MSU ranked #4 University for free speech

[Emma’s Dad]

What a badge of honor in a time when speech is suppressed and censored on purely ideological grounds. Credit to President Keenum for leadership that fosters freedom. This is more important than football rankings.

 

[PirateDawg]

I agree with everything you've said here except "misrepresenting known facts". Over the last few years the diverse opinion groups have collected their own "known facts library". So, each can argue that they have a library of "known facts" to back up their dialog or diatribe. I believe it is up to the listener to decide if a "fact" being presented by a speaker is the truth or a lie. Let every speaker talk and decide for yourself. That is the American way! Shouting speakers down and forcing your beliefs on others is fascism regardles of the "known facts". We do have laws in this country that go beyond known facts and they should be enforced. I would rather let a group of KKK or Nazis speak in a public forum that I don't attend just so I can watch the news and know who the individuals are and who attended so I can stay away from them. Everyone should have their 1st amendment right!

 

[johnson86-1]

Seems like an evaluation of how comfortable is it to speak out. That's different from free speech, but based on what I read about multiple schools it is still quite interesting.

It's really not very different from free speech. It's different from 1st amendment issues, but free speech is also a non-legal value that is supposed to be embraced on campuses where the accepted response to speech you disagree with or view as objectionable is more speech and an attempt to persuade people through logic and reason, not shut down speech by social stigma or punitive actions.

Campuses obviously aren't very good with free speech anymore. You have faculty that can handle a colleague like Peter Singer arguing that not only abortion should be legal, but infanticide should be allowed up until toddlers have a distinct sense of self (that's a paraphrase from memory that I'm sure is wrong, but he does argue for infanticide being acceptable) but will punish any student that holds a relatively mainstream conservative position on certain hot topics, such as thinking racial discrimination is morally wrong and/or misguided or that humans have intrinsic value even before they are born and are entitled to not be intentionally killed.

 

[Bill Shankly]

I mean, I would hope so. What kind of entitled a-hole thinks they can just say any vile thing that pops in their head and there be no negative responses from the people around them?

College is meant to promote different viewpoints, but that's not the same thing as no one reacting negatively to any out there belief, particularly if it's one that harms them. A conservative should understand and accept that gay people would respond negatively to the idea that they shouldn't be able to marry, while a liberal should understand that a business owner would respond negatively to a proposal of a large tax increase on themselves. It's not "being forced to self censor" if you learn you may need to couch your views a bit differently to avoid some minor negative responses, it's learning to be an adult.

So I take it that you think liberals should self-censor views that conservatives see as vile as well.

 

[johnson86-1]

I recently heard a story from a friend.

Apparently in some class at state the teacher was opening up discussion and the topic was stereotypes. She asked the class to name some stereotypes that were out there so they could discuss “freely and openly”.

Of course the white people kept quiet and I’m sure most of the black people.

But apparently one black girl got the courage to tell this one. “You know how when it rains all white people smell like dogs.” And they all agreed.

I had no idea I smelt like dog when I was wet.

That is really interesting to me. I remember almost throwing up one time because I accidentally got on the wrong shuttle and went to aiken village. I had an empty stomach after drinking some the night before; not a ton but enough that some food would have been helpful. It was before lunch so it was far enough in the day and hot enough that the BO was strong. I got off the bus at the wrong stop and walked because I was about to start retching. I had enough awareness to wonder whether they went around campus wondering why Americans stunk so badly, but it never occurred to me that white people may stink to black people.

 

[BoomBoom.sixpack]

So I take it that you think liberals should self-censor views that conservatives see as vile as well.

In some cases! And no thinking person would deny that they already do. They just don't go around whining about it like cons do.

 

[mstateglfr]

I agree with everything you've said here except "misrepresenting known facts". Over the last few years the diverse opinion groups have collected their own "known facts library". So, each can argue that they have a library of "known facts" to back up their dialog or diatribe. I believe it is up to the listener to decide if a "fact" being presented by a speaker is the truth or a lie. Let every speaker talk and decide for yourself. That is the American way! Shouting speakers down and forcing your beliefs on others is fascism regardles of the "known facts". We do have laws in this country that go beyond known facts and they should be enforced. I would rather let a group of KKK or Nazis speak in a public forum that I don't attend just so I can watch the news and know who the individuals are and who attended so I can stay away from them. Everyone should have their 1st amendment right!

When actual investigation into 'known facts libraries' show they are empty of actual books, then that should be called out. If the economy grew 5% and someone says it was down 10%, that should be called out. If a restaurant sells pizza and someone says it is actually a meeting place for a sex trafficking ring with politicians involved, that should be called out. If someone is still claiming a president was born in a foreign country years after it is shown the president was born in the US, that should be called out. etc etc.
People making up their own minds with incorrect information is dangerous. The pushback should be respectful and not disrupt.

As for people having their 1st amendment right- that is a right to speak, but not a right to have to be heard. Its tough to accept that, admittedly.

 

[Bill Shankly]

When actual investigation into 'known facts libraries' show they are empty of actual books, then that should be called out. If the economy grew 5% and someone says it was down 10%, that should be called out. If a restaurant sells pizza and someone says it is actually a meeting place for a sex trafficking ring with politicians involved, that should be called out. If someone is still claiming a president was born in a foreign country years after it is shown the president was born in the US, that should be called out. etc etc.
People making up their own minds with incorrect information is dangerous. The pushback should be respectful and not disrupt.

As for people having their 1st amendment right- that is a right to speak, but not a right to have to be heard. Its tough to accept that, admittedly.

So you are against free speech altogether then. Interesting.

 

[aTotal360]

Bull Burr mentions that in one of his standups from a while back.

 

[Pookieray]

So, should a speech be submitted beforehand to be reviewed by ???? to determine if the "facts" are actually "lies and misinformation"?

"To apply that to this topic though- I do not think paid speakers should be shouted down and kept from speaking. At the same time, I also do not think lies and misinformation should go unchecked and when it comes to social issues that impact us all, speakers at college campuses should be challenged if they are lying and misrepresenting known facts. This is especially critical since college is a time when so much of one's self is established."

I really hope "one's self" is not established by going to college, 5 years being semi on your own is not long enough to establish one's self in any way shape or form. And not everyone goes to college!

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

It's not even comparable in reality. Liberals and the political left in general will go out of their way to shut up conservative speech. From banning them from college campuses to shadow banning or completely deleting conservative profiles on social media, even trespassing to harass certain politicians/advocates in many instances or out in public places like restaurants or completely blocking traffic when they protest. Let's not forget the doxxing either. Liberals are dangerous when it comes to opposing views and a TRUE "threat to democracy," as they obsessively say about the right.

They control almost all the media outlets, Hollywood, and the political offices of the largest metropolitan cities in all these ways you listed to a fevered point. They preach hard as if they are in a tent revival fevered snake handling session. They control or ban any ideas outside their dogma while accusing the opposition of being the only ones who hate and silence people just as they are doing. They love to throw hateful labels anyone who does not agree while being the primary group who tries to ostracize, shame, and socially destroy or silence whomever they decide is deplorable using political affiliation they support or if there is a current campaign of the Twitter Bot Mob requiring their immediate social destruction and loss of their Career. Such an accepting group of zealots who segregate while crying they are preserving democracy.

/rant

 

[mstateglfr]

So you are against free speech altogether then. Interesting.

Um...what?
You seem to mistake free speech with forced acceptance of whatever is said.

I will make it easy for you.

- if someone is giving a speech and uses accurate and honest stats/points but you disagree with their approach to handling the issue, then cool.
- if someone is making **** up, then their lies and misrepresentation should be addressed.

None of that equates to me being against free speech. Read more post less.

 

[mstateglfr]

So, should a speech be submitted beforehand to be reviewed by ???? to determine if the "facts" are actually "lies and misinformation"?

"To apply that to this topic though- I do not think paid speakers should be shouted down and kept from speaking. At the same time, I also do not think lies and misinformation should go unchecked and when it comes to social issues that impact us all, speakers at college campuses should be challenged if they are lying and misrepresenting known facts. This is especially critical since college is a time when so much of one's self is established."

I really hope "one's self" is not established by going to college, 5 years being semi on your own is not long enough to establish one's self in any way shape or form. And not everyone goes to college!

If a speech is known before it's given, then by alleans it could be reviewed and fact checked.

More likely, if someone is going college to college speaking about a topic then the points are known and if the speaker is consistently violating reality they should be called out for it by individuals or a campus organization.


As for college and establishing one's self in that time, of course more than 5 years can be taken to establish one's views and thinking. But reality is that 17-25 is a huge time for establishing the self and that is also traditionally around the college years.
And of course not everyone goes to college, but this is a thread about free speech in college, so...

 

[Mr. Cook]

"You have the right to free speech -- as long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it" (--The Clash, "Know Your Rights" from the album "Combat Rock")

 

[DAWG61]

Love the ranking but this thread is a joke

 

[Dawghouse]

As soon as I saw the pic I knew Mutt would be referenced. I miss him (a little).

 

[HRMSU]

Out here on planet zero
We live like no tomorrow
I think we've reached the ceiling
They're canceling your feelings
On to better days or so they say
But I don't think so
They're murdering our heroes
Out here on planet zero
Look at me, I'm not lookin' for a favor
I'm just lookin' for an axe to grind
All hail power to the people
Except you, you check the box we don't
Like
Don't like
So bite your tongue 'cause it might save your life - Famous American Philosopher Shinedown

 

[paindonthurt]

Like this made up lie?

https://i.stack.imgur.com/Nhfef.jpg

 

[thekimmer]

I think on ht liberal side it's more than just yelling....

Yeah, conservative people get yelled at if they voice their opinions at or in a college university setting. Just like liberals get bombarded basically every other place in the entire state for saying what they want to say, especially at church.
I feel like people should be able to have conversations about complex political/socio-economic issues, trends, etc without getting blasted. And I am willing to bet, without 24 hour news networks getting everyone's panties in a twist, we could.

There are significant elements on the left that actively try to silence opposing views that is not reciprocated on the right. Nobody on the right shows up at an event and shouts down a liberal speaker or keeps them from even showing up by threats, protestest, and riots.

 

[mstateglfr]

There are significant elements on the left that actively try to silence opposing views that is not reciprocated on the right. Nobody on the right shows up at an event and shouts down a liberal speaker or keeps them from even showing up by threats, protestest, and riots.

Someone hasnt been to a school board meeting in the last 3 years, or a local council meeting.


- Book ban arguments where librarians are shouted down. Thats a 2for right there. 1- banning books(speech) and 2- shouting down librarians(speech).
- Secretly videoing teachers and staff speaking, then doxing them and publicly calling for their firing(often also editing the video).
- Shouting down people looking to speak on divisive topics such as covid. Shouting down discussions about SEL and Equity and confusing them with the CRT boogeyman.
- A large controversial Right Wing organization creating a website to expose professors they dont like/agree with- https://www.professorwatchlist.org/
- Protesting and demanding cameras in classrooms even though that clearly violates FERPA. This is yet another attempt to put pressure on and silence teachers, to be clear.
- Group disruptions of school board meetings and city council meetings that force the meetings to end.


How about some actual reality here?- some on both sides of every issue dislike having to hear the other side's views. Then there are a bunch of reasonable people who disagree with the other view, but accept it can be said. To actually claim one side doesnt try to stop free speech is partly comical and partly concerning. Its actually concerning that you dont recognize whats happening around you.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...eeaff906ef3_story.html?utm_term=.17c3fa7ab2b1
This is worth reading. Its a few years old, but using data it shows that restricting speech is something that some from both sides definitely want, at least at the college age.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

[ Secretly videoing teachers and staff speaking ]

I don't go to either. One because I have no school age children and the other because I haven't been able. Aren't they supposed to be public and the only way people can try to make any changes or voice their opinion on the way these groups operate?

These two meetings went on for years without any more fanfare than usual... Why don't you explain why people started acting this way in the two places they have little to do to affect what those groups do except in these meetings?

 

[mstateglfr]

[ Secretly videoing teachers and staff speaking ]

I don't go to either. One because I have no school age children and the other because I haven't been able. Aren't they supposed to be public and the only way people can try to make any changes or voice their opinion on the way these groups operate?

These two meetings went on for years without any more fanfare than usual... Why don't you explain why people started acting this way in the two places they have little to do to affect what those groups do except in these meetings?

Of course those are places for citizen voices to be heard. There is clearly appropriate behavior and inappropriate behavior when expressing your views. I am clearly referring to the inappropriate examples.

Also, why am I supposed to explain why people can't behave with manners? I don't know why they shout, threaten, and force meetings to end early.

 

[BoomBoom.sixpack]

There are significant elements on the left that actively try to silence opposing views that is not reciprocated on the right. Nobody on the right shows up at an event and shouts down a liberal speaker or keeps them from even showing up by threats, protestest, and riots.

I mean, how does anyone get this divorced from reality?

 

[BoomBoom.sixpack]

Of course I was using that as an extreme example but it could be anything disrespectful. I understand your idea of calling people out when they are taking an extreme and easily provided wrong position, but there is a way to accomplish that goal while still treating the person with dignity. Mocking people and refusing to even engage with people that disagree with you is not the answer, no matter what their position. That is the kind of thinking that has driven the current division. A better solution might be to actually listen to that person, then try to present your ideas to them in a calm and respectful manner. The problem is that this is extremely hard to do so it is much easier to just dismiss that person rather than do the work of building a relationship so that a change has a chance to occur in their thinking. One thing I would implore you to keep mind is the person you disagree with, and no matter their beliefs, has a right to their own thoughts and opinions.

Then again what does the devil know, I am mostly likely completely wrong.

The problem here is that we have many political actors that are not arguing in good faith. When someone is not debating in good faith, mocking and generally treating them without dignity and respect is absolutely called for, because thats what they are doing by arguing in bad faith.

I would bet that there are several on this thread who actually believe that THEY should be treated with respect no matter how much bad faith they act in. That's not how the real world works. Treat others as you would want to be treated. The political right has argued in bad faith for decades, and that bill is coming due. Reap what you sow. Don't like it? Start doing the hard work of arguing in good faith, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and reap the rewards in a few decades. Or do yall expect to just be given respect without doing the work to earn it, you freeloading lazy slackers.