Josh Gibson to hold several MLB records…

[QuaoarsKing]

What am I talking about? LOL it's a simple question: "Why make this change?" I read the article about how fantastic everything is going to be now that Josh Gibson took the lead over Babe Ruth, and Willie Mays et al are going to get more hits and HRs counted. Great for those guys. Not so great for Babe Ruth and Ted Williams' families, but whatever, 17 those guys. Point is, the article still doesn't answer the question, "why does this change need to be made?" "Why take two distinct historical baseball leagues that never actually merged together and jumble all the stats together all these years later?" "How does this benefit baseball in any way?"

It seems to me this is just erasing the Negro League, and we'll all just be pretending that everyone played together in that era. There are Negro League Museums, historical stats, etc. that I guess will just get demolished and go up in vapor. Not sure why people want that history gone, but oh well. I won't have to try hard to never think about this again.

You have it backwards. It's erasing these players not to include them in the leaderboards, and after all these decades, MLB is fixing that. Anyone will be able to look at Gibson's stats and see that he played in a different league than Ruth and Williams, but we can and should still recognize his achievements.

Do you really see it as a great insult to Ted Williams' family that he will now be considered 10th on the official all time batting average list instead of 5th? I bet Ted Williams himself would be fine with it.

 

[Darryl Steight]

Did you even see what I responded too. The post was talking about men’s fast pitch softball. I don’t care that people question if these stats should be included. But don’t you think jumping to including fast pitch softball as a reason to not include these stats is a bit dramatic?

Yes, of course that's over the top, but I think he was obviously exaggerating to make his point.

 

[Darryl Steight]

You have it backwards. It's erasing these players not to include them in the leaderboards, and after all these decades, MLB is fixing that. Anyone will be able to look at Gibson's stats and see that he played in a different league than Ruth and Williams, but we can and should still recognize his achievements.

I get your point. I just disagree totally that anyone has erased them, because I think anyone who cares who the alltime MLB hits leader is, or gives any thought to baseball at all, knows who Josh Gibson is. He was the best player of that era and in the Negro Leagues all time. Unfortunately back then, our country was divided racially so he played in a different league. That's just truth. We've all understood this and lived with it for decades, and now someone for some reason has decided we need to change. I don't think this change was done for baseball, I think it was done so the ladies on The View can celebrate for a day, and not one of those hags could have told you who Josh Gibson was before yesterday.

It just seems like a weak and pointless (to me) attempt to whitewash history. But I know some people like to do that, and they are usually louder than those of us who don't really care enough about an issue to put effort in. I see this as just another step in a long line of things that take us further away from truth, but whatever. Go for it, baseball stats guys. I need to get back to work.

 

[retire the banner]

Don’t really care. MLB & NBA need to worry about fixing/reducing number of regular season games before they lose the fans they have remaining. You Can’t have a great two month playoff format while also expecting us to tune in for the preceding 5 month regular season. Figure it out.

 

[dorndawg]

Don’t really care. MLB & NBA need to worry about fixing/reducing number of regular season games before they lose the fans they have remaining. You Can’t have a great two month playoff format while also expecting us to tune in for the preceding 5 month regular season. Figure it out.

I have not found any MLB/NBA fans hoping for less MLB/NBA, but I don't know everybody.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

I have not found any MLB/NBA fans hoping for less MLB/NBA, but I don't know everybody.

I’m pulling for the one game, winner take all, season.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

The only question I have is whether this league what was considered to be same level of competition as MLB? If so, he deserves to be on the top of the list.

 

[ronpolk]

Yes, of course that's over the top, but I think he was obviously exaggerating to make his point.

Well and that’s what I what I said was dramatic…

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

I am pretty sure all clear thinking lovers of baseball and justice in general are happy to see this finally happen.

Plenty of black athletes were playing right along side white athletes in professional baseball up until around 1920 (when they started erecting all the confederate monuments).

They were kicked out of the professional leagues overnight practically speaking when Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis arrived as commissioner. Landis conspired with all 16 owners to lock black players out of the professional ranks.

Then Rube Foster and some smart thinking entrepreneurs created the negro leagues because they knew there was an audience and the players were better. Much better. They drew great crowds across the country, but those attendance records went unrecorded.

Stats or no stats, even a vehement racist like Ty Cobb admitted, later in his life, that the black athletes were the better ball players.

Can't we all just move on and get along?

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

If I told you Josh Gibson is replacing Barry Bonds on a couple of these records, does that change your opposition?

Well he should. He hit like 900 hrs.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

Guessing it's probably because the Yahoo article referenced above came out today.


Why would teams from different leagues being competitive once upon a time mean it's 'clearly the correct decision' to merge their stats? That seems like saying the Ivy League schools and the SEC always played competitive football games in the late 1800's, so now we should merge their stats... I realize the risks of asking questions on this topic, but I don't understand the link between the two.

Because if they were competitive then the competition is equal. Babe Ruth's stats are just as applicable as Josh Gipson's stats if the competition is equal or near equal.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

Nothing dramatic about it, it’s ridiculous and political in nature. if you include the negro leagues, why exclude Sadaharu Oh and the Japan league ? What is the difference ?

Ichiro is the all time hits leader if you include his seven years playing in Japan. Why exclude him ?

Because those leagues are significantly different. They didn't have direct competition against the MLB leagues at the time to measure if they were competitive. Softball, that is a straw man argument.

Most HRs in a career, with verifiable competitive equality at the time they played..... is Josh Gipson.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

I don’t have a problem with it but I certainly can see why some might. To each his own.

Equal competition is equal competition.

 

[retire the banner]

I have not found any MLB/NBA fans hoping for less MLB/NBA, but I don't know everybody.

So you’re supportive of a nearly 6 month 162 game MLB regular season? GTFO

 

[dorndawg]

So you’re supportive of a nearly 6 month 162 game MLB regular season? GTFO

Yes. Do I watch all of them? Of course not.

Also, they're not going to change the MLB schedule based on what you or I want; they're doing it because it makes the most money for stakeholders.

 

[retire the banner]

Yes. Do I watch all of them? Of course not.

Also, they're not going to change the MLB schedule based on what you or I want; they're doing it because it makes the most money for stakeholders.

I understand how the MLB makes money. It’s why the NFL is wanting to expand to 18 games.

I would imagine I’m one of the biggest NBA fans on this board. I watch the majority of the Celtics regular season games and make it a point to get to Boston at least once every year or two. That being said, the NBA regular season has turned into a joke. Silver has done a lot of things to ruin the regular season, but it’s become a problem that can’t be fixed without reducing the number of games. 60 seems like a reasonable number. Start the season Dec 1st and end March 31st. Eliminate back-to backs. Take a bite out of revenue for a few years until it corrects itself. This will never happen, but if they don’t do something ratings will continue to decrease.

And I’ve never met anyone who thinks 162 games is a good amount for MLB. It needs to be cut by 40-50 games at least.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

Because those leagues are significantly different. They didn't have direct competition against the MLB leagues at the time to measure if they were competitive. Softball, that is a straw man argument.

Most HRs in a career, with verifiable competitive equality at the time they played..... is Josh Gipson.

Just wanted to point out that Bonds still has the home run record. Gibson now has the batting average and OPS records, but he didn't play in enough games to have any career records for the "counting stats" like home runs.

Not trying to be "that guy" but we have people getting all mad about "they're counting exhibition games to pump up Gibson's numbers!!!" when every article very clearly says they are not. Gibson's total is 166 home runs, and while it might rise higher, he won't get anywhere close to 800 in his MLB recognized stats.

 

[patdog]

The only question I have is whether this league what was considered to be same level of competition as MLB? If so, he deserves to be on the top of the list.

The level of competition was extremely variable. A few teams were probably MLB level or at least close. Most were nowhere near that level though.

 

[L4Dawg]

I'm not a fan of it, because I don't think the competition overall was as good. That being said I'm not upset about it at all. There definitely were some guys that were forced to play there who were absolutely good enough to be stars in MLB. Call them major league stats and move on.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

Imagine that you are a young baseball fan, you don't know much about it. You want to know more about baseball history, so you follow this link to see the greatest sluggers in history (sorted by career OPS)

All-Time MLB Player Hitting Stat Leaders

The official source for all-time player hitting stats, MLB home run leaders, batting average, OPS and stat leaders

www.mlb.com

You learn about the all-time legends - Josh Gibson, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Oscar Charleston, Barry Bonds , etc., and on down the list. Before today, you wouldn't have seen Gibson or Charleston on the list, and you would have totally missed out on some of greatest players to ever play. Sadly racism prevented them from being able to play in the same leagues as Ruth, Williams, and Gehrig, but at least you know that they existed.

Yes, a lot of baseball fans already knew about Josh Gibson, but I don't think most new and/or casual fans did. Oscar Charleston is more obscure. Then you get names like Buck Leonard, Mule Suttles, Turkey Stearnes -- I think it's safe to say that only a really small percentage of baseball fans know those guys, even though they were equally talented to the names around them on the list. Some people have said that MLB is "erasing history" by putting these players on the leaderboards, but I don't think that's true. I would say it's un-erasing history to finally allow them to be listed with their peers, even as they were forced to play in different leagues.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Stats went out the window in MLB during the steroid era. This is a pathetic attempt to draw in fans to a dying sport. Similar to MS changing the flag 40 years too late.

Who cares. Roger Maris quit caring the second that needle hit Bonds’ ***.

 

[pseudonym]

Makes sense to me. Some baseball historians say Josh Gibson is the best hitter to ever live and that there were times when the Negro League was the more talented league. It will never be an apples to apples comparison, but that is already the case comparing the MLB decade to decade.