If you were gonna build a deck, would use treated lumber or some form of composite?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
OT: Decks
- Thread starter BonzoGoesToCollege
- Start date
If you're willing to pay for composite, go ahead and try to get your hands in some Western Red Cedar. Use treated joists and posts and WRC for decking, fascia, steps, and everything else you can see.
You won't worry nearly as much about busting your *** when it's wet. You won't burn your feet on it if you walk barefoot in the summer. It won't get wavy in the heat. It will last 25 years. And it will look much better.
You won't worry nearly as much about busting your *** when it's wet. You won't burn your feet on it if you walk barefoot in the summer. It won't get wavy in the heat. It will last 25 years. And it will look much better.
I built mine a few years ago using 5/4 x 6 top grade (no knots) treated pine. I'd probably us composite if I had it to do over again.
Reasons? The pine has a decent amount of contraction/expansion crossgrain and even though I had it sanded (like a hardwood floor), it's still gotten a little rough. But using the top grade of pine is still far better than using the normal deck grade with knots. Also, pine is not straight over some distance, but composite should remain virtually straight for as long as it lasts. Pine needs staining periodically and composite will not.
Reasons? The pine has a decent amount of contraction/expansion crossgrain and even though I had it sanded (like a hardwood floor), it's still gotten a little rough. But using the top grade of pine is still far better than using the normal deck grade with knots. Also, pine is not straight over some distance, but composite should remain virtually straight for as long as it lasts. Pine needs staining periodically and composite will not.
Teak or just don’t do it**
Whatever you go with, make sure it is laid out to easily match the dimensions the boards are sold in to minimize waste and cuts. I once built a 33’x17’ deck. Takes a special person to be that dumb.
Whatever you go with, make sure it is laid out to easily match the dimensions the boards are sold in to minimize waste and cuts. I once built a 33’x17’ deck. Takes a special person to be that dumb.
If any way possible pour concrete. If not and you're going to be there long term (10 years or more), go composite, if shorter term to the cheapest route. Minimize cuts as much as possible. If wood, don't counter-sink the screws too deep as you will periodically have to replace. Put as much thought as possible into the support.
Does the composite not fade? I have some Adirondack chairs made of composite and the paint/finish has faded on them some. There Could be a better grade composite on those chairs.
100% agree on the concrete. Composite boards might last 25-30 years or whatever they claim, but the framing underneath will only last 10-15 years. Deck joist tape will help with longevity.
My house is a slab, but the the yard slopes down in the back. A previous owner built a nice two tiered wooden deck (which is thing of beauty), but i curse him everyday for not spending a little more money and pouring concrete. If i was going to be here long term, I'd rip it out and pour.
One more thing for the OP to consider. You're eventually going to want to put a roof over it, so build it with that in mind.
If its direct sun for most of the day, or even most of when you will use the deck, composite may suck to use. That stuff absolutely pulls in heat to the point that its uncomfortable for a dog to walk on.
Build a retaining wall, use pavers where you would have had a deck. No staining, no maintenance other than weed killer and occasional re-level of a paver if it settles.
Yup. Really got to pay attention to environment the structure is in. I've seen composite decking over some pretty wet, muddy, humid area and while the lack of splinters is a big benefit, I've got to think they are going to be replacing structure when they will have a good bit of life left on the decking.
Personal experience. Built and then maintained a deck for about 20 years. Looking at the next rebuild, which would have included stringers, decking, stain/sealing, etc. I just couldn't make myself keep doing it. Counting on my pavers not rotting.***
I wasn't going to reply since the OP specifically asked about decks; but a few years ago we screened in our raised concrete patio and it was one of the best investements we've ever made. We have a ground level concrete patio for grills, etc.
The TLDR decking info post for @BonzoGoesToCollege
I worked for +/- 10 years at a large building materials distributor. We sold $100mm a year of products out of our facility. 3 of our 10 biggest product lines (out of 100 or so) were cedar, lumber, and composite decking.
A big part of my job was to give PK sessions to builders, contractors, and architects on these products to explain the various features and benefits of each. All have their respective pros and cons.
Ironically, after leaving that world, I spent the next 4-5 years in concrete. Mainly commercial, but I have poured (I ran the subs) my own driveway, side walks, patios, and pool decks. Our company also repaired concrete that has cracked and settled over the years.
Patio vs deck is the first question. Patios are at ground level and decks are elevated. If you are on a slope or coming off the back of the house 12" or more above the ground level and don't want to take steps down, you are likely wanting a deck. If you would rather be on the ground, you want a patio made of concrete, pavers, or natural stone. Since the OP said deck, we can assume he wants to be above ground level.... For patios, I would avoid concrete and go with pavers that can be releveled inexpensively if I am on expansive clay soils or large slopes that are subject to erosion. Definitely avoid concrete if you are close to a creek. Gutter downspouts causing erosion are the number killer of concrete I have seen.
Deck choices.
#1 Tropical hardwoods like Ipé. Expensive and extremely difficult to work with. Not a candidate for many applications.
#2 Treated SYP. Southern yellow pine (SYP) is affordable, accessible, and easy to work with. Not the most attractive species of wood, but still a natural look. Tends to need a lot of attention with waterproofing and stain every season. Very prone to twist, bow, and warp during the first year as the wood continues to equalize it's moisture content.
If you go treated, look for Weyerhaeuser Treater Series if you can find it. The reality is if dried properly only about 8-10% of SYP lumber twists, bows or warps because the location of the tree it is cut from is under some kind of compression or tension while it's growing. Weyerhaeuser Treater Series for treated lumber (as well as their Framer Series for framing lumber) has every board run through optical scanners that measure for grain angle, slope of grain, etc to identify these boards that are likely to move and throw it out of the pile to use for crating, pallets, etc. Really good stuff and if more SYP mills did this to where it became the standard I think SYP would dominate SPF... I digress.
If you can't find the treater series, you must ensure you get KDAT... Kiln dried after treatment. Wood moves as it's moisture content changes. We kiln dry lumber to remove most of the moisture in a controlled environment so it doesn't move on you as it dries in your application (a deck on this case.) With treated lumber, they take kiln dried lumber and treat it in chemical baths under pressure to protect the wood from rot, decay, insects, etc. By reintroducing moisture, it is now going to have to dry again. If that happens on your deck, you are likely to experience lots of warp, twist, and bow. Regular treated lumber tends to still look greenish and feels very waxy. You would have to wait a few months to stain it. KDAT on the other hand is treated and redried to a point where you will have considerably less movement and can stain it right after application.
#3 Composite decking. Not all are built the same. Avoid PVC decking if you are going to have direct sunlight. Azek and Fiberon are the big brands in this category. They expand like a mofo. You will have to leave large gaps at the but joints. It will also tend to crack and split. And it's slicker than snot when wet.
Next you have the Wood Plastic Composite or WPC group. This is Trex and Timbertech. It's made of wood and plastic fibers pressed together almost like MDF. It can come in two flavors... Traditional or encapsulated.
The traditional is the solid mix of WPC moulded into a deck board shape. It is the rolled over by a die to create a woodgrain pattern. The disadvantage of WPC is it is still kind of porous and that can lead time potential swelling and is much more prone to fading, molding, and mildew.
The encapsulated product takes the traditional WPC board and wraps in 3/16" or so of PVC. The PVC is more capable of being painted different colors. The manufacturers still run it through the wood grain die for texture, but the additional coloring gives it a more "natural" appearance. The advantage of encapsulated vs solid PVC is the encapsulated shrinks and expands less, bit it still shrinks and expands. My current house has PVC encapsulated WPC siding. Right now at 20° and cloudy I get gaps of almost 1/2" at a few joints on a 14' wall. If the sun comes out later today hits it, those joints will close up completely. In my opinion PVC encapsulated is the only real option in the south for composite decking.
If you use composite decking, I don't care what the manufacturer says, space your joists 12" apart and use a hidden fastener system. It's still plastic and after a few years of hot and cold seasons, 16" OC or greater joist space will run the risk of getting wavy. You also don't want to ruin the PVC encapsulated protection of the WPC by penetrating it with screw heads everywhere.
As others have said, composite gets scorching hot in the sun and very slippery when wet or snow/ice/frost covered. Another drawback of composite is if you are doing a decent sized deck, they only have a handful of patterns for the dies that stamp the patterns in the boards. On a bigger deck of 120SF or more, the patterns start to repeat and it looks cheesy in my opinion. Also, whatever color you get, you are stuck with. If you decide to paint the house, the deck doesn't get to change it's color to compliment it.
Biggest pro is there is very little maintenance if you properly install a PVC encapsulated WPC deck with joists 12" OC and hidden fasteners. You can literally just sweep it and wash it with a light pressure wash or some chemicals and bring it back to new.
#4 Western Red Cedar. Not to be confused with eastern red cedar or juniper used in trunks and closets. This one is my favorite. It's much easier to work with than any of the others. It's naturally decay, bug, and rot resistant. It's beautiful. There are many colors if transparent and semi transparent stains you can use on it. As long as you don't paint it with solids, you can walk barefoot on it in the July sun. It doesn't need big expansion gaps. 5/4 boards will span 16" no problem. You can change the color by sanding and re-staining.
Maintenance does exist, but it's not bad as you might think. I bought a house in 2011 in Dallas with a cedar deck built in 1999. Some idiots had tried to paint it and it was peeling everywhere. I ended up removing the rails and sanding it with a floor sander. I rebuilt the rails vs hand sanding ever 17ing baluster. I then conditioned the wood and mopped on an oil based stain on the deck and brushing the rails. It took 2 hours to stain the deck +/-350SF. That was the summer of 2012. In 2015 I washed it and reapplied the same stain. That's it. Below is a picture from the spring if 2018 when I was selling the house. It was getting time to stain it again, but nobody was going to complain. Note that handrail to the house painted black is peeling. Treated SYP and it had to be touch sanded and painted every year. Hated that sucker.
So that deck was 19 years old in that pic. Not perfect, but nice for sure. I always found it interesting they built it so close to the ground, but I wasn't complaining. Kept possums and skunks out. Of note too, in that hoyse concrete and pavers would have sucked. The house was an built in the 50's in a part of town with huge trees. I had to rip out the concrete driveway and sidewalks that were destroyed by tree roots. A concrete patio would not have lasted 10 years in that backyard due to the massive tree roots.
Bonus. Option #5 Cypress. Not sure where you are, but cypress could be in play. I would love this option personally. My favorite wood on earth. All the benefits of WRC except considerably denser and more attractive. I could imagine a good cypress deck lasting 50 years
I worked for +/- 10 years at a large building materials distributor. We sold $100mm a year of products out of our facility. 3 of our 10 biggest product lines (out of 100 or so) were cedar, lumber, and composite decking.
A big part of my job was to give PK sessions to builders, contractors, and architects on these products to explain the various features and benefits of each. All have their respective pros and cons.
Ironically, after leaving that world, I spent the next 4-5 years in concrete. Mainly commercial, but I have poured (I ran the subs) my own driveway, side walks, patios, and pool decks. Our company also repaired concrete that has cracked and settled over the years.
Patio vs deck is the first question. Patios are at ground level and decks are elevated. If you are on a slope or coming off the back of the house 12" or more above the ground level and don't want to take steps down, you are likely wanting a deck. If you would rather be on the ground, you want a patio made of concrete, pavers, or natural stone. Since the OP said deck, we can assume he wants to be above ground level.... For patios, I would avoid concrete and go with pavers that can be releveled inexpensively if I am on expansive clay soils or large slopes that are subject to erosion. Definitely avoid concrete if you are close to a creek. Gutter downspouts causing erosion are the number killer of concrete I have seen.
Deck choices.
#1 Tropical hardwoods like Ipé. Expensive and extremely difficult to work with. Not a candidate for many applications.
#2 Treated SYP. Southern yellow pine (SYP) is affordable, accessible, and easy to work with. Not the most attractive species of wood, but still a natural look. Tends to need a lot of attention with waterproofing and stain every season. Very prone to twist, bow, and warp during the first year as the wood continues to equalize it's moisture content.
If you go treated, look for Weyerhaeuser Treater Series if you can find it. The reality is if dried properly only about 8-10% of SYP lumber twists, bows or warps because the location of the tree it is cut from is under some kind of compression or tension while it's growing. Weyerhaeuser Treater Series for treated lumber (as well as their Framer Series for framing lumber) has every board run through optical scanners that measure for grain angle, slope of grain, etc to identify these boards that are likely to move and throw it out of the pile to use for crating, pallets, etc. Really good stuff and if more SYP mills did this to where it became the standard I think SYP would dominate SPF... I digress.
If you can't find the treater series, you must ensure you get KDAT... Kiln dried after treatment. Wood moves as it's moisture content changes. We kiln dry lumber to remove most of the moisture in a controlled environment so it doesn't move on you as it dries in your application (a deck on this case.) With treated lumber, they take kiln dried lumber and treat it in chemical baths under pressure to protect the wood from rot, decay, insects, etc. By reintroducing moisture, it is now going to have to dry again. If that happens on your deck, you are likely to experience lots of warp, twist, and bow. Regular treated lumber tends to still look greenish and feels very waxy. You would have to wait a few months to stain it. KDAT on the other hand is treated and redried to a point where you will have considerably less movement and can stain it right after application.
#3 Composite decking. Not all are built the same. Avoid PVC decking if you are going to have direct sunlight. Azek and Fiberon are the big brands in this category. They expand like a mofo. You will have to leave large gaps at the but joints. It will also tend to crack and split. And it's slicker than snot when wet.
Next you have the Wood Plastic Composite or WPC group. This is Trex and Timbertech. It's made of wood and plastic fibers pressed together almost like MDF. It can come in two flavors... Traditional or encapsulated.
The traditional is the solid mix of WPC moulded into a deck board shape. It is the rolled over by a die to create a woodgrain pattern. The disadvantage of WPC is it is still kind of porous and that can lead time potential swelling and is much more prone to fading, molding, and mildew.
The encapsulated product takes the traditional WPC board and wraps in 3/16" or so of PVC. The PVC is more capable of being painted different colors. The manufacturers still run it through the wood grain die for texture, but the additional coloring gives it a more "natural" appearance. The advantage of encapsulated vs solid PVC is the encapsulated shrinks and expands less, bit it still shrinks and expands. My current house has PVC encapsulated WPC siding. Right now at 20° and cloudy I get gaps of almost 1/2" at a few joints on a 14' wall. If the sun comes out later today hits it, those joints will close up completely. In my opinion PVC encapsulated is the only real option in the south for composite decking.
If you use composite decking, I don't care what the manufacturer says, space your joists 12" apart and use a hidden fastener system. It's still plastic and after a few years of hot and cold seasons, 16" OC or greater joist space will run the risk of getting wavy. You also don't want to ruin the PVC encapsulated protection of the WPC by penetrating it with screw heads everywhere.
As others have said, composite gets scorching hot in the sun and very slippery when wet or snow/ice/frost covered. Another drawback of composite is if you are doing a decent sized deck, they only have a handful of patterns for the dies that stamp the patterns in the boards. On a bigger deck of 120SF or more, the patterns start to repeat and it looks cheesy in my opinion. Also, whatever color you get, you are stuck with. If you decide to paint the house, the deck doesn't get to change it's color to compliment it.
Biggest pro is there is very little maintenance if you properly install a PVC encapsulated WPC deck with joists 12" OC and hidden fasteners. You can literally just sweep it and wash it with a light pressure wash or some chemicals and bring it back to new.
#4 Western Red Cedar. Not to be confused with eastern red cedar or juniper used in trunks and closets. This one is my favorite. It's much easier to work with than any of the others. It's naturally decay, bug, and rot resistant. It's beautiful. There are many colors if transparent and semi transparent stains you can use on it. As long as you don't paint it with solids, you can walk barefoot on it in the July sun. It doesn't need big expansion gaps. 5/4 boards will span 16" no problem. You can change the color by sanding and re-staining.
Maintenance does exist, but it's not bad as you might think. I bought a house in 2011 in Dallas with a cedar deck built in 1999. Some idiots had tried to paint it and it was peeling everywhere. I ended up removing the rails and sanding it with a floor sander. I rebuilt the rails vs hand sanding ever 17ing baluster. I then conditioned the wood and mopped on an oil based stain on the deck and brushing the rails. It took 2 hours to stain the deck +/-350SF. That was the summer of 2012. In 2015 I washed it and reapplied the same stain. That's it. Below is a picture from the spring if 2018 when I was selling the house. It was getting time to stain it again, but nobody was going to complain. Note that handrail to the house painted black is peeling. Treated SYP and it had to be touch sanded and painted every year. Hated that sucker.
So that deck was 19 years old in that pic. Not perfect, but nice for sure. I always found it interesting they built it so close to the ground, but I wasn't complaining. Kept possums and skunks out. Of note too, in that hoyse concrete and pavers would have sucked. The house was an built in the 50's in a part of town with huge trees. I had to rip out the concrete driveway and sidewalks that were destroyed by tree roots. A concrete patio would not have lasted 10 years in that backyard due to the massive tree roots.
Bonus. Option #5 Cypress. Not sure where you are, but cypress could be in play. I would love this option personally. My favorite wood on earth. All the benefits of WRC except considerably denser and more attractive. I could imagine a good cypress deck lasting 50 years
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