OT: Lumber... It's been a while

PooPopsBaldHead

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I am certain only a handful of you actually care about this, but I find it fascinating because of how ridiculous it is. At a certain level, this effects you every bit as much as oil prices. Lumber prices are a driving factor of new home construction costs. When lumber is up, all other building materials follow suit and new home prices increase. When new home prices increase, so do existing home prices. So if you own a home, you own lumber and the continued strength of lumber is a very positive indicator of continued strength in home values. On the flip side, if you don't own a home, you are going to pay an extra 10-20% when you do buy one unfortunately. There are no signs of this correcting anytime in the near future either.

So unlike oil, we do not buy lumber at a pump every week. But every 7 years or so you the average homeowner does trade lumber in some form or fashion when they sell a home. From 1993-2020 lumber stayed in what we call a supercycle where the futures market stayed in a range where the high average was about $400 per 1,000 bf. When lumber is at $400 per 1,000 board feet (MBF), the framing package on a 2,000 sf home is about $12k. Today lumber is back up over $1000 per MBF and that framing package is worth more like $30K+. That's an $18K difference in about 18 months. If gas increases $2.00 a gallon overnight, it will take the average driver 14 years to add up to $18K in additional gas spending.

Luckily with lumber its not just an expense as most of us own homes. But other than last spring, there is very rarely public discussion about lumber prices. Where we currently sit today is the equivalent of $250/barrel for oil.... Oil is currently around $70.



Back to what lumber is doing. We bottomed in August like I expected and prices have nearly followed my projection to the t until about 3 weeks ago. Major flooding in BC took out some highways and railroads that are critical to lumber supply chain issues. So we have seen prices spike faster than I would have expected, but it was always going to climb back up with the demand side factors the housing industry has and the curtailments the mills needed to get some maintenance completed. The dashed yellow line is my forecast from August on how lumber futures will behave long term. Currently we are up 124% from the August low.

View attachment 23239

That's the futures market, below is the data from showing real world wholesale prices. As you can see the panic is back. Prices are about 50% higher than they were this time last year. With that said, I think last year lumberyards were sitting on their hands thinking lumber would come back down and it kept going the other way until at the very last minute everyone started buying to cover orders. That shouldn't be as bad this year because, hey... $1000 lumber isn't so crazy anymore. Dealers and wholesalers aren't going to get caught off guard so bad this coming spring, but transportation may cause some problems none the less.

View attachment 23240

My guess is we hit a peak in January-February somewhere between the previous peak and my August forecast. It will come down from there but nowhere near as low as it was in August. OSB has not been as bad as lumber so far, which is good, but if the box stores start piling in like they did last year, it will skyrocket too.

This is bullish for housing prices. We still have an imbalance of housing as the big group of millennials come to home buying age and unless PE groups and hedge funds that bought up all of the rental properties dump them overnight, don't expect home prices to come down anytime soon. Existing home prices and new home prices are directly correlated. Until we are able to build more affordable homes, potential buyers are going to drive up the prices of existing homes... not to the same extent as before, but slightly to modestly higher than usual in most cases.

https://www.noradarealestate.com/blog/housing-market-predictions/

Yeehaw all you homeowners. You are going to have another solid appreciation year in 2022.
 

SyonaraStanz

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The only reason prices are spiking is because I’m starting a home addition…… 17 me.
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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I think we need to reassess our home size and finishes moving forward. DCD you're about my age and I swear when I was a kid, nobody had more than 3 bedrooms and 2000 sf. The average is now 2300 sf on new construction vs 1600 in 1975.

I think you can design smaller, more functional homes and cut a lot of cost. Nobody needs a guest room... Put them in laws in a hotel. If they don't want to stay in a hotel, I will be glad to let them have my room and I will go sleep in the hotel and they can take care of the kids

I also see a lot of money spent on finishes that are unnecessary. $300 entry door hardware and $400 facucets. That crap adds up quick.
 

Jsndawg

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I read last week that the FJB administration was increasing to tariffs on Canadian lumber drastically
That has to have an effect on prices
 

Eleven Bravo

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I follow the market some. You were correct in that prices for dimension lumber went down some in early September. I needed to replace the floor in a 16’ trailer-I priced the pressure-treated lumber in August and decided against it. I went back and priced it in early October and the price had dropped by over 30%, so I went ahead and purchased the 2x10’s I needed at that time. My wife wants me to turn a small 8x8’ room into a pantry, so I priced the birch plywood at that time @$66/sheet for 3/4” sheets. I went back a couple of weeks later and that same plywood is priced at $97/sheet. It’s still priced at $97/sheet today. It’s not going to make any difference as I’m gonna have to go ahead and bite the bullet on it. The other side of the coin is that I’m sitting here with a little over 400 acres of timber that is past ready for thinning. There is some pulpwood, a lot of “chip and saw” and some saw logs-and these criminals (I swear it’s organized crime) wanting to buy my timber are offering prices less than what they were offering 15 years ago. I’ll sit here and let a storm put the stuff on the ground before I’ll bend over for these mother17’ers. The only other thing that has affected the retail market locally is the unexpected demand generated by Hurricane Ida. Demand where I live in southwest Mississippi has been affected by people coming up from nearby southeastern Louisiana and buying materials locally.
 

DesotoCountyDawg

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Rooms in general in houses are just bigger than before and you also have to factor in closet space and storage space for everyones ****. The house I bought when I graduated from State was an older home built in the 50s with small rooms and tiny closets. The only bathroom was probably less than 50 sq feet. We renovated it and added on to make things bigger but not having any closets of any size was pretty rough once we had twins. There was crap laying everywhere and we had no garage so we just decided to move to a newer home with more space.
 

Cooterpoot

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And this is part of what's driving the new higher lending limits too. Some folks going to be in a bind down the road.
Crazy timber prices are still down if demand is the real driving force. It's not unlike the beef market.
 

57stratdawg

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Hotel rooms too. You ever stayed in a 100 year old hotel? The rooms are tiny.

Honestly, people are bigger now as well. Our access to cheap energy has manifested itself all throughout the world around us. If Christopher Columbus saw America today, he would think we were giants.
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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It's minimal. It's a doubling of the tariff. Trump administration put a 20% tariff on Canadian lumber in 2017 and cut it to 9% last December. Biden administration is now wanting to take it back up to 18%.

It doesn't really move the needle in current times. After the reduction from 20% to 9% last December, lumber prices rose 173% over the next 6 months... It's currently all about supply and demand.

Canada imports account for about 25-30% of lumber. So a 9% increase in tariffs would be around a 3% total market effect.

The original 20% in 2017 spooked the markets because traders thought Canada may be more cost effective shipping to China and it would cause shortages in the US. The proved to not be an issue though.


With all that said, if Canada wants to subsize raw materials for us, great. It has minimal effects on us business as there is very little crossover in species and usage. It does help make home construction cheaper though.
 
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The suggestion that building a smaller house is the answer to affordable housing is not always supported by apprised values.

I just finished building my personal custom house, had I built it smaller, I would be upside down in cost Vs. Appraisal.

The appraisals have to go up with costs, but they only follow sales.

It will be interesting to see if this high housing market influences young couples decision to get married or live with in-laws etc.

I hope the American dream of home ownership stays within reach for young adults.
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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We have covered this before, but the big problems are 3 fold.

Number 1. Sawmills are at capacity and have been for years. They can't really take anymore timber. A whole lot of Mills went under in 2007-11. It will take years to bring more capacity online.

Number 2. CRP and other government programs in the 80's and 90's put way too much timber in the ground. That stuff reached maturity after the housing bubble burst. It will take 20+ years to take the excess timber supply out of the market on the South.

Number 3. Southern yellow pine has been killed in construction. About 10 years ago, spans were reduced almost 25% on #2 southern yellow pine. So a 2*12 floor that could span 20' as a floor joist can now only be used for 15'. This happened as big open floor plans came into style. SYP had been mutated to grow faster, but that's at the expense of stability and strength.
 

Dawg1976

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Appreciation is great but it also affects insurance cost. My homeowners policy just went up 20%.....replacement cost increases being used as an excuse along with the hurricane effect.
 

Emma’s Dad

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This is fascinating. Thanks JLS for the tutorial, and I mean that. Although I’m glad to be an owner and not looking to sell or buy, I wonder at what point inflated costs kill the market fir building and buying/selling. Yes, inflation is out of control and some are making more money in less valuable dollars to spend on overpriced homes, but it seems something has to give.
 

Emma’s Dad

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And why, if there is such an excess supply in southern timber market that could take 20 yrs to clear, are lower prices not being reflected?
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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Commodity prices are purely driven by supply and demand. More lumber is wanted than is available, so the only way to secure it is to outbid someone else. Eventually buyers say, no thanks. Then prices start falling. When prices get too low, Mills say no thanks and quit cutting lumber. I was convinced earlier this summer that kills would not let prices fall below the old ceiling and that thought has been confirmed.

The typical cycle is over reaction in both directions for a few quarters/years until a range is established. Lumber enters very long ranges we call super cycles. The futures market is starting a new super cycle right now in my opinion.

The previous cycle was from 93-2020 where lumber traded in a range from $220-$500 per thousand board feet. Before that it was a super cycle from 1972-1993 where lumber traded from $80-$220 per mbf. My thesis is we start a new super cycle that creates a range from $500-$1100/ mbf for the next 20 years.

The chart below shows monthly lumber prices for the last 50 years. You can see the old ceiling becomes the new floor.

View attachment 23242

Also, as far as price gouging I have read/heard etc... Lumber is up 124% from January 93 until today. That's 3% per year. Average new cars are up 247% in that same time frame. So the problem with commodities is they have volatility on short or intermediate timelines that make things look crazy, but you have to look at decades to see real pricing trends.
 

ronpolk

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And why, if there is such an excess supply in southern timber market that could take 20 yrs to clear, are lower prices not being reflected?

There aren’t enough sawmills to process the trees.

I don’t operate in the sawmill industry but I’ve seen several of them from a banking perspective. It’s a very capital intensive industry and a very cyclical industry. You got to have an operator who knows how to build a balance sheet and live off that balance sheet when times are not good. It’s also very hard to build a good balance sheet in such a capital intensive industry. It’s just a hard industry to operate in and on top of that banks are scared to lend too much to a saw mill because of losses taken during the housing downturn.

I just don’t see a whole lot of sawmills coming online.
 

Cooterpoot

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Jack up the interest rates and the costs to build immediately drop. Problem is, rates are so low it'll take a big increase that the market can't handle. It should start this month. But Yellen is a mad woman.
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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I think it's neighborhood by neighborhood, community by community, city by city on appraisal.

I guess there is a scenario where you could end up in an bad spot if you built a small house in a bigger house neighborhood.

My thought is more around everyone starting to downsize a bit and use smarter design.
 

Crazy Cotton

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Money was so much more expensive to borrow back in the 80s and 90s. I remember my folks got a 17% interest rate on the house we moved to in early 80s. If I borrow 250K right now at 2.5%, I'm paying 988 bucks on as 30 year note. My parents would have paid 3,564 dollars a month for that same money at a 17% interest rate. You had to buy cheap little houses just to make the payment. Same with the car note, credit cards, student loans, etc.

Still lots of small houses being built and sold, mostly by the manufactured housing industry. My wife works for the biggest one, plants all over the country. They're struggling with a 6-12 month backlogs in many parts of the country right now.
 

Quincy A. Wagstaff

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median home price / median household income

An interesting number to me is the ratio between the median home price and median household income. It peaked in 2006 during the housing bubble at 4.71. It bottomed out after the financial crisis in 2011 at 3.54.

It is now 5.08.
View attachment 23244
 

Grove Sh*tter

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Hey Joe Lee, I bought some osb at $28/ sheet while it was still surging in the spring. I still have most of it and actually added at $33/ sheet. Now it's at $17 locally. I was thinking about buying some more to squirrel away for the coming year.

I appreciate your insight in the historical trends and defining the seasonal trends by the historical.

Do you see another crazy spike last this summer for this year?
 

dorndawg

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Sep 10, 2012
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I follow the market some. You were correct in that prices for dimension lumber went down some in early September. I needed to replace the floor in a 16’ trailer-I priced the pressure-treated lumber in August and decided against it. I went back and priced it in early October and the price had dropped by over 30%, so I went ahead and purchased the 2x10’s I needed at that time. My wife wants me to turn a small 8x8’ room into a pantry, so I priced the birch plywood at that time @$66/sheet for 3/4” sheets. I went back a couple of weeks later and that same plywood is priced at $97/sheet. It’s still priced at $97/sheet today. It’s not going to make any difference as I’m gonna have to go ahead and bite the bullet on it. The other side of the coin is that I’m sitting here with a little over 400 acres of timber that is past ready for thinning. There is some pulpwood, a lot of “chip and saw” and some saw logs-and these criminals (I swear it’s organized crime) wanting to buy my timber are offering prices less than what they were offering 15 years ago. I’ll sit here and let a storm put the stuff on the ground before I’ll bend over for these mother17’ers. The only other thing that has affected the retail market locally is the unexpected demand generated by Hurricane Ida. Demand where I live in southwest Mississippi has been affected by people coming up from nearby southeastern Louisiana and buying materials locally.


Go build a sawmill.
 

dorndawg

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Commodity prices are purely driven by supply and demand. More lumber is wanted than is available, so the only way to secure it is to outbid someone else. Eventually buyers say, no thanks. Then prices start falling. When prices get too low, Mills say no thanks and quit cutting lumber. I was convinced earlier this summer that kills would not let prices fall below the old ceiling and that thought has been confirmed.

The typical cycle is over reaction in both directions for a few quarters/years until a range is established. Lumber enters very long ranges we call super cycles. The futures market is starting a new super cycle right now in my opinion.

The previous cycle was from 93-2020 where lumber traded in a range from $220-$500 per thousand board feet. Before that it was a super cycle from 1972-1993 where lumber traded from $80-$220 per mbf. My thesis is we start a new super cycle that creates a range from $500-$1100/ mbf for the next 20 years.

The chart below shows monthly lumber prices for the last 50 years. You can see the old ceiling becomes the new floor.

View attachment 23242

Also, as far as price gouging I have read/heard etc... Lumber is up 124% from January 93 until today. That's 3% per year. Average new cars are up 247% in that same time frame. So the problem with commodities is they have volatility on short or intermediate timelines that make things look crazy, but you have to look at decades to see real pricing trends.


Sawmills are also extremely labor constrained. While not as physically demanding as in the past, it's still hard, loud work, hot in the summer and cold in the winter. Also most mills aren't in in awesome locations
 

dorndawg

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Hey Joe Lee, I bought some osb at $28/ sheet while it was still surging in the spring. I still have most of it and actually added at $33/ sheet. Now it's at $17 locally. I was thinking about buying some more to squirrel away for the coming year.

I appreciate your insight in the historical trends and defining the seasonal trends by the historical.

Do you see another crazy spike last this summer for this year?


I'd recommend to you or anyone wanting to do a project involving lots of lumber in the next 6 months, buy it now.
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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I think it's neighborhood by neighborhood, community by community, city by city on appraisal.

I guess there is a scenario where you could end up in an bad spot if you built a small house in a bigger house neighborhood.

The problem is not with being a small house in a bigger house neighborhood, it's that the cost per sq ft to build usually goes up as the house gets smaller, and some markets just won't support a $/sq ft that you can build a small house for. Putting the second floor in a 1 1/2 story house doesn't cost nearly as much per sq foot as the rest of the house, but that sq footage counts almost as much as the sq footage on the first floor in appraisals. So even though you're spending more money, you have to come out of pocket less cash because of the better appraisal.



My thought is more around everyone starting to downsize a bit and use smarter design.

You would think that with the average family size getting smaller, people would not want houses as big, and I think that's happening some. Maybe it's just my market, but I don't see McMansions getting built anymore. Most tract homes seem to be in the 1800 to 3000 range now, with probably the bulk of them in that 2200-2500 sq ft range, which still brings the median size up but I think probably reflects a reduction in the upper end.

But overall, I don't see people really downsizing other than the McMansions not getting built. Tried to get our inlaws to downsize and the smallest home they would consider was 2500 sq ft, which I considered a pretty good sized home for a family, and massive for two people.
 

johnson86-1

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An interesting number to me is the ratio between the median home price and median household income. It peaked in 2006 during the housing bubble at 4.71. It bottomed out after the financial crisis in 2011 at 3.54.

It is now 5.08.
View attachment 23244

Basically, as we've gotten richer, we've just dumped that extra would be disposable money into more expensive housing. And in most places that's getting people much bigger and nicer homes, but in a lot of places it's just people bidding up essentially land prices and not really getting nicer housing.
 

Quincy A. Wagstaff

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Are you bearish on housing?

No, I can't predict where home prices are going. For all I know, this ratio is going to 10. Or 3. My only point is that even compared to the housing bubble, homes are expensive right now. Prices could crash tomorrow or go up for another 10 years. Nothing would surprise me.
 

msudawg12

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We have covered this before, but the big problems are 3 fold.


Number 2. CRP and other government programs in the 80's and 90's put way too much timber in the ground. That stuff reached maturity after the housing bubble burst. It will take 20+ years to take the excess timber supply out of the market on the South.

.

Interesting article from 2018 if any of you are interested in this point
https://www.wsj.com/articles/thousa...trees-for-retirement-it-didnt-work-1539095250
 

msudawg12

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There aren’t enough sawmills to process the trees.

I don’t operate in the sawmill industry but I’ve seen several of them from a banking perspective. It’s a very capital intensive industry and a very cyclical industry. You got to have an operator who knows how to build a balance sheet and live off that balance sheet when times are not good. It’s also very hard to build a good balance sheet in such a capital intensive industry. It’s just a hard industry to operate in and on top of that banks are scared to lend too much to a saw mill because of losses taken during the housing downturn.

I just don’t see a whole lot of sawmills coming online.

There are actually quite a few opening in the MS/AL region the next couple of years and more coming. The problem is there are limited people that can do them, as you said, and once committed, youre 2 years until they are operational. But they are coming
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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The household income vs housing is a data point that could be a red flag, but it's also potentially misleading.

Median household income includes everyone, such as retirees. Over the last decade the largest cohort of US workers in history have started retiring. Many of these retires have homes that are paid off and retirement savings. There income is limited to Social Security and any investments they cash out. As that number grows (which it has tremendously) it weighs heavily on household income.

The better number to look at is median full time wages. It's a little harder to find, but the BLS shows it up over 30% since 2012. With a huge spike in the last 5 years.. tax cuts anyone?

The housing market is about affordability, not income alone. Income, interest rates, down payment, disposable income, and tax rates are all extremely favorable for the working population. Another critical factor is the ability to buy second homes. It was very hard for most people to justify a second home 20 years ago. But there has been a boom in short term rentals thanks to AirBNB and VRBO. This allows people to not only cover the costs of a second hot, but make a profit in many cases.

So there are a lot of factors to consider, but for me the number one impediment to buying a house is down payment. If you can scrape up enough cash to avoid PMI or piggybacks etc, you can afford way more house. Bought my first house in December of 2012 with 3.5% down and my current mortgage is lower than that one on 2.5 times the home value because of a lack of PMI, I rolled all of my equity over for down payment to lower the actual mortgage amount. So instead of financing 96.5% at 4% with PMI, I am financing 55% of the home value with a 2.25% rate.


Overall I think 2022-23 will see some cooling in home price growth, but it definitely will not be declining baring some black swan event that the Fed doesn't step in on.. over the next few years, some local markets may experience price pullback. That headless to do with how much prices have risen vs long term demand in the area.


Here are a a couple of interesting trends.

This is real wage growth inflation adjusted in 1984 dollars for full time workers. This number is important because first time home buyers are full time workers. These days usually 30-35 years old with dual income.

View attachment 23247

For a real predictor of when a housing bubble is going to pop, you need to look at inventory. Prices are not going to decline until it becomes a buyers market. That's all about supply and demand.

View attachment 23248

Gun to head... When do I think the worm will turn? There will be some kind of disruption to housing in the future that cuts prices way down (3d printed homes, kit homes, advanced modular homes, etc.) Either that happens or the boomers get really old and decide that they are moving into assisted living... This scenario has been pushed way out because of Covid and nursing homes. 3... 5... 10 years. Who knows. But the simplest way to read the tea leaves is available inventory.
 
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horshack.sixpack

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Oct 30, 2012
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Speaking of PMI, my daughter got a pro-active call from her mortgage originator from when she bought a house 3 years ago. Home appreciation allowed him to refi for her, let her walk out of closing with a few thousand and reduced her monthly by around $250/mo by getting rid of PMI. She had done a 100%, no money down FHA loan...
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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Hey Joe Lee, I bought some osb at $28/ sheet while it was still surging in the spring. I still have most of it and actually added at $33/ sheet. Now it's at $17 locally. I was thinking about buying some more to squirrel away for the coming year.

I appreciate your insight in the historical trends and defining the seasonal trends by the historical.

Do you see another crazy spike last this summer for this year?

There will be a spike, but probably not nearly as big as last year. It will come a little earlier and end a little sooner. It will also be more regional. Currently the spot market for truckloads of 7/16 osb is $26/ sheet in Texas and closer to $20/ sheet on the east coast.

From all the years I have seen this crap (usually on a much less ridiculous scale) I have come up with an analogy. It's a yo-yo. Price overacts in each direction several times with less and less intensity until it reaches a normal range. So if in the last 12 months the top was $55/sheet of osb and the bottom was $17... Over the next 12 months you might see $40 and $23 or something like that.... But, OSB is weird man. Lowe's and Home Depot control that market and they bought way too much last year, not sure if they will do that again.

With all that said, I don't 17 with physical commodities myself anymore. Futures or equity markets for me. Mold, bugs, freight, storage, getting stiffed by a customer... I have PTSD from that stuff.
 

Smoked Toag

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No, I can't predict where home prices are going. For all I know, this ratio is going to 10. Or 3. My only point is that even compared to the housing bubble, homes are expensive right now. Prices could crash tomorrow or go up for another 10 years. Nothing would surprise me.
It won't happen this year, it's never when people suspect it will be. But it's coming.

Combination of baby boomers bidding us all farewell in this life, plus supply chain stabilizing, plus people not freaking out as much, will get things back where they should be. The last part is the big thing. People are all out buying up houses simply because reasons, and it 17s up the demand.

These dumbass millenials have never seen a housing crisis or even a real downturn, so of course they all think the market will continue to go up forever.
 
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