We were a lot better last year than in 2008 - 2010. But we were still a pretty mediocre team. As for whether we finally have a solid foundation or not, we'll find out the rest of this year and next year. But we sure don't have any proof of it right now. I'm not saying Cohen is doing a terrible job or should be fired. But it's also way too early to say he's doing a particularly good job. He didn't do anything in 2011 that Polk II didn't do, and we all agree that Polk II was a disaster.
It's bad when Corndogs have more sense than State fans
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We went 1-2 in a series with LSU and lost to Arkansas and Florida who were both great teams last year. The SEC is crazy good in baseball possibly even better than we are in Football. If we have a mediocre regular season record and do well in the post season its probably because all the hard competition in the SEC all year made us a better team so that we can dominate our OOC competition. Is it too hard to believe that we are a good team in a great conference?
No you can't compare baseball to basketball.
Stansbury is held to the standard of the Byrne/Stricklin model
...Stansbury teams have not met that staple the last 4 years, we don't live in a 'you live off pass success, we live in a what have you done for me lately'
...where as most of our programs are below or just average and consistently compete, Stansburys teams the last 4 years have not consistently
...we were the only effing school in 14 years to not make the sweet 16, with the same coach ...he knew his job was on the line and he continued to underpreform down the stretch, in the sec tourney, and in the NIT ...stansbury failed, we give him every opportunity to save HIS job, he did not.
Stansbury is held to the standard of the Byrne/Stricklin model
...Stansbury teams have not met that staple the last 4 years, we don't live in a 'you live off pass success, we live in a what have you done for me lately'
...where as most of our programs are below or just average and consistently compete, Stansburys teams the last 4 years have not consistently
...we were the only effing school in 14 years to not make the sweet 16, with the same coach ...he knew his job was on the line and he continued to underpreform down the stretch, in the sec tourney, and in the NIT ...stansbury failed, we give him every opportunity to save HIS job, he did not.
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri">I went to the Friday and Saturday games this past week-end.
After the Saturday game an LSU fan, that I sat behind for both games, made a
similar comment about us being young. My response back was "I'm tired of
being young." His response "I understand we have been young in
basketball for 16 years."
From my prospective I am not unhappy based solely on this week-end. I am not
happy with direction of the program and the continued abuse of our pitchers.
You can't throw Stratton 137 pitches and expect him to continue to be
successful. This is not a single occurrence. He has over pitched guys from day
one. Everyone wonders what is going on with Reed. He is our closer and in his
first outing of the year he threw 95 pitches. On top of that Cohen has offered
so much % of a scholarship to get guys to sign and cuts it the next year. You
can't build a program like that. That kind of stuff will catch up with you.</font></p>
</p>
After the Saturday game an LSU fan, that I sat behind for both games, made a
similar comment about us being young. My response back was "I'm tired of
being young." His response "I understand we have been young in
basketball for 16 years."
From my prospective I am not unhappy based solely on this week-end. I am not
happy with direction of the program and the continued abuse of our pitchers.
You can't throw Stratton 137 pitches and expect him to continue to be
successful. This is not a single occurrence. He has over pitched guys from day
one. Everyone wonders what is going on with Reed. He is our closer and in his
first outing of the year he threw 95 pitches. On top of that Cohen has offered
so much % of a scholarship to get guys to sign and cuts it the next year. You
can't build a program like that. That kind of stuff will catch up with you.</font></p>
</p>
If you look at Cohen's career at MSU and his career at UK- it's almost a mirror image. His first two years he had awful records in the SEC while his team built up, and then they made big strides in the SEC in year three- UK won the SEC and we went to a Super Regional. We also came pretty darn close to winning the SEC West last year- I know that's not a great accomplishment, but it's something significant when your team won less than ten the year before. We are in the midst of year four- when Cohen was in year four at UK, his team won 13 SEC games I believe, and they missed the postseason, but they came back in year five and made the regionals again.
I say that to say this as far as Cohen's recruiting- Cohen recruited well at UK. And he did it the same way he is doing it at MSU- he went after some JUCO guys and they won the SEC with them- similar to us going to a SR with JUCO guys. Cohen's last class was his highest rated. If you look at what we are doing with our next class- we have a guy that is rated among the top 50 juniors in Reid Humphries committed and Austin Sexton who is a pitcher that Perfect Game rated a 9.5 out of 10. And then we have Derek Martin, who I have yet to see play yet. We'll see how this class pans out, but as of now, it seems like there is a positive trend. At the very least, we seem to be bringing in players that will bust their tails off, which is definately an improvement.
What we don't know is how UK would have done had Cohen stayed- at the very least he has, contrary to the belief of some people that run an Ole Miss site, left a team with a very solid foundation.
I say that to say this as far as Cohen's recruiting- Cohen recruited well at UK. And he did it the same way he is doing it at MSU- he went after some JUCO guys and they won the SEC with them- similar to us going to a SR with JUCO guys. Cohen's last class was his highest rated. If you look at what we are doing with our next class- we have a guy that is rated among the top 50 juniors in Reid Humphries committed and Austin Sexton who is a pitcher that Perfect Game rated a 9.5 out of 10. And then we have Derek Martin, who I have yet to see play yet. We'll see how this class pans out, but as of now, it seems like there is a positive trend. At the very least, we seem to be bringing in players that will bust their tails off, which is definately an improvement.
What we don't know is how UK would have done had Cohen stayed- at the very least he has, contrary to the belief of some people that run an Ole Miss site, left a team with a very solid foundation.
Has Stratton thrown over 120 pitches in his career at MSU? He hasn't had a problem yet. And to blame Caleb Reed blowing a save to LSU because he threw 95 pitches in a game five weeks ago is a stretch. Caleb needs to stop dropping down everytime he gets two strikes on everyone- people are starting to pick up on that. I'm OK with Caleb dropping down some, but he needs to vary the times he does it to make him more effective. Tyler Whitney also threw high pitch counts and never had a problem.
It's all about how you manage your pitchers after they throw a lot of pitches- and apparently we do that well.
If you look at the health of MSU's pitching staff right now- the only two that are out are CC Watson who has been chronically hurt and injured since he stepped foot on campus and Ben Bracewell who has a forearm strain and should be back in a couple of weeks or so.
The idea of the 120 pitch count is starting to become more and more outdated and is being replaced with the idea that each pitcher is different and the focus is now shifting to conditioning, recovery, and looking at the pitchers wind-up and the effort that they exert among other things.
It's all about how you manage your pitchers after they throw a lot of pitches- and apparently we do that well.
If you look at the health of MSU's pitching staff right now- the only two that are out are CC Watson who has been chronically hurt and injured since he stepped foot on campus and Ben Bracewell who has a forearm strain and should be back in a couple of weeks or so.
The idea of the 120 pitch count is starting to become more and more outdated and is being replaced with the idea that each pitcher is different and the focus is now shifting to conditioning, recovery, and looking at the pitchers wind-up and the effort that they exert among other things.
<font face="Calibri">Yes (without looking it up) Stratton has thrown over 120
pitches. It seems that you think that because he hasn't been "hurt"
that he hasn't thrown too much. However, I believe that he been pitched too
much it has hurt his performance and hurt the team. Last year he was 2-7 and
had an ERA of 7.43 in SEC play.
I'll agree with you that there isn't a single pitch count for everyone but
based on the results we have exceeded Stratton's count where he can be
effective over a season and he is not the only one. I'm not just looking at our
pitchers health I want to win and I don't think that you can win with tired
arms.
</p></font>
pitches. It seems that you think that because he hasn't been "hurt"
that he hasn't thrown too much. However, I believe that he been pitched too
much it has hurt his performance and hurt the team. Last year he was 2-7 and
had an ERA of 7.43 in SEC play.
I'll agree with you that there isn't a single pitch count for everyone but
based on the results we have exceeded Stratton's count where he can be
effective over a season and he is not the only one. I'm not just looking at our
pitchers health I want to win and I don't think that you can win with tired
arms.
</p></font>
Striking those 17 guys out and giving up that 1 run in 8 2/3 inningskilled us against LSU. Cohen was an idiot for allowing him to dominate like that.NTDawg said:
i think that is the reason that most of the starters threw very little in the pre-SEC schedule this year...so their arms would be fresh at the end of the year....and it helps that there are freshmen pitchers he can trot out there that will be somewhat effective....
This year he started off as a relief pitcher and had not pitched too much. So we were able to see what he can do with a rested arm. We have seen what happens when he has a tired arm. 17'n idiots
Don't you wonder why he asked to be relief pitcher? My guess is that wanted to still have an arm when he left.
Don't you wonder why he asked to be relief pitcher? My guess is that wanted to still have an arm when he left.
Stratton pitch count
Preconference:
2011: 106, 100, 112, 92
2012: 39,73,87,101 (all in relief)
Conference:
2011: 108,118,103,54,107,89,38,43 (rest of years appearances were in relief)
2012: 133
Preconference:
2011: 106, 100, 112, 92
2012: 39,73,87,101 (all in relief)
Conference:
2011: 108,118,103,54,107,89,38,43 (rest of years appearances were in relief)
2012: 133
NTDawg said:
Look, I'm not one that generally "calls anyone out" on this board, but with Stratton, I have direct first-hand knowledge of his situation. He was pissed at Cohen about how he was used in the non-conference slate in early-relief this year. I mean highly pissed. He was never coddled and "explained" the situation either, although to those of us without emotional investment, it was fairly obvious what Cohen was trying to accomplish. Job well done, as this led directly to the pissed off, dominant performance that he showed Friday night in Baton Rouge. Cohen is going to push his buttons all season to try to maintain that attitude and motivation. Simply put, some guys play better with a chip on their shoulder.
Blaming his late-season struggles last year on a tired arm is at best uninformed, and at worst, absolutely ridiculous! A tired arm loses mph on a fastball. A tired arm loses sharpness on a breaker. He lost neither. His stuff was absolutely as electric then as it is now. His problems last year were all mental, related to things that were happening off the diamond...
So cohen was trying to make him angry and that led to him being angry and dominated LSU??? You don't seriously believe that. Where do you people come up with this stuff?
43 pitches in 2 innings in a loss to LSU, he couldn't get a out in the third inning
38 pitches in .2 innings in a loss to Mississippi, he couldn't get out of the first inning
Did somebody say "His stuff was absolutely as electric then". Really. Look I'm not running down Stratton. I think that he is an outstanding pitcher. I just don't like the fact that he threw over 130 pitches last time out. I don't know anything about him other than what I see and read. Absent of any knowledge of what is going on off the field the numbers at the end of the season suggest that he pitched too much earlier.
38 pitches in .2 innings in a loss to Mississippi, he couldn't get out of the first inning
Did somebody say "His stuff was absolutely as electric then". Really. Look I'm not running down Stratton. I think that he is an outstanding pitcher. I just don't like the fact that he threw over 130 pitches last time out. I don't know anything about him other than what I see and read. Absent of any knowledge of what is going on off the field the numbers at the end of the season suggest that he pitched too much earlier.
we basically have 7-8 guys that can start a ballgame... we throw 1 start 3/4 inning and see how they do we throw another 3/4 and see how they do ...meanwhile not overusing either one because you know they can all throw 50-70 pitches and then turn it over to a reliever
it keeps both starters pitches down throughout the beginning part of the year
it almost is like a spring training mindset
it allows you to keep guys on a consistent workout plan
I understand it is not how baseball was invented, but cohen is an outside of the box kinda guy.
it keeps both starters pitches down throughout the beginning part of the year
it almost is like a spring training mindset
it allows you to keep guys on a consistent workout plan
I understand it is not how baseball was invented, but cohen is an outside of the box kinda guy.
BillBraskyDOG said:
I don't need to "believe" it, because I absolutely know it's true. There is a mental side of baseball that becomes the single most deciding factor post-highschool in who succeeds at the next level and who doesn't. I also know it's true because I was a guy that hyperfocused and overachieved when pissed off. Cohen's coaching style is very similar to the coach I was most successful under. He's a jackass that will never pat you on the back and always demand more. Some guys crumble under the pressure, and some overachieve.
If it was not a mental "edge" that Stratton had last Friday, please point out to me what was different that allowed him to overachieve to a level we haven't seen at MSU in 20 years?
That's a great thought, but that's not how college baseball works. I agree with limiting his innings early, but it wasn't to make him angry.
the bleeding to be stopped immediately when Cohen took over.
Would we have been better now if he had signed mostly high schoolers. Probably, but Cohen might not be here now.
Would we have been better now if he had signed mostly high schoolers. Probably, but Cohen might not be here now.
Going from terrible to mediocre is what you call improvement. Is that not what is expected? Teams don't generally jump from terrible to great.<div>
</div><div>And on Stratton, I know him pretty well. He did not ask to be a reliever. He didn't even know what his role would be on the Tuesday before the first weekend of games, whether he would be a starter or not. His freshman year he definitely did have a dead arm by the end of the season. I don't know if that was the case last year or not. The fact of the matter now is that he is obviously in very good form for us and Cohen seems to have played his cards right. Cohen may have abused him his first two years, but he has learned from that. </div>
</div><div>And on Stratton, I know him pretty well. He did not ask to be a reliever. He didn't even know what his role would be on the Tuesday before the first weekend of games, whether he would be a starter or not. His freshman year he definitely did have a dead arm by the end of the season. I don't know if that was the case last year or not. The fact of the matter now is that he is obviously in very good form for us and Cohen seems to have played his cards right. Cohen may have abused him his first two years, but he has learned from that. </div>
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