Penn State - Michigan State dual thread

[ElDuce]

Refs would prefer not to be noticed. But matches don't always play out in ways that allow that to take place. Most of the time a ref is noticed it's because they're making the best call they can in a tough situation. The ref isn't trying to be noticed -- he/she is simply doing what they're supposed to be doing, and all the coaches, teammates, and fans, who see everything from the perspective of what they want, disagree or find fault with the ref, even if the refs are usually right, and the coaches, teammates, and fans are usually wrong.

Stepping off my soap box, let me address the refs in the Haines match. Locked hands is somewhat of a PITA. Every single dual I ref, there are coaches and fans calling for locked hands pretty much every time a wrestler is returned to the mat, etc. It gets pretty annoying, especially since in high school rules (and MS and youth), a wrestler is given reaction time (i.e., they can have locked hands when they hit the mat, and are given a second or so to unlock them). In college, the rules are a little different, in that there is no allowance for reaction time. (Which is why Matt Brown won his national title, when PSU's coaches threw the brick.) Other ways in which locked hands are a PITA include: 1) if you're working a 2-on-1, and your hands end up hitting each other, is that locked hands? (coaches scream for it; it's not generally called), 2) a wrestler takes down an opponent, and the opponent tries to kick free or jackrabbit away, and the offensive wrestler grabs the legs. If they lock their hands together, it should be called locked hands, but that often takes place underneath the shins, and is impossible to see for a ref, 3) most of the situations where it occurs are when an offensive wrestler is on top and has taken down an opponent or returned them to the mat, and the lock is across the chest which is either on the mat or just above the mat. (That was the situation in the Haines match.) Refs get pretty good at anticipating when or where locked hands occur, and will bend down, lean over, etc. to look for it. (You CAN NOT call it just because you think it's taking place. You have to visually see it to call it.) In the Haines match, I don't believe the refs were trying to make themselves noticed with the locked hands call. The assistant ref, who often has a better view of it than the head ref in many cases, is the one that first signaled locked hands in the Haines match. And once you signal it, you're supposed to hold that signal (as he did) until the technical violation is called, or the period ends and you mention it to the center ref. PSU challenged the call, and apparently (we didn't see it on the BTN+ telecast), there was a camera angle that showed that Haines did not commit locked hands in the situation, so the call was overturned.

The stalling call was legit. First off, the refs are not supposed to be looking at the clock (well, at least the center ref). Their primary focus is on the the match in front of them. The AR is supposed to check the clock and either count down the last 5 seconds, or call out time when the clock hits 0:00, so that the center ref can remain totally focused on the wrestlers. @truth-and-reason gave a good explanation of the stall call. It was legitimate. In high school wrestling, the rules have not been changed to mandate mandatory stall calls anywhere near the way they have in college. Some people like the college changes, as it forces more stall warnings and calls, but there is a downside to it. In high school, I'm not making the call against Haines in that situation, but per college rules I would have to when the ref called it. You're not supposed to factor in anything about the time left in a period or the match when you make a stall warning or a stall call. And as I indicated above, the center ref isn't really supposed to even look at the clock. So basically, the ref made the correct call in this situation. Yet somewhat that's making him noticed? Also, Byers said at the time something along the lines of "oh no, Jamie George you can't make that call at that time." Ironhead if an excellent PBP announcer, and I chat with him at pretty much every PSU wrestling match I attend (which is very few, unfortunately). However, speaking from a ref's perspective, one of his biggest shortcomings as a PBP announcer is when he opines about what a ref should do, or whether or not they were correct in a call, or didn't call something when they should have, etc. In those instances, he usually sounds almost 100% like a fan, and not somebody that's giving an objective analysis of the situation. Again, I like Jeff, but that's one area of his PBP that I would modify if I could. In short, it's best to not go by what he says regarding the actions of refs in PSU matches.

wow, great insight! thank you! I am an armature wrestling fan, got into it when my son started wrestling in middle school. Still learning, wrestling coverage is a HUGE reason I kept my BWI membership this year, always look forward to your input!

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Thanks for the research, as always. I look at this and wonder why MM would not be #2 or #3. The transitive property ( I sucked at math ) doesn't hold well for sports, but #3 beat CA, 3-1. #4 beat CA 6-4, #2 lost to #4. These guys are established studs and are clearly pretty close when it comes to overall talent. Great wrestlers get beat once in a while. Sure you can dominate a guy and still only win 6-4. In a tourney situation, there may not be the motivation to invest energy rolling up points.......control the match and move on.

What the world witnessed Friday night was a guy who is on a completely different level than CA. This isn't a Washington over Starocci, big move seals the win situation. One wouldn't expect the next meeting to be better for CA. I'm not knocking CA..........he is an established stud with an established style which has worked well for him. MM is just on another level right now

Yeah, it's a tough weight to rank at this point. Most of the time, IMHO, the rankings are pretty obvious for the top 5-10. With 165, that's not really the case this season (so far).

The transitive property is fun to throw around, but it really isn't all that applicable for wrestling. Amine has lost to 3 of the top 9 guys at this point, so beating him is (unfortunately for Mesenbrink), less of an achievement than it might normally seem. That Mesenbrink beat him so decisively certainly gets ones attention. As Mesenbrink hasn't wrestled other top 9 guys so far, it's hard to know if Mesenbrink is "that good," based on the Amine match, if Amine is just over ranked, if Mesenbrink is so new (to college wrestling) that they don't have a good book on how to attack him and that in time (as they get more tape of him) he'll have a tougher time maintaining his dominance, etc.

Too a large extent, I think the rankings are a combination of what guys have done this season, and what they've done historically. Mesenbrink doesn't have the 2-3 years of past results to factor in, and he didn't start the season ranked by anybody.

I don't think you can put Mesenbrink ahead of O'Toole. Carr has to be above him as well, on a combo of past results and his beating Hamiti, Caliendo, and Amine. Ramirez has to remain high, as he defeated Carr. Olejnik has to stay high, as he's beaten Ramirez and Amine. Hamiti is another guy that I think deserves to be above Mesenbrink, until they (hopefully) meet at B1Gs. I could see Mesenbrink possibly being moved ahead of Caliendo and Hall, but neither of them lost in the past week, so I doubt they would agree with that.

I'm really looking forward to how this weight class plays out over the season. If Mesenbrink can maintain this level of dominance, and defeats Caliendo, he may rise in the rankings before conference tournaments, as my earlier post showed that many of the Big XII guys will have head-to-head matchups during the season. NCAA seeding is going to be really tough, and also really important, for this weight class at nationals. With all the talent at this weight class, guys will want to get as high a seed as possible. Though even with a high seed, they're likely to face a really good challenge as early as the quarterfinals.

 

[Karl_Havok]

I didn't listen to the student announcers, as I had Ironhead playing. I just listened to them as I watched the Select Matches video I listed above.

Wrestling PBP is tough in general, especially if you are not/were not actively involved in the sport. Color analysis is even more difficult if you don't know wrestling well. In that regard, I sympathize with any students that are trying to learn the broadcasting skills, but don't have much knowledge of wrestling.

That said, these two MSU announcers were brutal. They didn't know the difference between a TD and a reversal. They didn't know the different between interlocking fingers and locked hands. They didn't know what was being challenged. All of that, and much more (in a bad way), was in evidence during their call of the Haines match.

I try to give the student announcers a ton of leeway since they almost surely don’t know wrestling. These two for MSU tried to do way too much for two guys who don’t know a thing about wrestling. They should have said far less instead of trying to analyze a sport they know nothing about. This was the first time I’ve ever been annoyed with the student announcers. It was just beyond bad.

 

[[email protected]]

You are correct, but the point is, it was a bad time to make that call. Byers went nuts on the radio calling the ref out by name saying, “Jaime George, you can’t make that call right now.” It didn’t help that George was late counting one of the MSU wrestlers for holding onto the leg in an attempt to keep top control. People just want consistency within the calls.

I think JB was wrong on both calls. The stalling call, although huge, was legitimate. The holding the leg call was correct because the official started the count but Haines stood up, which stops the count. He then started again when Haines brought his knee to the mat.

 

[[email protected]]

I didn't listen to the student announcers, as I had Ironhead playing. I just listened to them as I watched the Select Matches video I listed above.

Wrestling PBP is tough in general, especially if you are not/were not actively involved in the sport. Color analysis is even more difficult if you don't know wrestling well. In that regard, I sympathize with any students that are trying to learn the broadcasting skills, but don't have much knowledge of wrestling.

That said, these two MSU announcers were brutal. They didn't know the difference between a TD and a reversal. They didn't know the different between interlocking fingers and locked hands. They didn't know what was being challenged. All of that, and much more (in a bad way), was in evidence during their call of the Haines match.

I thought they were bad enough to rival the infamous Nebraska duo!

 

[Tryingtodoitright]

Byers may have said it best. Haines wrestling like a tentative number 1 trying not to make mistakes instead of wrestling freely.

It's the end of January. Coughs, colds and more are Everywhere, I suspect that's the same 'in the room'. To a degree every wrestler has some say if they wrestle out not and I know for a fact that Levi is not 100%. His HAIR is injured.

 

[a_mshaffer]

I try to give the student announcers a ton of leeway since they almost surely don’t know wrestling. These two for MSU tried to do way too much for two guys who don’t know a thing about wrestling. They should have said far less instead of trying to analyze a sport they know nothing about. This was the first time I’ve ever been annoyed with the student announcers. It was just beyond bad.

I'm with you but since I listened to one's we had a week (or so) go, I made sure I could pick up Ironhead on my iphone. I must say, they looked promising during their intro. When they went to their 3rd 'partner' down matside I knew I was going to have to tune them out.

 

[a_mshaffer]

I thought they were bad enough to rival the infamous Nebraska duo!

no sir, that due was pure entertainment! It just so happened that a wrestling match was going on

 

[manatree]

I thought they were bad enough to rival the infamous Nebraska duo!

no sir, that due was pure entertainment! It just so happened that a wrestling match was going on

Absolutely. In all my years, that was the first time I’ve ever seen an illegal fist to the back. I’m still waiting to witness a legal fist to the back.

Bottom line is that wrestling is a niche sport and unpaid interns have long been the norm in broadcasting. Does the B1G network broadcast multiple lacrosse or field hockey matches on the same day? If so, I’m guessing that they have trouble finding knowledgeable volunteers for some of those. Perhaps the better thing to do would be to split up their wrestling experts and pair them with a college kid.

 

[BlueAndWhite86]

Having trained in both running and swimming a million years ago and practiced through plenty of events, if they are training through a match, they are just not going to be able to "go" like their mind would like. They think they are doing their very best......the reality is something radically different. This is tough to gage with wrestling. With the stuff I did, the clock doesn't lie. One week you run the mile and you are totally spent and the time sucks. A month later, you can coast to the same time.

March. March. March

That’s spot on. Having swum two million years ago that was the case. We would have morning practice on dual meet days. Championships are won in January and it had very little to do with dual meets.

 

[Bosco2]

Haines was still in control and not attempting to return him to the mat. This is no different than being in rear-standing position or having legs in while guy is on his feet. the sensitivity to this situation is even higher during OT periods

Doesn't there have to be a count from the ref in that situation? I didn't see one.

 

[Roar More]

That was my first thought, too. Doesn't the ref have to let the wrestlers know there is a count happening?

 

[PSU_Lions_84]

Absolutely. In all my years, that was the first time I’ve ever seen an illegal fist to the back. I’m still waiting to witness a legal fist to the back.

Bottom line is that wrestling is a niche sport and unpaid interns have long been the norm in broadcasting. Does the B1G network broadcast multiple lacrosse or field hockey matches on the same day? If so, I’m guessing that they have trouble finding knowledgeable volunteers for some of those. Perhaps the better thing to do would be to split up their wrestling experts and pair them with a college kid.

A legal fist to the back is when it benefits YOUR team!

 

[Tom McAndrew]

 

[truth-and-reason]

That was my first thought, too. Doesn't the ref have to let the wrestlers know there is a count happening?

No. only certain situations require a visual and audible count. As an example, in same bout, the count made while Saldate was hanging on the leg while Haines was not on his feet.