OT- Did it just get serious that fast? FED, FDIC, Treasury, and all of Congress just met

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Podgy

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You need to read and understand how these “bailouts” (and that’s a generous use of the word in this instance) are paid for. Any losses to the insurance fund is paid for by banks, via a special assessment. The loss is not shared by tax payers
Most of it is designed that way. Are you saying taxpayers won't be affected at all? Not one bit?
Do you mind explaining how that statement is misinformed? That's my experience and the experience of my peers. I work for a community bank on the larger end.
My questions was about the number of people who think banking is unregulated? Are there really a lot of Americans who think this way because it's not even remotely true. I wasn't disagreeing but wondering how many uniformed Americans are out there.
 

Boom Boom

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You need to read and understand how these “bailouts” (and that’s a generous use of the word in this instance) are paid for. Any losses to the insurance fund is paid for by banks, via a special assessment. The loss is not shared by tax payers
Ok, fair point. But I assume that is only currently authorized for accounts under $250k, right? A rule all these kings of capital knew when they put in more, right? So why are these very rich investors more deserving of a bailout than college debters?
 

SyonaraStanz

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I don't think you realize the regs you are thinking of were wiped away for banks of this size by Trump and Congress (mostly Rs, with a few Ds) in 2018.
You're going to have to be more specific on those regs, because that's not my understanding.
 

Podgy

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"So why are these very rich investors more deserving of a bailout than college debters?"
Is that a rhetorical question? They are more deserving because they're rich and connected. And there's the potential damage to our financial system no matter how unlikely that may be.
 

Podgy

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Does Canada seem to have these issues with banks needing to be bailed out? What's their regulatory structure like?
 

L4Dawg

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"So why are these very rich investors more deserving of a bailout than college debters?"
Is that a rhetorical question? They are more deserving because they're rich and connected. And there's the potential damage to our financial system no matter how unlikely that may be.
When Joe Blow goes under it usually only affects him and maybe a few others. When big banks go under they take a lot of people down with them. That is the difference.
 

Podgy

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We all have to remember that wealthy VC's and companies absolutely had to keep all of their money in one bank in uninsured deposits. They really had no choice whatsoever to do this. It's not like they know about uninsured deposits or ways to insure deposits. They probably had financial advisors themselves who didn't even know other banks existed. They aren't smart like some NBA players: https://www.yahoo.com/video/giannis-antetokounmpo-put-money-50-143319084.html
 
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Podgy

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When Joe Blow goes under it usually only affects him and maybe a few others. When big banks go under they take a lot of people down with them. That is the difference.
That's a great business strategy. "Uncle Sam. You wouldn't want anything to happen to your economy, would you? Better pay your protection money and don't be late."
 

thatsbaseball

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How is a depositor supposed to judge if their deposits are with a sound institution? Does your average Joe need to understand how to look at a bank’s balance sheet and determine if they are in trouble of being insolvent? You’re talking about punishing innocent customers that believed they had their money with a sound institution. And honestly, if you look at SVB, all their metrics that would normally tell you a bank is sound were ok. They didn’t have a ton of non performing loans. And allowance on their loans is in line with other banks. You talk about stopping risky behavior but what risky behavior did SVB engage in that you think should be stopped?
George Bailey explained all of this when there was a run on Bailey Building and Loan. ***
 

turkish

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Ok, fair point. But I assume that is only currently authorized for accounts under $250k, right? A rule all these kings of capital knew when they put in more, right? So why are these very rich investors more deserving of a bailout than college debters?
Very rich investors? Can you provide data to support this identification? I’ve been trying to find same. Could there be other banks or companies (payroll) in the >$250k depositor ranks? I honestly don’t know and was wondering if you might. It could help me form an opinion.
 

Boom Boom

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Very rich investors? Can you provide data to support this identification? I’ve been trying to find same. Could there be other banks or companies (payroll) in the >$250k depositor ranks? I honestly don’t know and was wondering if you might. It could help me form an opinion.
I'll look if I have time. I did see that this bank is odd in that something like >85% of deposits are not insured (as they exceed $250k).

Basically, it catered to a niche of Silicon Valley via group think (they all used it, referred it, etc).....then that same group think took hold with a bank run. CFOs were not doing their jobs and properly managing their risk of bank default, but that was "ok" because everyone they knew was doing the same thing.
 

thatsbaseball

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Ok, fair point. But I assume that is only currently authorized for accounts under $250k, right? A rule all these kings of capital knew when they put in more, right? So why are these very rich investors more deserving of a bailout than college debters?
^^^Good example of either a warped liberal mind OR a troll ^^^
 

GloryDawg

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I'll look if I have time. I did see that this bank is odd in that something like >85% of deposits are not insured (as they exceed $250k).

Basically, it catered to a niche of Silicon Valley via group think (they all used it, referred it, etc).....then that same group think took hold with a bank run. CFOs were not doing their jobs and properly managing their risk of bank default, but that was "ok" because everyone they knew was doing the same thing.
Do you understand why SVB got into trouble and how the change in banking laws in 2018 caused it?
 

johnson86-1

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How is a depositor supposed to judge if their deposits are with a sound institution? Does your average Joe need to understand how to look at a bank’s balance sheet and determine if they are in trouble of being insolvent? You’re talking about punishing innocent customers that believed they had their money with a sound institution. And honestly, if you look at SVB, all their metrics that would normally tell you a bank is sound were ok. They didn’t have a ton of non performing loans. And allowance on their loans is in line with other banks. You talk about stopping risky behavior but what risky behavior did SVB engage in that you think should be stopped?
A normal depositor is not. Somebody with more than $250k has enough on the line that it is worthwhile for them to do some due diligence. And if big depositors weren't expecting bailouts, you would see banks competing on being sound and safe. And if banks were subject to that kind of market discipline, you'd probably see them stop concentrating risk. And they'd probably compete harder for stickier retail deposits.
 
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SyonaraStanz

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Poorly written article with no specifics. It does state the core provisions of Dodd-Frank remain intact, while the new regulations are aimed at helping smaller community banks. I'm sure those core provisions still intact are what I'm thinking, which are requirements of liquidity, capital, balance sheet ratios, interest rate risk management, sound internal control structures, etc., etc. All required and still heavily regulated by different governing bodies.
 

ronpolk

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Most investors are protected by FDIC. Can you give me a study showing that mom and pop businesses, the ones you pointed out, typically have more than $250K deposited into just one account in a bank? Maybe I'm misinformed about the mom and pop accounts in banks.

"How is a depositor supposed to judge if their deposits are with a sound institution? Does your average Joe need to understand how to look at a bank’s balance sheet and determine if they are in trouble of being insolvent?"

We can't. Well, I kind of can but most people can't. It's called trust and FDIC. Open several accounts, like I have, so that all are insured by the Feds. But, you're right that our economy isn't really set up for low IQ people or incurious and lazy people to make bank, so to speak. . Rich, smart people are good at making economic arrangements come out in their favor and rich people know who to contact when they need assistance. Here's what SIVB did according to JP Morgan: "SIVB was in a league of its own: a high level of loans plus securities as a percentage of deposits, and very low reliance on stickier retail deposits as a share of total deposits."
I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing… I’m talking about people with deposit accounts at a bank. I’m not talking about investors of a bank. Shareholders of a bank will absolutely take a loss on their investment, if the bank fails.

But depositors only shouldn’t. And no, I can’t provide you a study. But I’ve worked at banks for nearly 15 years. I work for a regional bank. I can promise you at the bank I work at there are millions of individual deposit accounts over $250k, if not in the 10’s of millions. These account holder range anywhere from a company like Ergon, to a guy who owns 10 McDonald’s, to an old retired couple in small town MS. Pick any bank in MS… regions, trustmark, Bancorp (now cadence), the first… if that bank failed and the FDIC only covered accounts at $250 or less, there would be massive pain in every small town in MS.
 

Boom Boom

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^^^Good example of either a warped liberal mind OR a troll ^^^
When you claim that a simple Q like that is evidence of a warped mind.....that's when you know you've lost the plot, bud. Back off the propaganda, it's either making you stupid or exploiting it's pre-existness.
 
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ronpolk

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A normal depositor is not. Somebody with more than $250k has enough on the line that it is worthwhile for them to do some due diligence. And if big depositors weren't expecting bailouts, you would see banks competing on being sound and safe. And if banks were subject to that kind of market discipline, you'd probably see them stop concentrating risk. And they'd probably compete harder for stickier retail deposits.
I agree with you that a lot of large depositors do understand the bank and how sound they are.
 

Boom Boom

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Poorly written article with no specifics. It does state the core provisions of Dodd-Frank remain intact, while the new regulations are aimed at helping smaller community banks. I'm sure those core provisions still intact are what I'm thinking, which are requirements of liquidity, capital, balance sheet ratios, interest rate risk management, sound internal control structures, etc., etc. All required and still heavily regulated by different governing bodies.
See the Forbes article. The proof here is that RELAXATION of these regs is specifically what SVB was lobbying for and pleased that they got. So it's kinda ridiculous to troll and claim the regs weren't relaxed on them.
 

johnson86-1

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Most investors are protected by FDIC. Can you give me a study showing that mom and pop businesses, the ones you pointed out, typically have more than $250K deposited into just one account in a bank? Maybe I'm misinformed about the mom and pop accounts in banks.

"How is a depositor supposed to judge if their deposits are with a sound institution? Does your average Joe need to understand how to look at a bank’s balance sheet and determine if they are in trouble of being insolvent?"

We can't. Well, I kind of can but most people can't. It's called trust and FDIC. Open several accounts, like I have, so that all are insured by the Feds. But, you're right that our economy isn't really set up for low IQ people or incurious and lazy people to make bank, so to speak. . Rich, smart people are good at making economic arrangements come out in their favor and rich people know who to contact when they need assistance. Here's what SIVB did according to JP Morgan: "SIVB was in a league of its own: a high level of loans plus securities as a percentage of deposits, and very low reliance on stickier retail deposits as a share of total deposits."
Well, depends on what you call mom and pop, but a business with 150 employees averaging $40k a year is going to have a biweekly payroll that is north of $250k. A company that keeps working capital in an account rather than relying on a line of credit can get over $250k and still not be super big depending on the industry.
 

Boom Boom

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I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing… I’m talking about people with deposit accounts at a bank. I’m not talking about investors of a bank. Shareholders of a bank will absolutely take a loss on their investment, if the bank fails.

But depositors only shouldn’t. And no, I can’t provide you a study. But I’ve worked at banks for nearly 15 years. I work for a regional bank. I can promise you at the bank I work at there are millions of individual deposit accounts over $250k, if not in the 10’s of millions. These account holder range anywhere from a company like Ergon, to a guy who owns 10 McDonald’s, to an old retired couple in small town MS. Pick any bank in MS… regions, trustmark, Bancorp (now cadence), the first… if that bank failed and the FDIC only covered accounts at $250 or less, there would be massive pain in every small town in MS.
That's very possible, but hardly a reason to encourage it. Set up a system for interest free deposits to the Fed, and if they choose interest-bearing private accounts then they do so at risk. Simultaneously set up a system to bailout depositors if needed for the economy, but do so at great pain to those benefitting. My suggestion: forfeit of past interest earned times 3, plus forfeiture of any tax break for the next 10 years. Plus dollar for dollar match to reducing student loan interest payments.
 

GloryDawg

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My understanding it got in trouble because of the run. People panic. The issue that caused the panic was only 2.25 billion which could have been fix fairly easy, but the run took 48 billion of cash out of it hands. That was the problem. You sit here and blame Trump, but it was the rise in interest rates that caused the 2.25 billion shortages. US government bonds are one of the safest investments you can have but when interest rates rise the bonds value goes down. Damn that bank for having so much tied up in US Government Bonds. Everyone not in banking system is trying to make hay while the sun is shining over this.
 
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thatsbaseball

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When you claim that a simple Q like that is evidence of a warped mind.....that's when you know you've lost the plot, bud. Back off the propaganda, it's either making you stupid or exploiting it's pre-existness.
A depositor is entitled to access their deposits. A debtor is not entitled to loan forgiveness. Your trying to make an analogy between the two is either warped or an attempt to provoke someone to respond to your post IE being a TROLL
 

GloryDawg

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In 2017 there was 8 bank failures. From 2018 until present there has been 9 bank failures. The change in banking laws did not cause this. If it was bad we would have seen many more than 9 plus if it was so bad the Democrats had the House, Senate and White House for two years. Did they even try to change it back?
 

Boom Boom

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A depositor is entitled to access their deposits. A debtor is not entitled to loan forgiveness. Your trying to make an analogy between the two is either warped or an attempt to provoke someone to respond to your post IE being a TROLL
Dude, this is about forfeited deposits that are gone (or on delay) because the private bank failed. They are not entitled to them in any way whatsoever. It's an entirely accurate analogy. That you don't agree does not make it warped. It's stupid to think so.
 

Cantdoitsal

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This just eased Dodd Frank Regs on smaller community banks and I'm not seeing anything this bill did related to SVB Failure. We also need to take a look at how big investors are so geared towards ESG Investments that Team Biden introduced and has promoted instead of looking for the best and safest investments with attractive returns.
 

SyonaraStanz

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See the Forbes article. The proof here is that RELAXATION of these regs is specifically what SVB was lobbying for and pleased that they got. So it's kinda ridiculous to troll and claim the regs weren't relaxed on them.

I read it, and it seems a bit slanted towards the anti-MAGA agenda. Khudos to this lady for being the first to blame Trump here. It's really easy to point to more in-depth auditing and examination procedures, and that's true. More visibility means a clearer picture, but they were still operating under heavy scrutiny. All banks over $1 billion are. Their biggest screw-up (which is being felt by many banks today) was funding loans so heavily with low interest securities. I don't know that any regulatory agency at the time would have blocked that, and more visibility into their condition may have helped (and it may not have, as I'm sure things were pretty visible, just like they currently are for many banks), but it would not have stopped the investment losses from rising rates and VCs causing a run on the bank.
 

Boom Boom

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This just eased Dodd Frank Regs on smaller community banks and I'm not seeing anything this bill did related to SVB Failure. We also need to take a look at how big investors are so geared towards ESG Investments that Team Biden introduced and has promoted instead of looking for the best and safest investments with attractive returns.
SVB was/is a bank with less than $250B. Read again.
 
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Boom Boom

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I read it, and it seems a bit slanted towards the anti-MAGA agenda. Khudos to this lady for being the first to blame Trump here. It's really easy to point to more in-depth auditing and examination procedures, and that's true. More visibility means a clearer picture, but they were still operating under heavy scrutiny. All banks over $1 billion are. Their biggest screw-up (which is being felt by many banks today) was funding loans so heavily with low interest securities. I don't know that any regulatory agency at the time would have blocked that, and more visibility into their condition may have helped (and it may not have, as I'm sure things were pretty visible, just like they currently are for many banks), but it would not have stopped the investment losses from rising rates and VCs causing a run on the bank.
Pretty ridiculous to defend relaxed scrutiny while simultaneously arguing for a bailout, and doing so by saying well you can't absolutely prove that more rigorous scrutiny would have absolutely prevented this.

If you think increased scrutiny isn't the answer, then provide what you think is (like painful bailout conditions that incentivize market actors to want to avoid bailouts). Because the fact is that a certain crowd clamored for THIS current approach over the objections of another crowd that predicted this result, and somehow you are twisting yourself into a pretzel to take the side of the first crowd.
 

Cantdoitsal

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SVB was/is a bank with less than $250B. Read again.
I thought SVB had more. But shouldn't their investments be scrutinized? They lost out on tech investments it appears due to rising interest rates. But if the bill you mentioned was so bad back then, why are we not seeing more banks with less than $250B going under as well? Maybe we'll be seeing more soon? I dunno. I'm hoping SVB was just due to their Exec's investment dumbassedry and a one off.
 
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Cantdoitsal

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Do you really want the FDIC to just let a bank fail and every deposit over $250k be wiped out? That would ruin a lot more than super wealthy people. Tons of businesses have deposits that exceed insurance, normal mom and pop business. You’d be talking about no telling how many payroll accounts that would be gone and how many businesses would go bankrupt. The feds can’t let deposits not be paid. The US banking system would fail immediately if the feds did that.

So far, the banks that have been closed aren’t closing for terrible loans, like we saw in 2008.
Some people hate banks so much they forget the individual customers. Isn't this the stuff the FDIC is for?
 

Boom Boom

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I thought SVB had more. But shouldn't their investments be scrutinized? They lost out on tech investments it appears due to rising interest rates. But if the bill you mentioned was so bad back then, why are we not seeing more banks with less than $250B going under as well? Maybe we'll be seeing more soon? I dunno. I'm hoping SVB was just due to dumbassedry and a one off.
SVB appears to be an outlier. They had more uninsured deposits, and those are among a class of elites with the ear of media elites that will argue for their bailout. Plus, they were more prone to a bank run because their investors all talk to each other and act together.
 
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