Mitch Daniels is out at Purdue

Nitwit

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Back a Boiler, Purdue's controversial income share agreement program, suspended:​

Back a Boiler, Purdue University’s controversial income share agreement program, has been paused.​

A message posted quietly to the university’s website said the program is unavailable for the 2022-23 school year. The program, championed by outgoing university president Mitch Daniels, recently came under fire for practices that an advocacy group alleged were illegal.
In the agreements, students pledge a share of their future income for a set length of time. They're controversial for what, to many borrowers, amounts to extraordinarily high interest rates and astronomical pre-payment penalties. Many borrowers ended up paying back more than 2.5 times what they originally borrowed. Students were misled into thinking that the funds were loaned by alumni when in fact the lenders were from hedge funds. The Purdue Board of Trustees announced today (June 10) its unanimous election of Dr. Mung Chiang, currently the John A. Edwardson Dean of Engineering and Executive Vice President for Strategic Initiatives, as the university’s next president. Dr. Chiang will replace current president Mitch Daniels effective Jan. 1, 2023. Daniels has served since January 2013.
 
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Nohow

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Back a Boiler, Purdue's controversial income share agreement program, suspended:​

Back a Boiler, Purdue University’s controversial income share agreement program, has been paused.​

A message posted quietly to the university’s website said the program is unavailable for the 2022-23 school year. The program, championed by outgoing university president Mitch Daniels, recently came under fire for practices that an advocacy group alleged were illegal.
In the agreements, students pledge a share of their future income for a set length of time. They're controversial for what, to many borrowers, amounts to extraordinarily high interest rates and astronomical pre-payment penalties. Many borrowers ended up paying back more than 2.5 times what they originally borrowed. Students were misled into thinking that the funds were loaned by alumni when in fact the lenders were from hedge funds. The Purdue Board of Trustees announced today (June 10) its unanimous election of Dr. Mung Chiang, currently the John A. Edwardson Dean of Engineering and Executive Vice President for Strategic Initiatives, as the university’s next president. Dr. Chiang will replace current president Mitch Daniels effective Jan. 1, 2023. Daniels has served since January 2013.
So much for Honest Mitch. Now we know why tuition was low at PU.
 
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PSUFTG

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Mitch Daniels - one of the most successful, and maybe the most innovative, University President of his generation - will be stepping down after 10 years at Purdue.
Daniels' willingness to break free from the inefficient dogmas of higher education should be a beacon for others to follow.


Daniels' track record vav tuition has been well-publicized.... and is, indeed, quite noteworthy.

Unfortunately, it sometimes overshadows some of their other - even more important (IMO) - accomplishments:
- The tremendous enhancements to their academic and research performance (largely centered on STEM fields) that was made possible by redirecting millions and millions of $$ from administrative departments to academic departments.
- The very innovative work on everything from "on line learning", to tuition financing, to just about everything else (most of those things worked very well - and are now greatly improving things for everyone at Purdue, a few not so well - and have been kiboshed - but the key was he wasn't afraid to try new things, and keep what worked, and say "lesson learned" wrt those that didn't).

I hope his spirit and example won't die out under the suffocation of "Higher Education Business as Usual" once he is gone.

The End of an Era: Mitch Daniels to Step Down from Purdue Presidency | American Enterprise Institute - AEI
 
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GrimReaper

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Interesting how you juxtapose the suspension of the "Back a Boiler" program with Daniels' retirement. Have read about a dozen articles and none of them cites it as a contributing factor.

As for the program being abusive, I haven't found anything that reaches that as a definitive conclusion.
 

Nitwit

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Well he did reduce the font on all university correspondence in order to save paper.
 

Nohow

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Interesting how you juxtapose the suspension of the "Back a Boiler" program with Daniels' retirement. Have read about a dozen articles and none of them cites it as a contributing factor.

As for the program being abusive, I haven't found anything that reaches that as a definitive conclusion.
Read the post again: They quietly announced the program is unavailable for the 2022-2023 school year with just a notice on the school website.
Why would they do that? Then he retires, which reportedly came as a surprise to the faculty. Coincidence?
 
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BobPSU92

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We get it, you don't like it when people make unfavorable comparisons of Fats to Daniels. Heaven forbid that somethiung is done better elsewhere than PSU.

Obviously barren did a bang-up job. That’s why he’s still on the payroll as a consultant for $900k. Well, it could be for some other reason. Still…
 
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Nitwit

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The American Enterprise Institute liked him. What a surprise! And the loan program was dropped why? Read between the lines. Who profited from that program? His hedge fund Wall Street buddies. He exploited the students and embarrassed the university. Come on Barry- you’re supposed to be good at rooting out corruption.
 
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PSUFTG

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The American Enterprise Institute liked him. What a surprise! And the loan program was dropped why? Read between the lines. Who profited from that program? His hedge fund Wall Street buddies. He exploited the students and embarrassed the university.
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
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Nohow

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At no point does any aspect of your post even approach being in the right time zone - and the information isn't even cloudy.

The two groups who were unhappy with the Purdue ISA program were: The existing Student Loan Hierarchy, and the Fringe-Lunatics like Elizabeth Warren. The fact that two otherwise disparate groups, sharing only the common bond of being chock full of wrong, would join in their opposition (and, reportedly, threatened Purdue - probably hollowly - with rescission of Fed Student Loan funding in order to pressure them to pull the plug), can be nothing but a positive sign.
As per Daniels' retirement, it has been contemplated for some time, and, in fact, a transition to a new president has already been laid out, and will take place over the next 6 months or so (with the replacement coming from the academic administration of the University - IIRC, a Dean who was one of the key hires made by Daniels during his tenure as President). I don't know how you could be more wrong.



EDIT: Here is the guy who will be taking over for Daniels. This was one of Daniels' key hires (as discussed in the article), and has been part of a transition taking place for quite some time.

Mung Chiang - Wikipedi
Student loan hierarchy? Uber-left? Fringe lunatics? Take it to the Cesspo-, er, test board with your fellow jokers, Barry The Clown.
 
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PSU Mike

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What I learned from this thread:

  1. Freezing tuition is bad.
  2. Offering another option to people without removing existing options is bad.
  3. The two previous points taken together clearly point to wrongdoing because keeping tuition low so students either need to take out fewer loans or participate in BAB for a lower amount is, well, unconscionable.
 

GrimReaper

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Read the post again: They quietly announced the program is unavailable for the 2022-2023 school year with just a notice on the school website.
Why would they do that? Then he retires, which reportedly came as a surprise to the faculty. Coincidence?
That comes from a group that doesn't like the program. Big surprise, there are student loan borrowers who no longer like their loans. Until something definitive is disclosed about the program, it's coincidence. Otherwise, you're in the camp that believes that PSU aided and abetted Jerry Sandusky.
 
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Nohow

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That comes from a group that doesn't like the program. Big surprise, there are student loan borrowers who no longer like their loans. Until something definitive is disclosed about the program, it's coincidence. Otherwise, you're in the camp that believes that PSU aided and abetted Jerry Sandusky.
Nonsense.
 

Nohow

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Please elaborate on the path from frozen (lower) tuition and offering a BaB program with full risk disclosures in its documentation and how it puts us at corruption’s doorstep.
So why did they hide the fact it was backed by a hedge fund and now quietly discontinue the program?
 

TiogaLion

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What I learned from this thread:

  1. Freezing tuition is bad.
  2. Offering another option to people without removing existing options is bad.
  3. The two previous points taken together clearly point to wrongdoing because keeping tuition low so students either need to take out fewer loans or participate in BAB for a lower amount is, well, unconscionable.
This is post of the year material. Good job!
 

Nohow

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What I learned from this thread:

  1. Freezing tuition is bad.
  2. Offering another option to people without removing existing options is bad.
  3. The two previous points taken together clearly point to wrongdoing because keeping tuition low so students either need to take out fewer loans or participate in BAB for a lower amount is, well, unconscionable.
This ignores the fact they touted and actively promoted their own program as superior to traditional student loans, while Traditional loans usually offered lower payments and opportunities for loan forgiveness and pauses. It’s illegal to not offer traditional student loans. And why are there a growing number of lawsuits for these Income Share Agreements?
Horror story: Student takes out $40k loan 2018-2020, owes $100k as of 1/22.
 
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PSU Mike

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This ignores the fact they touted and actively promoted their own program as superior to traditional student loans, while Traditional loans usually offered lower payments and opportunities for loan forgiveness and pauses. It’s illegal to not offer traditional student loans. And why are there a growing number of lawsuits for these Income Share Agreements?
That’s two swings without contact.

Hey, I recognize there is opportunity for abuse under several scenarios. An example of one or two of those scenarios, and evidence that the conditions of those scenarios are present is what I’m looking for from you.

Here, I’ll get you started. If a hedge fund’s role is as unregulated insurer, where they get to pocket more than a “fair” profit over and above an actuarially fair plan, i.e., they systematically underestimate the expected future income stream of each applicant, while publishing that it attempts to be actuarially fair, then there’s a potential problem.

On the surface BaB would seem to protect a student in the event of an unexpectedly poor employment compensation path vis a vis a traditional loan. Now if the school or their agent (the hedge fund) defines the expectation in such a biased way that the student almost can’t be protected because they set the expectation so low, then well there’s something to discuss.

Even if the whole plan is actuarially fair on average, it could still be unfair within certain classes by having a positive bias in one participant group offset by a negative bias in another. But in general, overachievers subsidize the underachievers in this plan, and yeah, the overachievers may ***** after they see the outcome. But if the risk structure was understood upfront it’s not a lot different than lottery losers complaining they didn’t win.
 

PSUFTG

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For those who might be interested, here is the Cliff's Notes on how ISA's actually work:

1) They are an ALTERNATIVE to traditional student loans, for those students who prefer them over traditional student loans. They all have every right and ability to use traditional student loans and PLUS loans if they choose.
2) The process works by: Depending on how much they borrow, the student enters into an agreement to pay back an annual amount equal to a % of their income, for a fixed period of time - typically something like 5% for 7 years - something like that, obviously depending on the amount borrowed (and I think most have a maximum limit of somewhere around 10% of income). That is a much shorter term than for traditional student loans.
3) This protects the student if they graduate, and cannot find work that pays a lot of money (they also often include exceptions if the student goes through a period of unemployment)
4) The "250% limit" is a protection put in for students who end up earning very high salaries (where maybe the 5% would be a very high number) and says that no matter how much they earn, if they ever reach a payback equal to 250% of the initial amount borrowed they are done early, and don't have to repay any more. On the other hand, a student who ends up earning "not much", pays very little (But is still considered fully paid, and out of debt. I believe at Purdue anything under $20,000 or so per year pays nothing at all, but still has it "count" as a repayment year).

The end result is that it holds the University (or any third parties they bring in) accountable - they have "skin in the game" (which is something that many folks, including those on this board, have often said should be the case). In the case of Purdue? Purdue graduates around 60-70% of their students with degrees in Engineering or other STEM fields (which, of course, tend to be higher paying). Good for everyone. Those who graduate in a field (whether it be some non-marketable ____ Studies degree, or any other degree), and for whatever reason, don't earn much, end up paying back very little.
As to Purdue in particular, I believe the latest figures show that 2/3 of ALL their (in-state?) graduates end up leaving school with 0 debt - traditional student debt or any other type (including the ISA program). Those that do, and used the ISA, are out of debt much quicker. Yeah, that's terrible.
The reason they don't offer them anymore (at Purdue anyway) is due to pressure from the Student Loan lobbyists and the politicos who chant for "Free School" (even though Purdue has one of the absolute best track records for NOT burdening their graduates with excessive loan debt. Yep, some real geniuses there in Washington). FWIW, there was never a real large number of students using the ISA (probably, more than any reason, because their tuition costs were so low to begin with) - so they, Purdue, probably weren't in much of a mood to deal with the ********.

A panacea? No, certainly not. But an OPTIONAL alternative that some might like? Sure. An option that, to at least some degree, puts both the University and the Student on the same side of the table - making BOTH benefit when they graduate kids with very marketable and economically viable degrees, and the University pays the price if they crank out recipients of worthless diplomas? Absolutely. Some would think that is a good thing :)

For those who are interested, hope that helps.
 
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GrimReaper

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So you are buying your ********? So why is the program suspended?
I do not know why the program is being suspended. I'll make a judgement, for the 1.5 cents it's worth, when I find out.
 

91Joe95

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For those who might be interested, here is the Cliff's Notes on how ISA's actually work:

1) They are an ALTERNATIVE to traditional student loans, for those students who prefer them over traditional student loans. They all have every right and ability to use traditional student loans and PLUS loans if they choose.
2) The process works by: Depending on how much they borrow, the student enters into an agreement to pay back an annual amount equal to a % of their income, for a fixed period of time - typically something like 5% for 7 years - something like that, obviously depending on the amount borrowed (and I think most have a maximum limit of somewhere around 10% of income). That is a much shorter term than for traditional student loans.
3) This protects the student if they graduate, and cannot find work that pays a lot of money (they also often include exceptions if the student goes through a period of unemployment)
4) The "250% limit" is a protection put in for students who end up earning very high salaries (where maybe the 5% would be a very high number) and says that no matter how much they earn, if they ever reach a payback equal to 250% of the initial amount borrowed they are done early, and don't have to repay any more. On the other hand, a student who ends up earning "not much", pays very little (But is still considered fully paid, and out of debt. I believe at Purdue anything under $20,000 or so per year pays nothing at all, but still has it "count" as a repayment year).

The end result is that it holds the University (or any third parties they bring in) accountable - they have "skin in the game" (which is something that many folks, including those on this board, have often said should be the case). In the case of Purdue? Purdue graduates around 60-70% of their students with degrees in Engineering or other STEM fields (which, of course, tend to be higher paying). Good for everyone. Those who graduate in a field (whether it be some non-marketable ____ Studies degree, or any other degree), and for whatever reason, don't earn much, end up paying back very little.
As to Purdue in particular, I believe the latest figures show that 2/3 of ALL their (in-state?) graduates end up leaving school with 0 debt - traditional student debt or any other type (including the ISA program). Those that do, and used the ISA, are out of debt much quicker. Yeah, that's terrible.
The reason they don't offer them anymore (at Purdue anyway) is due to pressure from the Student Loan lobbyists and the politicos who chant for "Free School" (even though Purdue has one of the absolute best track records for NOT burdening their graduates with excessive loan debt. Yep, some real geniuses there in Washington). FWIW, there was never a real large number of students using the ISA (probably, more than any reason, because their tuition costs were so low to begin with) - so they, Purdue, probably weren't in much of a mood to deal with the ********.

A panacea? No, certainly not. But an OPTIONAL alternative that some might like? Sure. An option that, to at least some degree, puts both the University and the Student on the same side of the table - making BOTH benefit when they graduate kids with very marketable and economically viable degrees, and the University pays the price if they crank out recipients of worthless diplomas? Absolutely. Some would think that is a good thing :)

For those who are interested, hope that helps.

This sounds like it competes with government backed student loans that routinely rip off students and allow universities to continue raising tuition, fees, build expensive new Taj Majals, offer new useless majors, etc with no end in sight. We can't have anything compete with a system so perfectly tailored towards graft and corruption.
 

Nohow

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This sounds like it competes with government backed student loans that routinely rip off students and allow universities to continue raising tuition, fees, build expensive new Taj Majals, offer new useless majors, etc with no end in sight. We can't have anything compete with a system so perfectly tailored towards graft and corruption.
Speaking of graft and corruption: Student takes out loans under the PU program totaling $40k from 2018-2020, owes $100k as of Jan 2022.
Bet on a Boiler institutionalizes gambling and usury and is controversial among the PU faculty.
 
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PSUFTG

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Speaking of graft and corruption: Student takes out loans under the PU program totaling $40k from 2018-2020, owes $100k as of Jan 2022.
Bet on a Boiler institutionalizes gambling and usury.
:ROFLMAO:
 
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JakkL

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I dont understand why universities don't have a 1 credit required class on tuition costs and student loans. Let them figure out up front that the $25k counseling job will never allow them to pay back $100k in loan debt.
 

91Joe95

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Speaking of graft and corruption: Student takes out loans under the PU program totaling $40k from 2018-2020, owes $100k as of Jan 2022.
Bet on a Boiler institutionalizes gambling and usury and is controversial among the PU faculty.

Nobody moves in on government's turf. Nobody.
 

PSU Mike

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Speaking of graft and corruption: Student takes out loans under the PU program totaling $40k from 2018-2020, owes $100k as of Jan 2022.
Bet on a Boiler institutionalizes gambling and usury and is controversial among the PU faculty.
What the f*@$ isn’t controversial among some element of faculty? Seriously.
 
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