Croom could have been a decent coach had he embraced the CEO role and crootin. Instead he wanted to be an OC.
KJ Wright
- Thread starter Bullldawg78
- Start date
Concur with all that, but Kiffin and Sark went through (after having big time jobs and getting fired) and come out the other side with big time jobs.
I can't believe some of these replies. There is no evidence that Joe Judge would be a good Head Coach. He's spent most of his career as a ST coordinator. He flamed out massively at the Giants, fought with assistants, had players speaking out etc. He was the QB coach for the Pats last year, but lost that job when they brought in Bill O'Brien this year. Just because Belichick likes him does not qualify him to be a Head Coach. I'm sure he liked Charlie Weis too.
If he didn't go to State, you would laugh at his name even being mentioned.
If he didn't go to State, you would laugh at his name even being mentioned.
Calm down, buddy, b4 you have an aneurism! I was only addressing the single point about NFL HC record. By itself it is not as big a factor as you seem to suggest. Other points are valid for discussion.
I'm pretty calm.
But you are correct, it in and of itself doesn't mean much. And I never said it was. I replied to the guy throwing out Saban and Spurrier as examples of failed NFL coaches that had success in college after. Two entirely different animals.
I think its fair to say KJ likes Judge, but probably also remembers playing under him when he was a GA under Croom….so I imagine they kept track of each other as both spent their careers in the NFL.
And, I’m sure that Judge is smart, organized, and professional enough to succeed in the more limited roles that he has had in the NFL. And KJ knows that, too.
But, none of that makes him college head coach material. He has never actually demonstrated ANY of the skills required to be successful in that assignment. That doesn’t make it impossible for him to have those skills, but the same could be set for dozens of other candidates. It would be a total dart throw of a hire, and we’re not in a position to be throwing darts with where our program is at right now.
"Tech and Ten" was my freshman year. I for one still have nightmares about one win seasons, so while I have thoroughly enjoyed or current (it's still current) bowl streak, I have never taken winning seasons for granted.
Well, that’s not how it works. We don’t get to know anything about who might be on his staff until after we hire him. Its not like we get to announce him and ten assistants all at the same time. He gets the job, then he starts the process of lining up his assistants which would take several weeks if not longer. That’s a typical timeframe for a college coaching change.
Horseshit. A good candidate will volunteer who he has ready to go, or at least a list of whom he will pick from. If you're a good AD you can make calls to figure out if he's full of **** or not. Do you think a legitimate coach comes into an interview and says "well you'll just have to guess what my staff is going to look like?". If that happens they aren't getting hired.
Does your level of full of **** ever cause you to just choke a little on the massive amount of **** in your throat??
Seems like it would be inevitable...
This is correct when he interviewed last time he had his lineup for Cohen, actually 3 deep per the info I was given.
No kidding he might have a list. He very well might have people he wants. But so what? You don’t know if he can land them until he gets hired. You’re taking a huge risk that they are any good in the first place, then even more risk as far as whether they would even come (or are just using us for a raise), then more risk as far as if they could successfully implement their system at MSU.
Hire a proven HC like Mike Leach, Jamey Chadwell, Rhett Lashlee, etc - none of that risk exists because they already have a whole staff. Hire a coordinator like Mullen, significantly less risk, because he brings a whole network from one side of the ball with him, but still more risk there than a proven head coach.
Mullen’s actually a great example. How do you think he answered the question you mention above - “I know you got offense covered, but what’s your plan for the defensive staff?”.
“Well, it all starts at the top with a great DC, so I’ve got the perfect guy already on lockdown - Carl Torbush!” Of course he didn’t say that ****, because Carl Torbush was awful and washed up for years, and was awful here in 2009. He was a scramble hire because all the guys Mullen probably threw out there in the interview weren’t interested.
Arnett? He probably wasn’t throwing Barbay’s name out there in the interview, either. That’s what I’m talking about. You don’t know these things until they are already hired. Nothing is ever guaranteed in the college football coaching world until the ink is dry. So rolling the dice on a guy like Judge, who has no college coaching connections whatsoever, just magically shitting out an all-star staff doesn’t make any sense.
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Everyone remembers that info.
Will 17ing Hall was coming in to be the OC. And that was allegedly Plan A for the most important hire he was going to make, so god forbid we had to move down to Plan B and Plan C. Would have been an atrocious hire even if it happened, and he would have been out to take the USM job right after the Covid season even if it wasn’t. Then what?
Lane Kiffin and Pete Carroll also failed in their early attempts at being a HFC in the NFL. Then both went on to be pretty good college head coaches.
You are moving around arguments here or not understanding my point.
Of course it's a staff risk to hire a guy that's never been a HC at the college level. I never suggested that it wasn't whatsoever. The fact it's less likely that the green candidate can assemble a talented and/or veteran staff is lower and makes those hires riskier. If Judge or some name coordinator wants the job and they give you the plan and vision, you have ways of validating if they are legitimate or feeding you crap. If legit, consider them. If you feel they are going to scramble, find someone with more certainty.
A good AD would not hire a guy just hoping he can fill out his staff. He needs assurance. If he's hoping, he needs a swift kick in the nuts and shown the door.
Your two examples are examples of bad situations that we aren't in today 1) with Mullen we were at near rock bottom from Croom and had far less money. There wasn't much interest in the job and we gambled on young OC 2) our coach died and the school president hired Arnett bc there was nobody else to hire in the timeframe it needed to be done. Both of those were far from good situations.
Btw, I'm not arguing to hire Judge - I find it very unlikely he can fill out a great college staff at the point in his career - but he's worth listening to his pitch if he actively seeking out the job being an alum and an NFL name. That should at least get your foot in the door.
Kiffin actually went on to be a pretty ****** College HC, had to go back to being an OC, and THEN became a pretty good College HC. Paid his dues so to speak.
Carrol had an extensive and successful background in both college and the NFL before he got his HC position with the Jets. He was moderately successful in his second HC job with the Pats. He was very successful at USC and can be argued to be very successful at Seattle since he has won a SB.
Again, all these arguments of Coaches who have had little on no success in the NFL and then go on to win big in college are apples and oranges. Joe Judge has never even been an OC or DC or had anything close to a job in football prior to or since his HC job at NY that qualifies him to coach USM, much less State.
Really? What are the ways? Because a candidate who legitimately believes he could bring in XYZ coordinator or ace assistant is going to tell you all the reasons why he can. Those reasons may be totally legit, or complete BS. Again back to Mullen, who in no way was throwing out cheeseball names like Carl Torbush in his interview, are you saying he was just full of crap? Or, instead, was he saying “this is my vision for the defense, I want this style, this is who I’d call to try and attempt to get to fit that”. Spoiler alert - he didn’t get ANYONE who he wanted, so he had to settle.
If Byrne had a way of predicting that he would fail that badly in Year 1 in picking a DC, he would have said, 17 this guy….we’re going another direction. And you know what…. that would have probably been a mistake. Point is, you don’t ever really know what you are dealing with staff wise with a new hire….unless its a sitting head coach. You target an organized individual who can at least not completely 17 it up even if he has to adapt to a less than desirable staff choice. Which, let’s face it, is going to be the scenario at MSU pretty often. Its impossible to know if they can really get their top choices, which was the whole thing you said was horseshit.
Cool. I’ll mark you down in the camp of “we need to hire a sitting head coach”.
We still don’t have any money compared to who we’re in the coaching market against….just in the SEC right now. And we still have 2 weeks to go before the firings get cranked up and the real competition begins. We’re very much in that situation compared to our immediate peers, and always will be.
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You are just ranting for some reason.
I will dumb it down for you:
TL;DR - you are underestimating the ******** meter a competent AD.
1) It's preferable to hire a sitting head coach bc they are predictable. I also prefer this option. Who wouldn't?
2) virgin college HCs are an acceptable option, but only when you are be able to validate the vision they sell you. Do you know how? Pick up the god damn phone and talk to your contacts. The coaching community is small and they talk. If a Joe Judge or a Lebby tells you he can bring in coaches A, B, and C to execute your program vision, you can quickly do your due diligence and figure out if he's FOS or legit. If legit, he's positioning himself as a solid candidate and should be considered.
3) we SHOULD be in a position to hire a more known commodity if Selmon is competent. I expect him to skew towards proven G5/P5 HCs than coordinators or NFL-only candidates given the timeframe we've established by an early Arnett firing and a budget that I assume can go to $5M+/yr for the right coach
4) quit comparing this to the search immediately after Croom. Apples to oranges. We had to hire an unproven visionary in that instance. Who else were the decent options then? If we had more proven options (with a little upside) and we rolled the dice on Mullen and a crap shoot for defense, then we simply made a risky bet and hit. Again, if Selmon interviews anyone that says "well here's my vision and I HOPE to hire coaches a, b, or c to help execute that vision, but I'm not quite sure if they'll sign on" and he decides to hire that guy - then we are screwed and deserve every bit of bust that comes with that. Maybe we hit and it's another Mullen, but odds are it's not.
People bring up some ridiculous names on here. We need a sitting head coach with a winning record of success preferably at a couple of stops and bring his entire staff with him. Turnkey operation. No gambling. This hire is critical
Not trying to poo poo this. I agree but I feel like every coaching hire is always critical. So I think this argument is rather redundant. Tell me a state coaching hire that wasn't critical whether it was successful or not?
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