OT: Content Warning: Mathematics

LionJim

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
10,683
14,763
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Today marks the 178th birthday of Georg Cantor. My topology professor at Tennessee, Bob Daverman, once told our class that when called upon to talk to laymen about mathematics, he brings up Cantorian Set Theory. “It’s easy to explain and it’s fascinating as hell.” Without further ado:

Consider the set A = {2, -7, 184, pi/2, 23/125, 0, -176, 2.8}. The cardinality of A is 8; we say this because when we point to each element of A in turn and say “one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,” we are establishing a one-to-one correspondence between the elements of A and the elements of B= {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8}. Similarly, C={-8, 3, -34} has cardinality 3 because the elements of C can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with D={1, 2, 3}. Simple idea, not original with Cantor. It’s fairly painless to prove that, for example, the elements of B and D cannot be put into an one-to-one correspondence with each other. B and D are examples of finite sets.

Consider the set of N of natural numbers, N={1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... }. It's easy to show that the elements of N cannot be put into an one-to-one correspondence with the elements of any finite set; N is infinite. The question is: what subsets F of the real numbers can have its elements put into an one-to-one correspondence with the elements of N? To do this, all you need is some algorithm which can match each element of F with a unique element of N, and vice versa. For example, {7, 8, 9, 10, ... }, {1/2, 1, 3/2, 2, 5/2, 3, ...} and Z={0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, ...} can each be put into an one-to-one correspondence with N. (And, it follows, with each other.) Note that in each example you can figure exactly what the next element will be. Use Z to convince yourself that the order of the elements is irrelevant. (Z is standard notation: zahlen means "count" in German.)

Consider Q, the set of all rational numbers, positive and negative fractions, plus zero. (Q: "quotient".) Since, for example, 5/1 is a rational number, N is a proper subset of Q. Indeed, one can readily envision millions upon untold millions of elements of Q, rational numbers, which are themselves not elements of N. Example: -2/532826721 is in Q, but not in N. Here is Cantor's proof that the elements of Q can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with the elements of N; it's a sweet idea.

For each k>1, let G(k) be the set of all positive rational a/b, where a/b is reduced, that is, a and b have no common prime factors, such that a+b=k, along with -a/b. For example, G(2)={1/1, -1/1}, G(3)={2/1, -2/1, 1/2, -1/2}, G(4)={3/1, -3/1, 1/3, -1/3} (note that 2/2=1/1 is in G(2), not in G(4): 2/2 is not reduced), G(5)={4/1, -4/1, 3/2, -3/2, 2/3, -2/3, 1/4, -1/4}. It's easy to see that each plus or minus a/b is either in G(a+b) if a/b is reduced or in some G(k) where k<a+b if a/b is not reduced: -13/25 is an element of G(38), and 12/20=3/5 is an element of G(8). Each G(k) is finite and the G(k) are mutually disjoint: each a/b is in exactly ONE G(k). Here's how Cantor listed the elements of Q:

Q={0, G(1), G(2), G(3), ...} that is, he lists the elements of each G(k) in turn (which is possible because each G(k) is finite). In effect:
Q={0, 1/1, -1/1, 2/1, -2/1, 1/2, -1/2, 3/1, -3/1, 1/3, -1/3, 4/1, -4/1, 3/2, -3/2, 2/3, -2/3, 1/4, -1/4, ...}. Since each nonzero rational a/b is in exactly one G(k), we know that a/b is going to show up in this list, eventually, and exactly once. Done.

Of course, this wasn't all Cantor did; if this thread doesn't self-destruct I'll later explain his very simple proof that the real numbers CANNOT be put into an one-to-one correspondence with N.

I don't know how the layman will react to this but this was a very big deal back in Cantor's day, and he got a whole lot of grief over it; some very prominent mathematicians were very harsh about these ideas. To me it's one of the greatest things ever. Cormac McCarthy has a shrink ask a mathematician, "Is it worth it?" "Like nothing else on earth."
 
Last edited:

BobPSU92

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
17,269
26,139
113
Today marks the 178th birthday of Georg Cantor. My topology professor at Tennessee, Bob Daverman, once told our class that when called upon to talk to laymen about mathematics, he brings up Cantorian Set Theory. “It’s easy to explain and it’s fascinating as hell.” Without further ado:

Consider the set A = {2, -7, 184, pi/2, 23/125, 0, -176, 2.8}. The cardinality of A is 8; we say this because when we point to each element of A in turn and say “one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,” we are establishing a one-to-one correspondence between the elements of A and the elements of B= {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8}. Similarly, C={-8, 3, -34} has cardinality 3 because the elements of B can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with D={1, 2, 3}. Simple idea, not original with Cantor. It’s fairly painless to prove that, for example, the elements of B and D cannot be put into an one-to-one correspondence with each other. B and D are examples of finite sets.

Consider the set of N of natural numbers, N={1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... }. It's easy to show that the elements of N cannot be put into an one-to-one correspondence with the elements of any finite set; N is infinite. The question is: what subsets F of the real numbers can have its elements put into an one-to-one correspondence with the elements of N? To do this, all you need is some algorithm which can match each element of F with a unique element of N, and vice versa. For example, {7, 8, 9, 10, ... }, {1/2, 1, 3/2, 2, 5/2, 3, ...} and Z={0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, ...} can each be put into an one-to-one correspondence with N. (And, it follows, with each other.) Note that in each example you can figure exactly what the next element will be. Use Z to convince yourself that the order of the elements is irrelevant. (Z is standard notation: zahlen means "count" in German.)

Consider Q, the set of all rational numbers, positive and negative fractions, plus zero. (Q: "quotient".) Since, for example, 5/1 is a rational number, N is a proper subset of Q. Indeed, one can readily envision millions upon untold millions of elements of Q, rational numbers, which are themselves not elements of N. Example: -2/532826721 is in Q, but not in N. Here is Cantor's proof that the elements of Q can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with the elements of N; it's a sweet idea.

For each k>1, let G(k) be the set of all positive rational a/b, where a/b is reduced, that is, a and b have no common prime factors, such that a+b=k, along with -a/b. For example, G(2)={1/1, -1/1}, G(3)={2/1, -2/1, 1/2, -1/2}, G(4)={3/1, -3/1, 1/3, -1/3} (note that 2/2=1/1 is in G(2), not in G(4): 2/2 is not reduced), G(5)={4/1, -4/1, 3/2, -3/2, 2/3, -2/3, 1/4, -1/4}. It's easy to see that each plus or minus a/b is either in G(a+b) if a/b is reduced or in some G(k) where k<a+b if a/b is not reduced: -13/25 is an element of G(38), and 12/20=3/5 is an element of G(8). Each G(k) is finite and the G(k) are mutually disjoint: each a/b is in exactly ONE G(k). Here's how Cantor listed the elements of Q:

Q={0, G(1), G(2), G(3), ...} that is, he lists the elements of each G(k) in turn (which is possible because each G(k) is finite). In effect:
Q={0, 1/1, -1/1, 2/1, -2/1, 1/2, -1/2, 3/1, -3/1, 1/3, -1/3, 4/1, -4/1, 3/2, -3/2, 2/3, -2/3, 1/4, -1/4, ...}. Since each rational a/b is in exactly one G(k), we know that a/b is going to show up in this list, eventually, and exactly once. Done.

Of course, this wasn't all Cantor did; if this thread doesn't self-destruct I'll later explain his very simple proof that the real numbers CANNOT be put into an one-to-one correspondence with N.

I don't know how the layman will react to this but this was a very big deal back in Cantor's day, and he got a whole lot of grief over it; some very prominent mathematicians were very harsh about these ideas. To me it's one of the greatest things ever. Cormac McCarthy has a shrink ask a mathematician, "Is it worth it?" "Like nothing else on earth."

Who knew MATHS. o_O could have so many words? LionJim’s word count is infinite. 😖
 

PSU12046

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2021
1,485
2,546
113
Who knew MATHS. o_O could have so many words? LionJim’s word count is infinite. 😖
Sesame Street Math GIF


This is me . . .
 

PSUAXE70

Active member
Oct 12, 2021
150
364
63
The attacks on Cantor were blamed for his mental breakdown. He died in an asylum. Or maybe it was his discovery that some infinite sets have more members than other infinite sets.

Anyway, jai Alai balls come in packages of 8 and 15. The store will sell them in any number. If you need 9, they will give you a package of 8 and break a package to get you one more. For 12, they will give you a pack of 8 and break a package to get 4 more. For 15 they will give you the big package and for 16 they will give you two 8’s. For 17, they will have to break a package. What is the largest number of balls you can request for which they will have to break a package?
 

Waaaaaaaany

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2021
564
1,026
93
Today marks the 178th birthday of Georg Cantor. My topology professor at Tennessee, Bob Daverman, once told our class that when called upon to talk to laymen about mathematics, he brings up Cantorian Set Theory. “It’s easy to explain and it’s fascinating as hell.” Without further ado:

Consider the set A = {2, -7, 184, pi/2, 23/125, 0, -176, 2.8}. The cardinality of A is 8; we say this because when we point to each element of A in turn and say “one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,” we are establishing a one-to-one correspondence between the elements of A and the elements of B= {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8}. Similarly, C={-8, 3, -34} has cardinality 3 because the elements of B can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with D={1, 2, 3}. Simple idea, not original with Cantor. It’s fairly painless to prove that, for example, the elements of B and D cannot be put into an one-to-one correspondence with each other. B and D are examples of finite sets.

Consider the set of N of natural numbers, N={1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... }. It's easy to show that the elements of N cannot be put into an one-to-one correspondence with the elements of any finite set; N is infinite. The question is: what subsets F of the real numbers can have its elements put into an one-to-one correspondence with the elements of N? To do this, all you need is some algorithm which can match each element of F with a unique element of N, and vice versa. For example, {7, 8, 9, 10, ... }, {1/2, 1, 3/2, 2, 5/2, 3, ...} and Z={0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, ...} can each be put into an one-to-one correspondence with N. (And, it follows, with each other.) Note that in each example you can figure exactly what the next element will be. Use Z to convince yourself that the order of the elements is irrelevant. (Z is standard notation: zahlen means "count" in German.)

Consider Q, the set of all rational numbers, positive and negative fractions, plus zero. (Q: "quotient".) Since, for example, 5/1 is a rational number, N is a proper subset of Q. Indeed, one can readily envision millions upon untold millions of elements of Q, rational numbers, which are themselves not elements of N. Example: -2/532826721 is in Q, but not in N. Here is Cantor's proof that the elements of Q can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with the elements of N; it's a sweet idea.

For each k>1, let G(k) be the set of all positive rational a/b, where a/b is reduced, that is, a and b have no common prime factors, such that a+b=k, along with -a/b. For example, G(2)={1/1, -1/1}, G(3)={2/1, -2/1, 1/2, -1/2}, G(4)={3/1, -3/1, 1/3, -1/3} (note that 2/2=1/1 is in G(2), not in G(4): 2/2 is not reduced), G(5)={4/1, -4/1, 3/2, -3/2, 2/3, -2/3, 1/4, -1/4}. It's easy to see that each plus or minus a/b is either in G(a+b) if a/b is reduced or in some G(k) where k<a+b if a/b is not reduced: -13/25 is an element of G(38), and 12/20=3/5 is an element of G(8). Each G(k) is finite and the G(k) are mutually disjoint: each a/b is in exactly ONE G(k). Here's how Cantor listed the elements of Q:

Q={0, G(1), G(2), G(3), ...} that is, he lists the elements of each G(k) in turn (which is possible because each G(k) is finite). In effect:
Q={0, 1/1, -1/1, 2/1, -2/1, 1/2, -1/2, 3/1, -3/1, 1/3, -1/3, 4/1, -4/1, 3/2, -3/2, 2/3, -2/3, 1/4, -1/4, ...}. Since each nonzero rational a/b is in exactly one G(k), we know that a/b is going to show up in this list, eventually, and exactly once. Done.

Of course, this wasn't all Cantor did; if this thread doesn't self-destruct I'll later explain his very simple proof that the real numbers CANNOT be put into an one-to-one correspondence with N.

I don't know how the layman will react to this but this was a very big deal back in Cantor's day, and he got a whole lot of grief over it; some very prominent mathematicians were very harsh about these ideas. To me it's one of the greatest things ever. Cormac McCarthy has a shrink ask a mathematician, "Is it worth it?" "Like nothing else on earth."
Seems Simple enough
 

razpsu

Well-known member
Oct 19, 2021
7,948
10,138
113
Today marks the 178th birthday of Georg Cantor. My topology professor at Tennessee, Bob Daverman, once told our class that when called upon to talk to laymen about mathematics, he brings up Cantorian Set Theory. “It’s easy to explain and it’s fascinating as hell.” Without further ado:

Consider the set A = {2, -7, 184, pi/2, 23/125, 0, -176, 2.8}. The cardinality of A is 8; we say this because when we point to each element of A in turn and say “one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,” we are establishing a one-to-one correspondence between the elements of A and the elements of B= {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8}. Similarly, C={-8, 3, -34} has cardinality 3 because the elements of B can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with D={1, 2, 3}. Simple idea, not original with Cantor. It’s fairly painless to prove that, for example, the elements of B and D cannot be put into an one-to-one correspondence with each other. B and D are examples of finite sets.

Consider the set of N of natural numbers, N={1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... }. It's easy to show that the elements of N cannot be put into an one-to-one correspondence with the elements of any finite set; N is infinite. The question is: what subsets F of the real numbers can have its elements put into an one-to-one correspondence with the elements of N? To do this, all you need is some algorithm which can match each element of F with a unique element of N, and vice versa. For example, {7, 8, 9, 10, ... }, {1/2, 1, 3/2, 2, 5/2, 3, ...} and Z={0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, ...} can each be put into an one-to-one correspondence with N. (And, it follows, with each other.) Note that in each example you can figure exactly what the next element will be. Use Z to convince yourself that the order of the elements is irrelevant. (Z is standard notation: zahlen means "count" in German.)

Consider Q, the set of all rational numbers, positive and negative fractions, plus zero. (Q: "quotient".) Since, for example, 5/1 is a rational number, N is a proper subset of Q. Indeed, one can readily envision millions upon untold millions of elements of Q, rational numbers, which are themselves not elements of N. Example: -2/532826721 is in Q, but not in N. Here is Cantor's proof that the elements of Q can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with the elements of N; it's a sweet idea.

For each k>1, let G(k) be the set of all positive rational a/b, where a/b is reduced, that is, a and b have no common prime factors, such that a+b=k, along with -a/b. For example, G(2)={1/1, -1/1}, G(3)={2/1, -2/1, 1/2, -1/2}, G(4)={3/1, -3/1, 1/3, -1/3} (note that 2/2=1/1 is in G(2), not in G(4): 2/2 is not reduced), G(5)={4/1, -4/1, 3/2, -3/2, 2/3, -2/3, 1/4, -1/4}. It's easy to see that each plus or minus a/b is either in G(a+b) if a/b is reduced or in some G(k) where k<a+b if a/b is not reduced: -13/25 is an element of G(38), and 12/20=3/5 is an element of G(8). Each G(k) is finite and the G(k) are mutually disjoint: each a/b is in exactly ONE G(k). Here's how Cantor listed the elements of Q:

Q={0, G(1), G(2), G(3), ...} that is, he lists the elements of each G(k) in turn (which is possible because each G(k) is finite). In effect:
Q={0, 1/1, -1/1, 2/1, -2/1, 1/2, -1/2, 3/1, -3/1, 1/3, -1/3, 4/1, -4/1, 3/2, -3/2, 2/3, -2/3, 1/4, -1/4, ...}. Since each nonzero rational a/b is in exactly one G(k), we know that a/b is going to show up in this list, eventually, and exactly once. Done.

Of course, this wasn't all Cantor did; if this thread doesn't self-destruct I'll later explain his very simple proof that the real numbers CANNOT be put into an one-to-one correspondence with N.

I don't know how the layman will react to this but this was a very big deal back in Cantor's day, and he got a whole lot of grief over it; some very prominent mathematicians were very harsh about these ideas. To me it's one of the greatest things ever. Cormac McCarthy has a shrink ask a mathematician, "Is it worth it?" "Like nothing else on earth."
1677880170760.jpeg
I will send this to my dad. He graduated in math from Texas.
 

PSU Mike

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2021
2,341
3,855
113
The attacks on Cantor were blamed for his mental breakdown. He died in an asylum. Or maybe it was his discovery that some infinite sets have more members than other infinite sets.

Anyway, jai Alai balls come in packages of 8 and 15. The store will sell them in any number. If you need 9, they will give you a package of 8 and break a package to get you one more. For 12, they will give you a pack of 8 and break a package to get 4 more. For 15 they will give you the big package and for 16 they will give you two 8’s. For 17, they will have to break a package. What is the largest number of balls you can request for which they will have to break a package?
97?
 

PSUJam

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
10,635
19,110
113
A bushel is a unit of volume.
How long would it take you to pick a bushel of green beans when you were 16 and ready to go out with your girlfriend after school? Asking because I know the answer but would like your estimate.
 

fairgambit

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
1,717
5,674
113
Today marks the 178th birthday of Georg Cantor. My topology professor at Tennessee, Bob Daverman, once told our class that when called upon to talk to laymen about mathematics, he brings up Cantorian Set Theory. “It’s easy to explain and it’s fascinating as hell.” Without further ado:

Consider the set A = {2, -7, 184, pi/2, 23/125, 0, -176, 2.8}. The cardinality of A is 8; we say this because when we point to each element of A in turn and say “one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,” we are establishing a one-to-one correspondence between the elements of A and the elements of B= {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8}. Similarly, C={-8, 3, -34} has cardinality 3 because the elements of B can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with D={1, 2, 3}. Simple idea, not original with Cantor. It’s fairly painless to prove that, for example, the elements of B and D cannot be put into an one-to-one correspondence with each other. B and D are examples of finite sets.

Consider the set of N of natural numbers, N={1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... }. It's easy to show that the elements of N cannot be put into an one-to-one correspondence with the elements of any finite set; N is infinite. The question is: what subsets F of the real numbers can have its elements put into an one-to-one correspondence with the elements of N? To do this, all you need is some algorithm which can match each element of F with a unique element of N, and vice versa. For example, {7, 8, 9, 10, ... }, {1/2, 1, 3/2, 2, 5/2, 3, ...} and Z={0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, ...} can each be put into an one-to-one correspondence with N. (And, it follows, with each other.) Note that in each example you can figure exactly what the next element will be. Use Z to convince yourself that the order of the elements is irrelevant. (Z is standard notation: zahlen means "count" in German.)

Consider Q, the set of all rational numbers, positive and negative fractions, plus zero. (Q: "quotient".) Since, for example, 5/1 is a rational number, N is a proper subset of Q. Indeed, one can readily envision millions upon untold millions of elements of Q, rational numbers, which are themselves not elements of N. Example: -2/532826721 is in Q, but not in N. Here is Cantor's proof that the elements of Q can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with the elements of N; it's a sweet idea.

For each k>1, let G(k) be the set of all positive rational a/b, where a/b is reduced, that is, a and b have no common prime factors, such that a+b=k, along with -a/b. For example, G(2)={1/1, -1/1}, G(3)={2/1, -2/1, 1/2, -1/2}, G(4)={3/1, -3/1, 1/3, -1/3} (note that 2/2=1/1 is in G(2), not in G(4): 2/2 is not reduced), G(5)={4/1, -4/1, 3/2, -3/2, 2/3, -2/3, 1/4, -1/4}. It's easy to see that each plus or minus a/b is either in G(a+b) if a/b is reduced or in some G(k) where k<a+b if a/b is not reduced: -13/25 is an element of G(38), and 12/20=3/5 is an element of G(8). Each G(k) is finite and the G(k) are mutually disjoint: each a/b is in exactly ONE G(k). Here's how Cantor listed the elements of Q:

Q={0, G(1), G(2), G(3), ...} that is, he lists the elements of each G(k) in turn (which is possible because each G(k) is finite). In effect:
Q={0, 1/1, -1/1, 2/1, -2/1, 1/2, -1/2, 3/1, -3/1, 1/3, -1/3, 4/1, -4/1, 3/2, -3/2, 2/3, -2/3, 1/4, -1/4, ...}. Since each nonzero rational a/b is in exactly one G(k), we know that a/b is going to show up in this list, eventually, and exactly once. Done.

Of course, this wasn't all Cantor did; if this thread doesn't self-destruct I'll later explain his very simple proof that the real numbers CANNOT be put into an one-to-one correspondence with N.

I don't know how the layman will react to this but this was a very big deal back in Cantor's day, and he got a whole lot of grief over it; some very prominent mathematicians were very harsh about these ideas. To me it's one of the greatest things ever. Cormac McCarthy has a shrink ask a mathematician, "Is it worth it?" "Like nothing else on earth."
keanu-reeves.gif
 

IrishHerb

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2021
428
604
93
I think LionJim should be suspended for a "set" of days for posing this.

No!

We need some occasional entertainment. By we, I mean @LionJim, me and John Urschel and any others who happen to be mathematicians too.

You can throw yellow flags if you want. Even give 15 yard penalties. But no suspensions.
 

Woodpecker

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
3,403
6,528
113
No!

We need some occasional entertainment. By we, I mean @LionJim, me and John Urschel and any others who happen to be mathematicians too.

You can throw yellow flags if you want. Even give 15 yard penalties. But no suspensions.
I agree that it is not suspension-worthy but we must be wary of such a slippery slope. I mean, if we're not careful. @step.eng69 will launch into a lengthy analysis of relative tensile strengths of different concrete formulations.o_O
 

Fac

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
677
924
93
Just read the last 6 -7 posts and was laughing at each one.
Thanks everyone, made my day.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: step.eng69
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