New database ranks 4,500 US colleges and universities by return on investment

[PSUFTG]

It's clear you're ignoring what I'm actually saying, just so you can rage-post more anti-PSU information. Unlike you, I don't have an agenda here. I just want facts and context. There are more schools in the nation than those in the Big Ten, so only focusing on the Big Ten seems silly. Generally speaking, those are all pretty good schools, so ranking at the lower end of those schools, while not exciting, isn't damning in and of itself.

And certain folks were talking about value decreasing. OK, this data doesn't indicate whether value is decreasing or increasing ... it's one point in time ... it's just saying what the value is now. So, what was the data from 5 years ago? 10 years ago? 15? Was PSU even worse? Or better? And by how much? Or roughly the same? Trends have informational value.

I wasn't ignoring what you were saying. As I posted - I wasn't sure what you were saying (what your "take" was). I am still not entirely sure, to be honest.

All I did was post facts, from the survey, providing more context to the discussion. Nothing but that. Which, from what you just posted, is something you would find valuable. So, you're welcome, I guess.

"Relative to the Big Ten"? I can't think of a more relevant peer group - can you? Silly? I don't think so, but to each his/her own.
I could post that PSU actually came in below Empire Beauty Schools in ROI (Seriously, it's in there, you can look it up. When evaluating 4,500 institutions, they cover just about everyone imaginable) but I didn't really think PSU vs Empire Beauty School was the most relevant comp - and thought THAT was just a rather silly anecdote.


I could have posted that among the 65 Universities in the Power 5 conferences (that's a bit larger demographic, which is similar to, but not quite as apples-to-apples, as the Big Ten grouping) - if you like that peer group better - PSU was at or near the bottom of the list by just about every ROI metric, but you could put that information together yourself, of course.

You want the trends (Which, I agree, are important, especially when it comes time to evaluate causality and remedial actions. Of course, one has to overlay that with the associated actions taken over that time), rather than just knowing PSU is at the bottom of the heap currently? You can certainly pull that information together, I am confident.
Let everyone know what you find (I already know - both the trends and the actions).
That said, I think from a Call to Action perspective, knowing that PSU is at the bottom of the heap - now - is probably enough to prompt some soul-searching and some "Come to Jesus". If that doesn't yield some concern (and remedial actions), I don't think anything will.
Do you have other ideas on what it would take to spur some recognition of the need to do better? I'm kind of thinking that those folks who don't recognize the situation now, never will.

 

[Moogy]

I wasn't ignoring what you were saying. As I posted - I wasn't sure what you were saying (what your "take" was). I am still not entirely sure, to be honest.

All I did was post facts, from the survey, providing more context to the discussion. Nothing but that. Which, from what you just posted, is something you would find valuable. So, you're welcome, I guess.

"Relative to the Big Ten"? I can't think of a more relevant peer group - can you? Silly? I don't think so, but to each his/her own.
I could post that PSU actually came in below Empire Beauty Schools in ROI (Seriously, it's in there, you can look it up. When evaluating 4,500 institutions, they cover just about everyone imaginable) but I didn't really think PSU vs Empire Beauty School was the most relevant comp - and thought THAT was just a rather silly anecdote.


I could have posted that among the 65 Universities in the Power 5 conferences (that's a bit larger demographic, which is similar to, but not quite as apples-to-apples, as the Big Ten grouping) - if you like that peer group better - PSU was at or near the bottom of the list by just about every ROI metric, but you could put that information together yourself, of course.

You want the trends (Which, I agree, are important, especially when it comes time to evaluate causality and remedial actions. Of course, one has to overlay that with the associated actions taken over that time), rather than just knowing PSU is at the bottom of the heap currently? You can certainly pull that information together, I am confident.
Let everyone know what you find (I already know - both the trends and the actions).
That said, I think from a Call to Action perspective, knowing that PSU is at the bottom of the heap - now - is probably enough to prompt some soul-searching and some "Come to Jesus". If that doesn't yield some concern (and remedial actions), I don't think anything will.
Do you have other ideas on what it would take to spur some recognition of the need to do better? I'm kind of thinking that those folks who don't recognize the situation now, never will.

I don't have a "take." PSU is good, but not great ... which is pretty much what I thought before seeing this. But beyond that, I'd be interested in the trends.

I'm not really concerned with how they match up against the Big Ten. It's a conference they play in for sports. I never made any college choices, based on academics, because of the conference affiliation or how a school ranks in said conference. Northwestern is the only college I ever considered in the Big Ten, and I don't foresee my kids being any different ... with, perhaps, Michigan thrown in there. I couldn't care less if the University of Indiana, or the University of Nebraska is above or below PSU, beyond the fact that they're just another college out there in the U.S. Hypothetically, if the next time they conduct this study, and PSU is dead last in the Big Ten in all categories, but jumped up 500 spots overall ... I'd be happy. An extreme and unlikely scenario, of course, but it illustrates the salient point.

As to your last point ... again, trends matter greatly ... if they're trending upward, then there's no reason to "panic," as they're already above average in most categories and on the way up. If they're trending down, then they really need to reassess.

If you actually know the trends of the specific data points in this study, over various date ranges (5, 10, 15, etc. years), why not share that, as it's a better indicator of what's happening and what needs to happen. Why make this some adversarial game? Hopefully you're more correct about this than you were the trajectory of the PSU hoops program (which you were so incensed about, that you wondered aloud if it would be better to shut it all down this year).

 

[ApexLion]

First, "worst in the b10" is only by 10 year NPV, and not necessarily the other NPVs (definitely not the 40 year ... not sure on the others). Second, there are more universities in the country than those in the Big Ten, so ... yes. Third, we could have already been the worst in the Big Ten years ago, so, even by your own judgment criteria, that wouldn't be decreasing in value.

yet our price of admission goes up

 

[LionJim]

Maybe I’m misremembering or simply being sentimental, but when I was a student (mid seventies) Penn State had a pretty damn good reputation. I’ll stipulate that what we’re seeing here doesn’t tell the whole story, but there’s nothing that I’ve seen in that report to make us feel optimistic about Penn State’s future. This is a horrible look and, really, any silver lining that might be hidden somewhere ain’t going to be enough to pull us out of this quandary. Blow this off at your peril.

 

[PSUFTG]

I don't have a "take." PSU is good, but not great ... which is pretty much what I thought before seeing this. But beyond that, I'd be interested in the trends.

I'm not really concerned with how they match up against the Big Ten. It's a conference they play in for sports. I never made any college choices, based on academics, because of the conference affiliation or how a school ranks in said conference. Northwestern is the only college I ever considered in the Big Ten, and I don't foresee my kids being any different ... with, perhaps, Michigan thrown in there. I couldn't care less if the University of Indiana, or the University of Nebraska is above or below PSU, beyond the fact that they're just another college out there in the U.S. Hypothetically, if the next time they conduct this study, and PSU is dead last in the Big Ten in all categories, but jumped up 500 spots overall ... I'd be happy. An extreme and unlikely scenario, of course, but it illustrates the salient point.

As to your last point ... again, trends matter greatly ... if they're trending upward, then there's no reason to "panic," as they're already above average in most categories and on the way up. If they're trending down, then they really need to reassess.

If you actually know the trends of the specific data points in this study, over various date ranges (5, 10, 15, etc. years), why not share that, as it's a better indicator of what's happening and what needs to happen. Why make this some adversarial game? Hopefully you're more correct about this than you were the trajectory of the PSU hoops program (which you were so incensed about, that you wondered aloud if it would be better to shut it all down this year).

OK. At least I now understand your "take". Thanks.

Enjoy the onion dip - tip your waiter.

 

[BobPSU92]

Maybe I’m misremembering or simply being sentimental, but when I was a student (mid seventies) Penn State had a pretty damn good reputation. I’ll stipulate that what we’re seeing here doesn’t tell the whole story, but there’s nothing in that report to make us feel optimistic about Penn State’s future. This is a horrible look and, really, any silver lining that might be hidden somewhere ain’t going to be enough to pull us out of this quandary. Blow this off at your peril.

Neeli’s got this.

 

[LionJim]

Maybe I’m misremembering or simply being sentimental, but when I was a student (mid seventies) Penn State had a pretty damn good reputation. I’ll stipulate that what we’re seeing here doesn’t tell the whole story, but there’s nothing that I’ve seen in that report to make us feel optimistic about Penn State’s future. This is a horrible look and, really, any silver lining that might be hidden somewhere ain’t going to be enough to pull us out of this quandary. Blow this off at your peril.

If Maryland is #4, then there’s no excuse for PSU being #14.

 

[PSUFTG]

I don't have a "take." PSU is good, but not great ... which is pretty much what I thought before seeing this. But beyond that, I'd be interested in the trends.

I'm not really concerned with how they match up against the Big Ten. It's a conference they play in for sports. I never made any college choices, based on academics, because of the conference affiliation or how a school ranks in said conference. Northwestern is the only college I ever considered in the Big Ten, and I don't foresee my kids being any different ... with, perhaps, Michigan thrown in there. I couldn't care less if the University of Indiana, or the University of Nebraska is above or below PSU, beyond the fact that they're just another college out there in the U.S. Hypothetically, if the next time they conduct this study, and PSU is dead last in the Big Ten in all categories, but jumped up 500 spots overall ... I'd be happy. An extreme and unlikely scenario, of course, but it illustrates the salient point.

As to your last point ... again, trends matter greatly ... if they're trending upward, then there's no reason to "panic," as they're already above average in most categories and on the way up. If they're trending down, then they really need to reassess.

If you actually know the trends of the specific data points in this study, over various date ranges (5, 10, 15, etc. years), why not share that, as it's a better indicator of what's happening and what needs to happen. Why make this some adversarial game? Hopefully you're more correct about this than you were the trajectory of the PSU hoops program (which you were so incensed about, that you wondered aloud if it would be better to shut it all down this year).

It was billig, and the slithy toves gyred and gimbled in the wabe; the borogroves were all mimsy, and the mome rathes outgrabe.

Lewis Carroll hasn't got a thing on you. Props.

 

[PSUFTG]

Maybe I’m misremembering or simply being sentimental, but when I was a student (mid seventies) Penn State had a pretty damn good reputation. I’ll stipulate that what we’re seeing here doesn’t tell the whole story, but there’s nothing that I’ve seen in that report to make us feel optimistic about Penn State’s future. This is a horrible look and, really, any silver lining that might be hidden somewhere ain’t going to be enough to pull us out of this quandary. Blow this off at your peril.

You are not mistaken.

Prior to Barron, PSU was, generally, in that area around 3rd/4th in the Big Ten in most of these types of metrics.

Northwestern, of course, generally in a league of their own.
Michigan, in most ways, generally 2nd - with Illinois and Penn State generally leading the rest of the pack.

And now Penn State brings up the rear - and has been in consistent decline since Barron (primarily) and the recent iterations of the Board of Trustees have taken charge. And, honestly, if one paid attention to what was going on, none of the plummeting could have been the least bit surprising.

I don't think anyone can give a nickel's worth of damn about Penn State and not care about that - I really don't.

The people who want to make-believe, or who pretend it doesn't matter - they don't care. They couldn't. That would be impossible - those two things would be an incongruency with an overlapping set of zero. That's OK, but it is what it is.
But those people - whatever their motivations may be - should just stop pretending that they care at all. And step aside and get out of the way of the people who do.

 

[Midnighter]

A total aside, but really interesting and insightful podcast in Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History that talks about the US News and World Report rankings (including a bit about their history and more importantly the metrics they use to 'rank' schools). Gladwell mostly focuses on the most heavily weighted metric here - which is 'reputation' - and hacks their ranking algorithim to expose the fraud at the heart of their system. Gladwell sits with the architect the rankings at USN&WR and grills him about the thought process involved with having university presidents and admissions directors give schools a 'reputation' ranking without there being any concerete criteria for doing so (for example - you can rank a school you have never been to!). It sort of flushes that kind of ranking down the toilet (though I'm sure the GrimReaper has known this for years)...

It's a quick listen if you have the time.

 

[Moogy]

It was billig, and the slithy toves gyred and gimbled in the wabe; the borogroves were all mimsy, and the mome rathes outgrabe.

Lewis Carroll hasn't got a thing on you. Props.

So then you don't actually know the trends. That's all you had to say.

 

[PSUFTG]

So then you don't actually know the trends. That's all you had to say.

As I said.

 

[PSUFTG]

A total aside, but really interesting and insightful podcast in Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History that talks about the US News and World Report rankings (including a bit about their history and more importantly the metrics they use to 'rank' schools). Gladwell mostly focuses on the most heavily weighted metric here - which is 'reputation' - and hacks their ranking algorithim to expose the fraud at the heart of their system. Gladwell sits with the architect the rankings at USN&WR and grills him about the thought process involved with having university presidents and admissions directors give schools a 'reputation' ranking without there being any concerete criteria for doing so (for example - you can rank a school you have never been to!). It sort of flushes that kind of ranking down the toilet (though I'm sure the GrimReaper has known this for years)...

It's a quick listen if you have the time.

Yep.

Which is why drilling down to the data (and, fortunately every school that takes part in the Federal Student Aid program, which is for all intents and purposes all of them, has to supply all the same data - and audited IRS filings for most of the publics ta' boot - so it is available) is so important. That takes some effort, but that is the righteous way to go.

Any number of "rankings" - those put out in a mess of tangled worthless nonsense by some websites looking to generate clicks (or even outright payments from the institutions being "ranked"), and even those who are more reputable and, to one degree or another, "bring the receipts", have their own debatable weightings and parameters. Even in the best case. No doubt.

But when your data vav tuition, standardized test scores, graduation rates, post-graduation outcomes, etc etc etc all can be portrayed in the harsh light of facts, and illustrated over time relative to your peers - THAT is what really tells the story. That is the story that stands out against the spin that, to be fair, ALL universities undertake. And that story, for PSU, has been crystal clear.


[It would be better, IMO, if these "services" just sorted and ordered the raw data - or something like that. Some do it better than others. Unfortunately, they all know, and I know, that very few people are interested in really understanding things - most just want to see "Where is my school?" in a numbered list. That's not necessarily good or bad, it's just how it is. But it is not conducive to informed discussion - not without supporting with the data.]

 

[Moogy]

As I said.

Yes, and what you said was nothing. Actually, less than nothing. It was an embarrassing, childish tirade to cover up the fact that you didn't have the information, but still wanted to stand on your soapbox of irrelevancy.

 

[91Joe95]

Yes, and what you said was nothing. Actually, less than nothing. It was an embarrassing, childish tirade to cover up the fact that you didn't have the information, but still wanted to stand on your soapbox of irrelevancy.

Sigh...

 

[Moogy]

Sigh...

He's obviously an overly reactionary, overly negative, irrational person. In my first exposure to the guy (that I remember), he wanted the hoops team to close up shop this year because they wouldn't be competitive and it would have long-lasting negative effects on the program to continue on ... and he saw no reason that they would be playing any time soon due to the brief covid shutdown, even though they picked right up, shortly after, as was obviously going to be the case. And everything about the university, otherwise, has been painted in the most negative light possible, since I first noticed his existence. You can be reasonable, and sane, and still want improvements for the university. I'm not seeing that from this Barry fellow. No need for radicalized crusaders leading the "charge" ... just intelligent, thoughtful folks with the best interests of the students in mind. I don't know if any of those other candidates are the ones, but it's obvious he's not.

 

[91Joe95]

He's obviously an overly reactionary, overly negative, irrational person. In my first exposure to the guy (that I remember), he wanted the hoops team to close up shop this year because they wouldn't be competitive and it would have long-lasting negative effects on the program to continue on ... and he saw no reason that they would be playing any time soon due to the brief covid shutdown, even though they picked right up, shortly after, as was obviously going to be the case. And everything about the university, otherwise, has been painted in the most negative light possible, since I first noticed his existence. You can be reasonable, and sane, and still want improvements for the university. I'm not seeing that from this Barry fellow. No need for radicalized crusaders leading the "charge" ... just intelligent, thoughtful folks with the best interests of the students in mind. I don't know if any of those other candidates are the ones, but it's obvious he's not.

Yeah, **** group think.