OT: Fighting a Conditional Use Permit

[PooPopsBaldHead]

I live in a residential area in a small resort town. We bought our house this summer and chose the area because its quiet at night. Across the street is a B&B that is zoned R-8. They just sent a letter out inviting everyone over on Sunday evening to discuss their intentions to apply for a conditional use permit to hold "outdoor events." Guy next door to me says they are trying to make it a wedding venue.

That **** isn't going to fly. At all. I have two small kids that go to bed at 8:30 at night. Weddings are loud as 17 and there is going to be tons of cars parking all over the damn place. So outside of the fact that I plan on starting a new chainsaw wood carving hobby that may or may not take place during proposed nuptials, what experience does anyone have with any **** like this? The rest of the neighbors are completely pissed as well?

Do I just shut my mouth at the meeting and get a lawyer? I am willing to spend significant funds on making this happen. It will hurt my property value significantly if it goes through. Can I just tie it up in court or does the city have all the final say?

 

[FQDawg]

I live in a residential area in a small resort town. We bought our house this summer and chose the area because its quiet at night. Across the street is a B&B that is zoned R-8. They just sent a letter out inviting everyone over on Sunday evening to discuss their intentions to apply for a conditional use permit to hold "outdoor events." Guy next door to me says they are trying to make it a wedding venue.

That **** isn't going to fly. At all. I have two small kids that go to bed at 8:30 at night. Weddings are loud as 17 and there is going to be tons of cars parking all over the damn place. So outside of the fact that I plan on starting a new chainsaw wood carving hobby that may or may not take place during proposed nuptials, what experience does anyone have with any **** like this? The rest of the neighbors are completely pissed as well?

Do I just shut my mouth at the meeting and get a lawyer? I am willing to spend significant funds on making this happen. It will hurt my property value significantly if it goes through. Can I just tie it up in court or does the city have all the final say?

I don't have any recommendations about the best way to fight it because that will depend on the approval process in your area. But I'd start with your neighbors - try to build a unified front of people against it. After that, I'd make sure all of you collectively let the local elected official for your area know about your displeasure with the proposed changes. And by collectively, I'd encourage all of your neighbors to reach out to that official individually. Be polite but inundate that person with phone calls and/or emails.

 

[NWADawg]

I live in a residential area in a small resort town. We bought our house this summer and chose the area because its quiet at night. Across the street is a B&B that is zoned R-8. They just sent a letter out inviting everyone over on Sunday evening to discuss their intentions to apply for a conditional use permit to hold "outdoor events." Guy next door to me says they are trying to make it a wedding venue.

That **** isn't going to fly. At all. I have two small kids that go to bed at 8:30 at night. Weddings are loud as 17 and there is going to be tons of cars parking all over the damn place. So outside of the fact that I plan on starting a new chainsaw wood carving hobby that may or may not take place during proposed nuptials, what experience does anyone have with any **** like this? The rest of the neighbors are completely pissed as well?

Do I just shut my mouth at the meeting and get a lawyer? I am willing to spend significant funds on making this happen. It will hurt my property value significantly if it goes through. Can I just tie it up in court or does the city have all the final say?

I will give you my thoughts. I am on city council in a little town in AR so ordinances, state laws, etc are probably a little different. But:

1. Organize with your neighbors as much as possible and make sure as many as possible go to any/all planning committee and city council meetings. 1 person at a meeting is a whiner, a load of people at a meeting is a concern.

2. Do your research before you speak. Don't use arguments that can be engineered away. They will likely have an engineer in attendance.

3. Only use noise as an issue if you are confident that events will exceed city noise ordinances.

4. Good arguments would be contradicting established land use plans, drastic changes between current zoning and requested zoning ((especially if current zoning is targeted for quiet family community), property values (have examples of reduced values in similar situations or hire appraiser that will validate your concerns), parking and traffic, and maybe city curfews.

5. If you can show a legitimate safety concern, that's huge.

 

[Shmuley]

Get the city's community development director (or whatever the hell they call them in Idaho) to send you the section of the city's zoning ordinance that sets out the conditional use process. That section will have a collection of specific findings that the decision-making body (either a commission or the board of aldermen) has to make to justify granting a conditional use. One of the findings, among several others, will be "compatibility with adjacent properties." If most or all of the nearby properties are residential, your strongest argument may be lack of compatibility.

And since these kinds of decisions are almost always political in nature (meaning politicians are calling the shots), a good course of action is to put together a written petition opposing the proposed conditional use and circulate among as many of the adjacent property owners as possible. The closer to the proposed use the better. Find out the name and number of the alderman in whose ward the property is situated. Get all of your neighbors to call the bastard and wear his *** out. Don't just send emails. Call that bastard. Call his *** at lunch and at supper. Call him on Saturday morning and Sunday night. Call the mayor. Make it clear that this cannot be allowed and why. Be firm but nice. And then find out when the public hearing will be held and stack that meeting room full of faces and asses that oppose the proposed use. Voters in number will hand you a win as long as the applicant is not politically connected.

 

[dorndawg]

I live in a residential area in a small resort town. We bought our house this summer and chose the area because its quiet at night. Across the street is a B&B that is zoned R-8. They just sent a letter out inviting everyone over on Sunday evening to discuss their intentions to apply for a conditional use permit to hold "outdoor events." Guy next door to me says they are trying to make it a wedding venue.

That **** isn't going to fly. At all. I have two small kids that go to bed at 8:30 at night. Weddings are loud as 17 and there is going to be tons of cars parking all over the damn place. So outside of the fact that I plan on starting a new chainsaw wood carving hobby that may or may not take place during proposed nuptials, what experience does anyone have with any **** like this? The rest of the neighbors are completely pissed as well?

Do I just shut my mouth at the meeting and get a lawyer? I am willing to spend significant funds on making this happen. It will hurt my property value significantly if it goes through. Can I just tie it up in court or does the city have all the final say?

I wish you zero ill will here, but wasn't it at least conceivable that a B&B in a resort town would possibly want to have weddings? Again, good luck Dawg.

 

[BrunswickDawg]

I'm a zoning administrator for a city - and you've gotten good advice so far. Keep arguments on point and about ordinances and impact. R-8 is typically reserved for low impact uses (single family housing, etc) and you will have a full blown business operating within that structure. Wedding venues are highly disruptive in residential settings. Try not to delve into emotional reasons (the "for the children" arguments) and focus on fact. Conditional Uses are a pain for zoning administrators and commissioners and if I could remove every one my my ordinances I would.

 

[BrunswickDawg]

I wish you zero ill will here, but wasn't it at least conceivable that a B&B in a resort town would possibly want to have weddings? Again, good luck Dawg.

No. A B&B is typically looked as a home occupancy (home based business) and ordinances allowing them typically require that they have no visible impact on the surrounding properties. Wedding and event venues create issues with parking, access, and fire codes that most B&Bs can't accommodate without impacting their neighbors. That's why it's a Conditional Use - they have to meet certain requirements and and have conditions placed upon them that reduce those impacts.

 

[Nunya.sixpack]

See if you can snoop the owners social media and find some off color share they made 10 years ago.

 

[Car Ramrod.sixpack]

Raise the question about parking. One thing that is often overlooked at event spaces and churches is adequate parking.

 

[PuebloDawg]

Believe it or not, this is the best advice. It doesn’t matter what the law is or what is right. If you have public opinion on your side, you
Win.

 

[dorndawg]

No. A B&B is typically looked as a home occupancy (home based business) and ordinances allowing them typically require that they have no visible impact on the surrounding properties. Wedding and event venues create issues with parking, access, and fire codes that most B&Bs can't accommodate without impacting their neighbors. That's why it's a Conditional Use - they have to meet certain requirements and and have conditions placed upon them that reduce those impacts.

Fair enough

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

That is super helpful. Thank you.

I already got ding one. A notice of the neighborhood meeting was required to be mailed to all neighbors within 300' of the property. I only found out from another neighbor and my property is directly across the street. I may just wander over and ask what's going on. Why wasn't I notified?

I will look into the noise issue as well.

Another thing I am focused on is the lighting. We have a dark sky ordinance in the city. We are one of the adjacent communities to the only Dark Sky Reserve in the US and one of only 17 in the world.

Traffic safety is a big concern as well. We are on a neighborhood street and my kids and other kids ride their bikes here. The idea of 50 + out of town vehicle zooming in and out with alcohol being served is not great.

I will get the feel of the other neighbors. But I will fight this legally on my own if I have too.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

Not really. The B&B had been in business for 70 years without an outdoor venue. Never crossed my mind.

https://www.mccalllife.com/real-estate/14106-jwyp4

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

Thanks Brunswick. Impact seems to be the key word. I think the "for the children" argument helps prove the impact, no? A lot of homes in the area are vacation rentals, but we full timers should have a neighborhood to expect minimal impact on our families. This has been one of those neighborhoods that has that element.

I am actually okay with the place having a few events here or there. Hell, I 'll even crash them. My concern is every Friday and Saturday night becoming a nightly rock concert from Memorial Day until Labor Day.

Are CUP's normally reviewable after a period of time if they are granted?

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

Thank Shmuley.

Here's a link to the CUP site for the city.

https://www.mccall.id.us/media/CED/Forms/CUP Information.pdf

I feel like items 4, 9, 10, and 15 on page 3 could be areas to fight them. I may see if we can get a property appraiser to comment as to how it might affect property values.

 

[NWADawg]

Believe it or not, this is the best advice. It doesn’t matter what the law is or what is right. If you have public opinion on your side, you
Win.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I have dealt with stuff where there were people all over town mouthing about how much they didn't like a developer, what they were doing...... None of those people disliked it enough to show up for meetings or make direct contact with the city so their so called hate meant nothing.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

I don't think that will be hard... Here's his photo from his Facebook page.



After seeing that, I now feel I must fight this to the end. A dual if necessary.

 

[Dawgg]

I’d watch a lot of Yellowstone, then ask myself...

What would John Dutton do?

 

[Mobile Bay]

50 plus vehicles means they will need parking. That means a parking lot.

Demand an environmental impact statement. Find out of there is a watershed management plan for your location and if so, is this allowed by it?

 

[hydrodawg]

And look at ambulance and firetruck routes. If the roads are congested who is cut off from essential services. How long is the detour.

 

[BrunswickDawg]

Thanks Brunswick. Impact seems to be the key word. I think the "for the children" argument helps prove the impact, no? A lot of homes in the area are vacation rentals, but we full timers should have a neighborhood to expect minimal impact on our families. This has been one of those neighborhoods that has that element.

I am actually okay with the place having a few events here or there. Hell, I 'll even crash them. My concern is every Friday and Saturday night becoming a nightly rock concert from Memorial Day until Labor Day.

Are CUP's normally reviewable after a period of time if they are granted?

CUP's are reviewable for compliance at any time. So if they are granted one, and it has specific requirements they have to adhere too then it's always open for review. Say they approve it but limit it to 25 guests and 10 cars - count that **** anytime it looks like it may be out of control and call Code Enforcement. Enough violations and the city can pull not only the CUP but the certificate of occupancy as well and shut down the business. CUPs in some states/communities may be allowed to add sunset provisions or renewal timelines.

 

[karlchilders.sixpack]

I'd ask this!

Be sure there is adequate parking available, (not on the street, or your property)

and that they cut it off by 9Pm,

If you can't do anything else.

 

[ZombieKissinger]

Soul patch, cold sore, earring, sideburns that look like a landing strip....

Godspeed.

 

[Cooterpoot]

Burn it down.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

I may shoot a bald eagle and throw it on his property. I am confident that the eagle would understand and be proud of his sacrifice.

 

[MaroonOil]

Find the owner, make an offer & buy the property. What I did when I decided I didn’t want anymore neighbors at my vacation house. I assure you they have a price.

 

[WrapItDog]

Find the owner, make an offer & buy the property. What I did when I decided I didn’t want anymore neighbors at my vacation house. I assure you they have a price.

The OP would have to have Dak money

Address: 201 Rio Vista Boulevard McCall, ID
Stats: 10 bedroom, 10 bath
Price: $1,175,000
This home was used for the production of the 1940 film, Northwest Passage starring Spencer Tracy. This fully remodeled historic gem sits on 4.86 acres with development potential, no CCR’s in the city of McCall.

 

[TaleofTwoDogs]

Burn it down.

Cooter gets it. You need to organize your neighbors. Give yourself a leftist sounding name, like "People for Freedom from Noise" (noise in small print), make signs and t-shirts, grab someone from the news media (basically anybody with a phone cam). Film your group yelling and screaming with a lot of hate and vitriol, then run to downtown burning and looting. The big networks will swoop in and give you all the feel good justice spin you will need. The town fathers will have no choice but to deny the conditional use permit to preserve the peace and save face. Problem solved. ***

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

Yeah. Buying him out is a no go.

 

[Nunya.sixpack]

The OP would have to have Dak money

Address: 201 Rio Vista Boulevard McCall, ID
Stats: 10 bedroom, 10 bath
Price: $1,175,000
This home was used for the production of the 1940 film, Northwest Passage starring Spencer Tracy. This fully remodeled historic gem sits on 4.86 acres with development potential, no CCR’s in the city of McCall.

So basically this whole thread is just a humble brag since OP is "right across the street"?

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

My house is 1375 sf on just under a half acre... Humble is pretty accurate.

 

[Shmuley]

Antifun

 

[dorndawg]

Ok I'm ready to assist you in any way possible, you are completely right and he's outta line. 17 that guy all the way.

 

[Shmuley]

Plant a confederate flag in his yard and the douchebaggery will be complete.

 

[johnson86-1]

I don't think that will be hard... Here's his photo from his Facebook page.

Spoiler

View attachment 22348

After seeing that, I now feel I must fight this to the end. A dual if necessary.

Holy shite. I was somewhat indifferent to your plight, but now I feel like if you lose, we will all lose.

 

[johnson86-1]

So basically this whole thread is just a humble brag since OP is "right across the street"?

The humble brag was the discussion about his vacation home. This is just his regular home.**

 

[johnson86-1]

The OP would have to have Dak money

Address: 201 Rio Vista Boulevard McCall, ID
Stats: 10 bedroom, 10 bath
Price: $1,175,000
This home was used for the production of the 1940 film, Northwest Passage starring Spencer Tracy. This fully remodeled historic gem sits on 4.86 acres with development potential, no CCR’s in the city of McCall.

This is the first thing I've seen that would be concerning to me if I were you. 4.86 acres is enough to add parking with some type of landscaping buffer around it like hedges, and still have an outdoor venue space, and feasibly have outdoor weddings and receptions that have minimal impact to the surrounding housing. They can do probably 85 cars with surrounding buffer on one acre, and claim they won't do music at night or will cut it off by 8 or 9 or whatever and it will start to seem pretty reasonable.

 

[johnson86-1]

Cooter gets it. You need to organize your neighbors. Give yourself a leftist sounding name, like "People for Freedom from Noise" (noise in small print), make signs and t-shirts, grab someone from the news media (basically anybody with a phone cam). Film your group yelling and screaming with a lot of hate and vitriol, then run to downtown burning and looting. The big networks will swoop in and give you all the feel good justice spin you will need. The town fathers will have no choice but to deny the conditional use permit to preserve the peace and save face. Problem solved. ***

Freedom is no longer a left sounding name. Used too often to fight against them. Needs to be something mroe like People for Equitable Exposure to Noise, or People Against Noise Pollution. Don't go the freedom route unless you somewhere red.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Okay, so this thread intrigued me enough to do a google map search of the B&B address. There looks to be plenty of acreage. Some questions that immediately come up are:

1. How much of that land belongs to the B&B owner?
2. Is there room for both the wedding venue and parking?
3. And as Mobile Bay said, has an environmental impact statement been done?

 

[mstateglfr]

This is the first thing I've seen that would be concerning to me if I were you. 4.86 acres is enough to add parking with some type of landscaping buffer around it like hedges, and still have an outdoor venue space, and feasibly have outdoor weddings and receptions that have minimal impact to the surrounding housing. They can do probably 85 cars with surrounding buffer on one acre, and claim they won't do music at night or will cut it off by 8 or 9 or whatever and it will start to seem pretty reasonable.

Yup, thats a good amount of land to add whats needed and potentially not bother residential neighbors much. If they offer to create a parking lot access off the main street so the side street neighborhood isnt bothered, add landscaping to conceal events from neighbors and to reduce noise, and have a 9 or 10pm cutoff, it could be tough to say no.


What is the appeal of that location though? It looks like a rocky barren 5 acre grass patchwork mess with a main road on the west and auto repair as well as a 'disposal' company to the south. At least the water treatment ponds directly southeast of the property may allow for water to be in some of the wedding picture scenes.