run the offense and pile up yards against a good Wake Forest team, a good Rutgers team, Boston College in a bowl, Maryland and others. And those who doubt can't really think he won't have better players at GT.

The thing I saw with Navy against the really good teams was not that Johnson's offense could be stopped. Rather, the service academies weaknesses are on defense because they don't have the speed or size to match-up. That forced Navy's offense to be near perfect and have to score almost every time they had the ball. It was like tennis, if they ever lost serve (turnover, not making a 4th down conversion), they would have trouble against these better teams.

So, I think getting GT early this year is an advantage. But when they come to MSU in '09, our players and coaches better be on their A-game, because Johnson will have many more wrinkles to throw at us. Plus, this is a guy who was the Offensive Coordinator at Hawai'i years ago and they aired it out pretty good, so don't look for him to run the EXACT offense at GT he ran at Navy where speed is not really an option. The guy is a winner and I expect him to continue to win like he has everywhere else.

If you want to read something on his offense, here's a good explanation - grab a chair, its long:
http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/the-science-and-the-art/

The reason teams went away from the wishbone and the option is not because they can't work. The reason they stopped doing it is because in the big time conferences you have 6'4" guys weighing 280lbs that can run 4.5 forties. What this proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is that this coach has never been in a big time program. Sure, you can make it through a couple of big games and then play the rest of your service academy schedule but the day-to-day beating these guys are going to take in conference makes this a unworkable offense.</p>

The problem with the option is that the QB gets hit... a whole lot. Getting hit by 2nd Lieutenant Johnson, future Pentagon desk jockey, is a tad bit different than getting hit by Big Daddy Elroy, future NFL linebacker. It will be fun to watch but I'm betting you start seeing them drag people off the field in scary numbers after the fourth or fifth game. The guy may be a winner, but in this case he is "sticking with what he knows" and installing a service academy offense into a real football conference (ok, it's the ACC and I may be taking some poetic license here).
</p>

 

[Temple of the Dawg]

<span class="post-title">GA Tech, while not the Naval Academy</span> you still need to be pretty dam smart to go there <span style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: underline;">if you are not there on athletic scholarship</span>.

I went to HS with a guy that played baseball there in the late 90's that was dumb as a box of rocks but he played all 4 years he was there.

 

[patdog]

A lot easier.

 

[Coach34]

to try and keep that from happening...LB's arent so much the problem as they will have linemen and backs assigned to them- its the Safeties running the alley and making plays. Napolean is right- there are a bunch of line calls and blocking schemes that make it tough to defend.

People got away from the wishbone because defenses were getting to fast and it just got too hard to make big plays with 3 backs in the backfield. The I formation got popular again in the mid-80's, and then in 1990 Spurrier changed the conference forever. However, nobody tried to run the triple out of the double wing and trips formation the way Navy and Air Force have.

He is going to have success because he has been very good everywhere he has been. I look for him to make the necessary adjustments to his offense to make Tech a winner. And I also agree that 2008 is a much better time to play them, cause 2009 and beyond they are going to be alot better.

 

[patdog]

I look for him to make the necessary adjustments to his offense to make Tech a winner. And I also agree that 2008 is a much better time to play them, cause 2009 and beyond they are going to be alot better.

He will have to make adjustments to his offense to be successful in a BCS conference, even the ACC. He's a smart enough guy to do that. And away 2008, home 2009 is the perfect time to play them. I think they'll struggle this year (maybe even finish with a losing record), be decent next year, and probably fairly good by 2010. </p>

 

[Temple of the Dawg]

This is a question based on a lack of knowledge about the triple option since I didn't grow up watching it. Doesn't the triple option require an OL that is quick & agile? I maybe out in left field, but it would seem that GT would be in short supply of the type of OL that are usually associated with the triple option. As such, wouldn't it take Johnson at least two maybe three years to really build the type of OL he needs from an agility and quickness standpoint?

 

[Porkchop.sixpack]

Stanford? I have always wondered that. I mean, hell, it has to be the case. One of the finest academic universities in the nation. And they field pretty darn good sports teams, too. Either it is the case, or they are doing some genetic engineering somewhere.

 

[Coach34]

zone blocking changed offensive line play when it became prevalent in college football 15-20 years ago. With the way teams zone and pass block, most guys starting on OL's in college football can move. So thats really become a non-issue.

The way most coaches see the triple (yes, I was one. I was raised on it, my father ran "The Bone") is to have physical guards and quicker tackles. Guards have to drive block alot more due to dealing with 4 man fronts and teams playing alot of 3 Techs (DT's lining up on the outside shoulder of the guards). Tackles have to move a little more due to combo blocks with the guards or getting on LB's. Thats different from your I teams and such that trap and run power plays using their guards as the more mobile lineman.

What has helped option offense tremendously is the mid-line option. When running the triple, there is usually a double-team by the guard and tackle on the 3-tech to try and blow him out of there. Now the DE has to tackle the FB and the offense is trying to get to the corner. But with the midline option, the guard slips the DT to go hammer the MLB. The FB runs right up the Centers ***, and the DT is read by the QB. If the DT doesnt tackle him its usually a 5 yard minimum gain by the FB. DT tackles FB, QB keeps and turns inside OT has has kicked out the DE, and follows the back who has now led the hole on the Sam LB.

This play has made the triple so much more effective because now the defense has to really protect the interior part of the defense as well. You also get a big body beating on your MLB. And the option of today is a miserable experience for a DT. He is either getting hammered by a double-team, or has to react quick and tackle the FB, who looks like he is shot out of a cannon running the midline.

 

[uhhct1]

I am not really that adept to the triple option but isnt there a cause for concern if a triple option team falls behind early. I just cant see that type of team being able to come from behind.

 

[Henry Kissinger]

yeah, it's true. it's also definitely true for the ivy league. you have to be respectable to get in (28+ or so on the ACT), but if you play a sport you've got a great shot. i know several people who've gotten in that way. tell your kids.

 

[Porkchop.sixpack]

does no good. Much more likely to make it in the old fashioned way than the athletic way.

 

[Coach34]

"I am not really that adept to the triple option but isnt there a cause for concern if a triple option team falls behind early. I just cant see that type of team being able to come from behind."

Kinda sounds like an ultra-conservative West Coast offense team from the SEC....

They dont throw it as well as most teams, but they align in what is basically the run-and-shoot formation and can quickly get receivers out into the patterns. Its not like the old days of the Wishbone with 3 backs in the backfield that limited your big plays.

 

[patdog]

is finding a QB who can both be a good triple option QB and also a decent enough passer to be effective throwing the ball. That's always been a tough combination to find. I think the 20-hour limit hurts true triple option teams in the passing game too. You have to spend a lot of practice time working on the triple option to be good at it. That doesn't leave much time to work on the passing game. And, as you mentioned earlier, your QB takes a hell of a beating in that offense.

 

[Gene Swindoll]

The only reason that major conference teams don't run the original triple option is for recruiting reasons. Big schools went to more pro-style offenses in order to recruit kids that ultimately want to go to the NFL. Another reason was that fans and alumni wanted to throw the ball around more like everyone else began to.</p>

 

[MSUbravesfan]

da

 

[Todd4State]

traditionally runs the WCO. Of course, that was where Bill Walsh coached.

Where you are matters as far as what kind of offense you run as well. Obviously, on the west coast, you are going to see more WCO, run and shoot, cerebral type teams. Even the spread option teams like Oregon and Washington tend to be teams that focus a lot of time and energy on the mental part of the game and fundamentals, repitition, etc.

In the South football seems to tend to have more of an emphasis on being physical and trying to out whip the other team. It seems like the offensive coaches tend to just want to keep everything simple and go with it. I think that's why you have seen more of the wishbone style offenses in the past in the South, because obviously the triple option is very much a smashmouth offense.

I think it all kind of comes together with the spread option type offenses because while the have triple option backgounds, they also have run and shoot and WCO backgrounds as well. I think it's a result of people trying to take advantage of their personnel.

That said, personally I don't particularly care for the spread option, much less the triple option. I still have an image of Sleepy Robinson going down against UF in 92, and while it's certainly possible for any QB to go down at any time in any offense, I would like to minimize that. If I had my way, I would run a combination of a simplified version of the WCO and the run and shoot version of the spread, make Norm Chow and June Jones my two best friends, and see what happens.

 

[Coach34]

"That said, personally I don't particularly care for the spread option, much less the triple option. I still have an image of Sleepy Robinson going down against UF in 92, and while it's certainly possible for any QB to go down at any time in any offense, I would like to minimize that. If I had my way, I would run a combination of a simplified version of the WCO and the run and shoot version of the spread, make Norm Chow and June Jones my two best friends, and see what happens"

to Florida or LSU. Considering they have those National Championship thingy's...not to mention 1/2 of the top 10 last season were spread teams

 

[Todd4State]

they would really care about my opinion, nor would I try to impose it on them.

I never really considered LSU a spread team. They seem more like a kitchen sink team in that they run a bunch of stuff from a lot of different offenses, which obviously works for them.

</p>

 

[NapoleonDynamite]

You're correct that the QB does take a beating. However, every team Navy played, they were smaller. MUCH smaller. So, at GT it will all be relative. Navy played some good teams, some teams about their level and some teams they were better than. My point is, they kept their QB's healthy for the most part - as healthy as any other college team - with a QB who had the ball and took a number of hits.

What I think some are confusing Paul Johnson's offense with is the old wishbone. His base offense starts with only a single back (a fullback) and two slotbacks. On EVERY play, one of the slots is in motion and they constantly change blocking schemes. In fact, he's said that the offense was built off a combo of the option and run-and-shoot. And as this article says, Johnson has also said its closest counterpart is Texas Tech. The genius of the offense for a team like Navy (and they'll do much the same at GT with better players) is you can't match up mano-a-mano. Navy could never win if they were expected to simply block the guy in front of them and do the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" thing on every play like the old wishbone. This offense is precipitated on misdirection and getting to the corners and lulling the defense to sleep and then popping them with a new wrinkle.

And again, at Navy, Johnson didn't throw that much because he is smart - and realized time of possession was his best ally. Therefore, scoring on long drives was the best way to utilize the offense and keep the other team's offense (and his defense) off the field. But, from what I understand, when he was at Hawai'i, they threw the ball quite a bit. I know he's an old coot, but Lou Holtz even said, when he played Johnson's teams, they always had some of the best passing game strategies he coached against.

So, I could be totally wrong, but my money is on the guy being successful at GT. He put up big numbers on the Islands, won 2 National Championships at Ga. Southern and then took probably the worst football program in the country with all of its disadvantages and won about 8 games per season for 4-5 years.