OT: house bill on EV car dealerships

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ronpolk

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During and after the pandemic because there was a shortage of new vehicles, dealerships were/are selling for above sticker price. The manufacturers told them to stop but they didn't really have a legal means to restrict the pricing. The manufacturer's plan is to sell EVs at a set price online. No haggling on the price. This cuts out the dealerships. The dealerships can opt into selling EVs, but they have to build a separate facility just for EVs and they have to agree to the no haggle pricing. The dealership lobby has been getting state legislators to pass bills like this so as not to cut out the dealerships and to let them sell EVs without the new terms and facilities set by the manufacturers. Tesla is exempt because they have basically been using the model that manufacturers want to use and don't already have an established dealer network.

I'm not defending the bill. This is just my understanding of how it came about. The government should probably stay out of personal transactions as much as possible. Especially when it so favors one side over the other side. It's usually a recipe for inefficiency.
Thanks for the post. You said pretty much what I was thinking was going on. I don’t have a problem with dealerships wanting thinks to stay the same. I’m sure a GM dealer feels threatened by Tesla and others.

I agree with you this is something government should stay out of. Hard to imagine this law standing up though. I mean couldn’t you make the argument the Apple Store shouldn’t be allowed to operate in MS, based on this same logic.
 

LordMcBuckethead

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Not trying to start a debate on the practicality of EV vehicles. Just trying to get someone to explain to the me the thought process behind the bill that passed in the house (yesterday I believe HB 401).

If I’m understanding it correctly, it essentially bans EV manufacturers from selling directly to consumer in the state of MS. The Tesla dealership would be grandfathered in. Can anyone explain why this bill is needed? Are there not several examples of products where the manufacturer sells directly to the consumer.
Car dealerships are bogus anyway. When Ford cancels all of their dealership deals, the model will be dead. And Ford is specifically working on this right now, because they do not like that they were marking up their vehicles to crazy amounts since 2020.

I understand that Ford and GM didn't want to bother with actually day to day selling of their vehicles. They were in the car manufacturing business, not car selling business. They allowed dealer markups, but now see it similarly to how music artist see ticket sales. Why should ticketmaster have the ability to price out their fans? Same with Ford Dealerships and their ability to soil the Ford name with artificial cost increases, forcing inflationary measures on the supply/demand issues.

In the digital age, people can buy anything with a couple of clicks and a sales manager looking over and approving. No need to have Starkville Ford selling me an F150. I can buy one in 10 minutes over a website.
 

mstateglfr

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The reason between what you just listed here and Tesla is that they already have money sunk into this. Yes, there are no companies that sell and install asbestos containing insulation, but there sure are still buildings that have it. The government can't make you spend money to remove all of the asbestos from your house or workplace. They might be able to fine you (if it's your workplace) but that would only be if someone gets ill due to it.
But thats my point- companies already selling the product couldnt continue once there was a ban on selling it. ABC insulation couldnt continue to sell and install asbestos products after the ban. Along those lines, if consumer direct vehicle sales are banned, then Tesla sholdnt be able to continue to sell since they are consumer direct.
It shouldnt matter if Tesla already has money sunk into this.


What are the reasons given for why this bill needs to exist? Once those are listed, you should be able to see that if legislators were consistent, then Tesla should be banned and not grandfathered in.

This thing passed 104-7. Thats wild.
I eagerly await a bill next month that bans selling cell phones direct, but grandfathers in Apple Store.
 

Hot Rock

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As far as battery disposal, ask me in 15-20 years when usefulness is gone. They say they are in demand for homes at that point and you can sell them.
 

LordMcBuckethead

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Thanks for the post. You said pretty much what I was thinking was going on. I don’t have a problem with dealerships wanting thinks to stay the same. I’m sure a GM dealer feels threatened by Tesla and others.

I agree with you this is something government should stay out of. Hard to imagine this law standing up though. I mean couldn’t you make the argument the Apple Store shouldn’t be allowed to operate in MS, based on this same logic.
Yes. You could also make the argument that Microsoft shouldn't be able to sell a Surface Pro in the state of Mississippi too as they have had 40 years worth of contracts with HP, Dell, Gateway, etc on the hardware side of things.

Ford, GM, etc should just create Ford EV, GM EV companies to sidestep all contract requirements with dealers.
 

hornislanddog

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First post since leaving GenePage eons ago. Yes I know rumor and innuendo are much more important than facts here, but 3 minutes of research can yield the following. Personally I no longer give a rats *** about either party, haven't voted for one in a presidential election since 2000

Nine nays to the bill:

Joel Bomgar(R)
Chris Brown(R)
Dana Criswell(R)
Dan Eubanks(R)
Steve Hopkins(R)
Missy McGee(R)

Jansen T. Owen(R)
Brady Williamson(R)

Bob Evans(D)
 

LordMcBuckethead

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As far as battery disposal, ask me in 15-20 years when usefulness is gone. They say they are in demand for homes at that point and you can sell them.
The batteries technology today can reuse 99.5% of the battery materials. Secondary markets are emerging to deal with battery refurbishment as we speak. The core charge is significant, but lowers the replacement cost.
Also, there are specific warranties that can be purchased outwards of 30+ years to cover the batter charge.

Sit back and enjoy not having to do oil changes for the next 30 years.
 
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MStateDawg

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ababyatemydingo

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Not trying to start a debate on the practicality of EV vehicles. Just trying to get someone to explain to the me the thought process behind the bill that passed in the house (yesterday I believe HB 401).

If I’m understanding it correctly, it essentially bans EV manufacturers from selling directly to consumer in the state of MS. The Tesla dealership would be grandfathered in. Can anyone explain why this bill is needed? Are there not several examples of products where the manufacturer sells directly to the consumer.
Because auto dealer lobby. Nothing more. Nothing less
 
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PhredPhantom

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Chevy announced a new hybrid Corvette this week, Corvette E-Ray.
It'll be the quickest production Corvette ever made. 0-60 in 2.5 seconds and 10.5 quarter mile.
That’s cool. Tesla Plaid (a 4-door sedan) goes from 0-60 <1.99 seconds and is quicker in the quarter mile. Just sayin’
 

MSUDAWGFAN

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But thats my point- companies already selling the product couldnt continue once there was a ban on selling it. ABC insulation couldnt continue to sell and install asbestos products after the ban. Along those lines, if consumer direct vehicle sales are banned, then Tesla sholdnt be able to continue to sell since they are consumer direct.
It shouldnt matter if Tesla already has money sunk into this.


What are the reasons given for why this bill needs to exist? Once those are listed, you should be able to see that if legislators were consistent, then Tesla should be banned and not grandfathered in.

This thing passed 104-7. Thats wild.
I eagerly await a bill next month that bans selling cell phones direct, but grandfathers in Apple Store.
So what do you expect the government to do with the facilites that Tesla built there? You expect the government to pay Tesla back what they paid? That's not going to go over well with John Q Taxpayer.

Do you expect the government to just tell Tesla "Tough $#@$"? Well, how do you expect new business and innovation to EVER come anywhere near where that happens ever again? Because if I was going to bring a business knowing that the government could just change the rules after I've sunk billions into it, I would never sink one penny into it. And neither would anyone else with any business sense.
 

ronpolk

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So what do you expect the government to do with the facilites that Tesla built there? You expect the government to pay Tesla back what they paid? That's not going to go over well with John Q Taxpayer.

Do you expect the government to just tell Tesla "Tough $#@$"? Well, how do you expect new business and innovation to EVER come anywhere near where that happens ever again? Because if I was going to bring a business knowing that the government could just change the rules after I've sunk billions into it, I would never sink one penny into it. And neither would anyone else with any business sense.
I’m not advocating for not letting tesla operate. They should be grandfathered in if we must have this law….

however, the government could just stay out of this. That would be a way to not have to worry about grandfathering anything. Allow people to purchase what they want in a method that they want to buy it.
 

GloryDawg

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Yeah, so its a political move and legislators dont actually care about protecting consumers from the claimed negatives of consumer direct auto sales. If they did care about that, they wouldnt give a pass to Tesla. They are now just creating an imbalanced economic model for auto sales. They are giving an advantage to Tesla.

As I posted- legislators will be inconsistent when given the opportunity, and since they create the opportunities, they will be inconsistent.
State Government will not force a establish business to close. That's why Tesla got waiver.
 
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The Cooterpoot

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As much as I believe EVs are stupid and being shoved down our throats by the far left for bulkshit reasons, this bill is far right stupidity. We just have a bunch of fools running stuff. It's ok to admit it.
 

jethreauxdawg

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LordMcBuckethead

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The new E-Ray Corvette wont be silent. It's a hybrid, not fully electric. It still has LT2 6.2 liter V8 that dynos at 495 horsepower used to drive the rear wheels. The electric motor is an additional 160 horsepower that drives the front wheels. All together, 655 very non-quiet horsepower in a very fast and very quick vehicle. https://www.chevrolet.com/upcoming-vehicles/2024-corvette-e-ray
The added weight in the front will make this thing handle much better than the mid-engine
 

MSUDAWGFAN

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I’m not advocating for not letting tesla operate. They should be grandfathered in if we must have this law….

however, the government could just stay out of this. That would be a way to not have to worry about grandfathering anything. Allow people to purchase what they want in a method that they want to buy it.
You weren't the person I replied to. Mstateglfr wants Tesla to have to stop selling by the model they have been and I guess have to mothball the facilities they have and eat the money they spent on it. That would be the most anti business move ever.
 
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LordMcBuckethead

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As much as I believe EVs are stupid and being shoved down our throats by the far left for bulkshit reasons, this bill is far right stupidity. We just have a bunch of fools running stuff. It's ok to admit it.
Far Left? Come on dude, almost everything about an EV makes sense for the vast majority of people in this country day to day.
 
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LordMcBuckethead

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State Government will not force a establish business to close. That's why Tesla got waiver.
What about Ford and GM that have been operating in Mississippi for say 100+ years? Shouldn't they be allowed to sell cars the same way? New product, new rules. Surely.
 

MSUDAWGFAN

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As much as I believe EVs are stupid and being shoved down our throats by the far left for bulkshit reasons, this bill is far right stupidity. We just have a bunch of fools running stuff. It's ok to admit it.
I'm just asking this an d not being confrontational in any way, I promise. My question is have you ever been in one? Driven one? If so, which one?

I have converted several people who had your stance once they got in mine. Hell, I was in that stance until I got in my friends Tesla. I don't own a Tesla, but it's still a nice car. I think mine is better actually, but I'm biased.
 
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The Cooterpoot

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Far Left? Come on dude, almost everything about an EV makes sense for the vast majority of people in this country day to day.
False. They're insanely expensive, especially with a good charger unless you buy a tiny little car. You save minimally over the life of it. You can't go off road with them if water and mud is the plan. Life span is shorter. Limited charging stations for long trips. Makes no sense for a lot of people.
 

mstateglfr

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So what do you expect the government to do with the facilites that Tesla built there? You expect the government to pay Tesla back what they paid? That's not going to go over well with John Q Taxpayer.

Do you expect the government to just tell Tesla "Tough $#@$"? Well, how do you expect new business and innovation to EVER come anywhere near where that happens ever again? Because if I was going to bring a business knowing that the government could just change the rules after I've sunk billions into it, I would never sink one penny into it. And neither would anyone else with any business sense.
There is 1 location in Mississippi, right? Tesla can sell the facility. Or Tesla can keep it and continue to run it as a service location. I really dont know what Tesla would do with the location if they werent grandfathered into the bill.

To be very clear- I do not think Tesla should close because I do not think a bill like this should even exist. But IF the bill is going to exist THEN Tesla should be included.
If direct sales is somehow bad/dangerous/not what the state wants, then the state should be consistent in their approach and ban ALL direct sales. If they dont, then they are admitting it really isnt bad/dangerous/not what the state wants.

The rest of your argument is just goofy because states have decades of doing exactly what you fear, and yet here we are with innovation and businesses everywhere.
Nobody has sunk BILLIONS into the Jackson metro Brandon Tesla sales store. That store is a fraction of the size of the Nissan and Toyota dealers directly to the West. There is no need to bring BILLIONS into a conversation where it doesnt apply.

Once more, why is this bill being created? If its to protect consumers, then Tesla should be included. If its to protect dealers, then Tesla should be included. Either way, Tesla should be included.

And also once more, since many on here dont have the capacity to understand an argument can be made even when someone dislikes it, I do not want the Tesla location to close. I am pointing out the inconsistency in legislation. I dont think consumer direct sales should be banned. I do think Tesla should be able to sell.
I am just pointing out inconsistency.

State Government will not force a establish business to close. That's why Tesla got waiver.
If a state had strip clubs and then passed a law banning strip clubs, then ALL strip clubs should be banned. Ones already open shouldnt be allowed to stay open.
If a state has pot dispensaries and passes a law that bans pot sales because legislators dislike the crime or health effects or whatever else, then ALL pot dispensaries should be banned. Ones already open shouldnt be allowed to stay open.

Car dealerships need licensing. Licensing isnt renewed and the car dealership cant continue to sell cars.
Same with casinos, bars, dispensaries, etc.

If a state determines a sales process should not be legal, why on earth would they allow it to continue? Thats just absurd. If its so bad that a law needs to be made to stop it, then it shouldnt be allowed to continue in any capacity.

You weren't the person I replied to. Mstateglfr wants Tesla to have to stop selling by the model they have been and I guess have to mothball the facilities they have and eat the money they spent on it. That would be the most anti business move ever.
Oh my gosh. Read my posts again. It isnt that I want Tesla to have to stop selling cars in Mississippi, my issue is that IF there is going to be a law that bans consumer direct sales of autos, THEN Tesla should be included.
I personally want Tesla to sell vehicles. I personally think the consumer direct sales model should be allowed.
Its incredibly ironic that you are citing anti-business practices when this entire proposal is anti-business, anti-competition, and anti-consumer.
 

The Cooterpoot

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I'm just asking this an d not being confrontational in any way, I promise. My question is have you ever been in one? Driven one? If so, which one?

I have converted several people who had your stance once they got in mine. Hell, I was in that stance until I got in my friends Tesla. I don't own a Tesla, but it's still a nice car. I think mine is better actually, but I'm biased.
I have no issue with them other than I think the technology and savings are limited and it's hard to afford a good version. Got a friend with two of the Elon demons. They're nice. But I'm limited by them. Don't shove them down my throat. If I lived in a city, they'd be far more practical I'm sure. Oh, and it won't change "global warming" numbers one damn bit.
 

Hot Rock

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The horse and buggy lovers hated the first gas burners. They stink, where you going to buy fuel, what happens when they break down, flat tires, no roads where I live. I can't trust it. If it's a viable technology, it will take over. If it's not, it won't. If it saves companies money, they will buy them.

Sure, there will be problems but it's already viable enough for me to get one and it's saving me money and I love driving it. Yes it was costly to purchase but that will come down. I remember when people had to finance any TV, now Walmart has them for $150. I still own two ICE vehicles, a F150 & wife's SUV, but we never drive either one unless we both have to be gone or I need to haul something. 15.7 mpg hurts my feelings.

Thing is, EV's are in their infancy. They will get better. They may even evolve to where you may even come around and buy one and they may not but they are looking promising to me.
 
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thatsbaseball

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The horse and buggy lovers hated the first gas burners. They stink, where you going to buy fuel, what happens when they break down, flat tires, no roads where I live. I can't trust it. If it's a viable technology, it will take over. If it's not, it won't. If it saves companies money, they will buy them.

Sure, there will be problems but it's already viable enough for me to get one and it's saving me money and I love driving it. Yes it was costly to purchase but that will come down. I remember when people had to finance any TV, now Walmart has them for $150. I still own two ICE vehicles, a F150 & wife's SUV, but we never drive either one unless we both have to be gone or I need to haul something. 15.7 mpg hurts my feelings.

Thing is, EV's are in their infancy. They will get better. They may even evolve to where you may even come around and buy one and they may not but they are looking promising to me.
But no 17ing president (backed by a bunch of enviro whackos) ever threatened horse and buggy owners with killing all their horses so they had to buy ICE automobiles before they had even proven to be viable transportation. They were not coerced into making their decision by the government. That's the difference in this country then and now.
 
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kired

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In the digital age, people can buy anything with a couple of clicks and a sales manager looking over and approving. No need to have Starkville Ford selling me an F150. I can buy one in 10 minutes over a website.
I think you've got to have some way for people to test drive them. I'm not buying a new vehicle without comparing it to a few others. Our last purchase - we compared 6 different SUVs and ended up with the one that originally wasn't really even on our list. A couple of them were major NOs after we drove them.

But other than that, having to deal with a dealership to actually buy something is a major pita & waste of time.
 

mstateglfr

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But no 17ing president (backed by a bunch of enviro whackos) ever threatened horse and buggy owners with killing all their horses so they had to buy ICE automobiles before they had even proven to be viable transportation. They were not coerced into making their decision by the government. That's the difference in this country then and now.
What president has threatened to ban all ICE vehicles from even being used?

As for the government 'coercing' consumers, that is hardly something thats new. Both parties have given incentives for things they want to see increase in use.
 

thatsbaseball

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What president has threatened to ban all ICE vehicles from even being used?

As for the government 'coercing' consumers, that is hardly something thats new. Both parties have given incentives for things they want to see increase in use.
He stated during the campaign that want to end fossil fuel production in this country as quickly as possible and then attacked the industry his very first day in office driving the price of fuel up and running up the price of a product (gasoline) that is essential to us at this time to try to coerce us into buy something we don't want (AT THIS TIME) is not an "incentive", it's government over reach.
 

mstateglfr

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He stated during the campaign that want to end fossil fuel production in this country as quickly as possible and then attacked the industry his very first day in office driving the price of fuel up and running up the price of a product (gasoline) that is essential to us at this time to try to coerce us into buy something we don't want (AT THIS TIME) is not an "incentive", it's government over reach.



None of what you just typed equals what you claimed earlier. You have to see that, right?
The US ending fossil fuel production /= banning all ICE vehicles from even being used.

As for gas prices, they bottomed out In April 2020 and were rising before the election, before Biden took office, and continued after Biden took office.
Just thought some actual info would help keep this on track.
Prices did jump significantly in the first 6mo of Biden in office.
Some context- the average price of gas in August '21 was the same as April '07. In the middle of the gas price debacle and it's the same price as 14 years earlier under Bush.

Anyways, I do enjoy the lack of awareness that you railed against battery tech getting incentives/subsidies, yet oil and the price of gas is heavily subsidized.
That's quite the disconnect.
 
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TaleofTwoDogs

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The term "Jaywalker" used to be a racist derogatory term. The auto industry has so much power that it was able to use that term for someone walking across the road to disrupt traffic but not in a crosswalk.
The only implication of racial bias in Jaywalking is that blacks are alleged to be ticketed for the offense more than whites. California "decriminalized" jaywalking effective this month. There is no racist bias in the act itself, it is simply a legal term for street crossing outside a designed area (crosswalk). Only California could ban an act as simple as street crossing as being racist.
 

TrueMaroonGrind

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To go back to the original heart of this thread, this bill is nonsense. Dealers are an inefficient, convoluted and costly middle man. They shouldn’t be a necessity and the government shouldn’t say they are necessary.

I remember buying my first car out of college and it was one of the worst consumer experiences of my life. You are there for hours for literally no reason. It is on par with timeshare pitches. They play all kinds of tricks to get you to buy more and there is really no reason to have them with the state of technology today. Buying cars online is the answer to getting rid of them. It will reduce costs and frustration for consumers.

This bill is hopefully the canary in the coal mine for the end of dealerships as we know them today. Your industry is in a sad state if it needs a law to stay in business.
 

The Cooterpoot

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Two of the wealthiest people in MS own car dealerships. They've got enough swing to get what they want.
 

Perd Hapley

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What about Ford and GM that have been operating in Mississippi for say 100+ years? Shouldn't they be allowed to sell cars the same way? New product, new rules. Surely.

Agree with what you’re saying, but Ford and GM have sold zero cars directly to the consumer in MS in their entire history. So in that sense, they haven’t been ever operating in MS.
 
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Perd Hapley

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False. They're insanely expensive, especially with a good charger unless you buy a tiny little car. You save minimally over the life of it. You can't go off road with them if water and mud is the plan. Life span is shorter. Limited charging stations for long trips. Makes no sense for a lot of people.

If that’s your stance, then you certainly don’t have to buy one. People are capable of making their own decisions. But the infrastructure is coming, and costs will continue to come down as production and demand scale up.

For every sports car, sedan of any size, crossover, and even most small and mid-sized SUV’s that you see on the road, an EV application provides both a better driving experience and lower and more hassle free cost of ownership than an ICE application, provided that two criteria are met. Those are sufficient charging infrastructure in the area of primary use, and an acceptable price point that is competitive with an ICE (while taking into account that lower ownership cost - thus meaning its a given that it will always be more expensive on the front end but cheaper over the long haul). That’s it. There is not an exception for any vehicle in those groupings, at all. EV is the superior machine for all of them, when they do eventually exist.

Think about how many of those vehicles you see on the road as daily drivers each day. That’s where we are headed in the near future, with EV’s taking over all that volume.
 
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rynodawg

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Tesla already has a dealership in Brandon with cars on lot and showroom. Rankin county is either the third or fourth largest county. A lot of pull.
I don’t want to debate EVs, but I visited that showroom for first time yesterday. Was a cool experience, wife and I got to drive the Model Y around Brandon for 30-45 minutes. Wife is on board now with getting one eventually. The $7,500 tax credit (available until March) makes it really tempting, but will probably keep my paid off ICE a couple more years. Not against the legacy EVs, but right now dealers for those have low inventory, they are too expensive for the federal tax credit, and the charger network in Mississippi is poor (except for Tesla).
 
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