PSU Football: Time for some perspective

[Karl_Havok]

Good morning and Happy New Year. With the end of the PSU football season I figured some perspective was needed after all the poo pooing that happened within our fanbase after the Michigan game, and then again after the Ohio State game. There seems to be the perception that PSU is underperforming under James Franklin as if we have been a whole lot better than what James has done for us since he arrived at Penn State. After the Rose Bowl win last night I went through the last 30 years of Penn State football to see where he stacks up and he has had two of the top five best seasons we have had in the last three decades while at Penn State. Over the last 30 years here are the greatest hits.

1. 1994 - 12-0 (2) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Win against Oregon (12) - 38-20 - Joe Paterno

2. 2005 - 11-1 (3) - Big Ten Champions - Orange Bowl Win against Florida State (23) - 26-23 - Joe Paterno

3. 2016 - 11-3 (5) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Loss against USC (9) - 49-52 - James Franklin

4. 2008 - 11-2 (6) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Loss against USC (5) - 24-38 - Joe Paterno

5. 2022 - 11-2 (11) - Rose Bowl Win against Utah (8) - 35-21 - James Franklin

There are other notable seasons over the last 30 years including other 11-2 seasons with nice bowl wins for PSU (including two other 11-2 seasons under Franklin with two NY6 bowl wins). However, winning the granddaddy of them all means more than winning other bowl games which is what elevates this season to number five over the last 30 years.

James Franklin has been nothing short of excellent for us.

 

[psuro]

In the years 2004-2011, PSU was 16-10 in games decided by 7 points or less
In the years 2014-2022, PSU was 20-21 in games decided by 7 points or less

In the years 2004-2011, PSU was 29-7 in games decided by 21 points or more
In the years 2014-2022, PSU was 34-7 in games decided by 21 points or more.

It's the close games that have hampered PSU in the last nine years, but in blow outs, PSU has fared better. I do find it interesting that in both the timeframes, PSU has lost the same number of blowout games (21 points or more).

With an expected top 10 finish, CJF and JoePa will have had the same percentage of top 10 finishes - 44% of the time.

Granted, PSU had two head coaches in 2011. So it's not a direct comparison to coaches. But, he is just about on par with Joe. I am not sure "short of excellence" is an appropriate statement (and I want him to be the coach), but by no means is he as bad as some of the fan base make him out to be. The fan bases (and podcaster's) obsession with 11-11 in 2020/2021 has become a hook for which they can hang their coat of disappointment.

I don't think another coach would have done better than what CJF has been doing for PSU. He has us right where we have always been.

 

[leinbacker]

Good morning and Happy New Year. With the end of the PSU football season I figured some perspective was needed after all the poo pooing that happened within our fanbase after the Michigan game, and then again after the Ohio State game. There seems to be the perception that PSU is underperforming under James Franklin as if we have been a whole lot better than what James has done for us since he arrived at Penn State. After the Rose Bowl win last night I went through the last 30 years of Penn State football to see where he stacks up and he has had two of the top five best seasons we have had in the last three decades while at Penn State. Over the last 30 years here are the greatest hits.

1. 1994 - 12-0 (2) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Win against Oregon (12) - 38-20 - Joe Paterno

2. 2005 - 11-1 (3) - Big Ten Champions - Orange Bowl Win against Florida State (23) - 26-23 - Joe Paterno

3. 2016 - 11-3 (5) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Loss against USC (9) - 49-52 - James Franklin

4. 2008 - 11-2 (6) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Loss against USC (5) - 24-38 - Joe Paterno

5. 2022 - 11-2 (11) - Rose Bowl Win against Utah (8) - 35-21 - James Franklin

There are other notable seasons over the last 30 years including other 11-2 seasons with nice bowl wins for PSU (including two other 11-2 seasons under Franklin with two NY6 bowl wins). However, winning the granddaddy of them all means more than winning other bowl games which is what elevates this season to number five over the last 30 years.

James Franklin has been nothing short of excellent for us.

So fans should not have poo-poo'ed after the Michigan game? We should just accept that ***-whooping yearly now?

 

[PSUJam]

Good morning and Happy New Year. With the end of the PSU football season I figured some perspective was needed after all the poo pooing that happened within our fanbase after the Michigan game, and then again after the Ohio State game. There seems to be the perception that PSU is underperforming under James Franklin as if we have been a whole lot better than what James has done for us since he arrived at Penn State. After the Rose Bowl win last night I went through the last 30 years of Penn State football to see where he stacks up and he has had two of the top five best seasons we have had in the last three decades while at Penn State. Over the last 30 years here are the greatest hits.

1. 1994 - 12-0 (2) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Win against Oregon (12) - 38-20 - Joe Paterno

2. 2005 - 11-1 (3) - Big Ten Champions - Orange Bowl Win against Florida State (23) - 26-23 - Joe Paterno

3. 2016 - 11-3 (5) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Loss against USC (9) - 49-52 - James Franklin

4. 2008 - 11-2 (6) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Loss against USC (5) - 24-38 - Joe Paterno

5. 2022 - 11-2 (11) - Rose Bowl Win against Utah (8) - 35-21 - James Franklin

There are other notable seasons over the last 30 years including other 11-2 seasons with nice bowl wins for PSU (including two other 11-2 seasons under Franklin with two NY6 bowl wins). However, winning the granddaddy of them all means more than winning other bowl games which is what elevates this season to number five over the last 30 years.

James Franklin has been nothing short of excellent for us.

It was written elsewhere that this was our best 7 year stretch since 80-86.

 

[PSUJam]

So fans should not have poo-poo'ed after the Michigan game? We should just accept that ***-whooping yearly now?

 

[WVilleLion]

Honestly while clearly we have had WTF games and moments under CJF, unfortunately too much of our fan base will not let the COVID season go.

Personally I do not hold it against him. I mean how many other Div 1 HC sent their family away and did not see them for what was it, 9 months, because he didn’t want his daughter at risk. You could tell he was miserable and out of sync and it carried down to the team. He has admitted as much.

Last season was underwhelming, but I will take 11, 11, 9, 11, and 11 wins those other seasons.

And yes, I want us to win a NC and B1G and stop losing to OSU and Michigan both in a season, at least split.

 

[OuiRPSU]

While I’ll admit that we ended up having a pretty good season, going 11-2 only reinforces the belief that we can - and should - be better.

 

[PSU87]

Good morning and Happy New Year. With the end of the PSU football season I figured some perspective was needed after all the poo pooing that happened within our fanbase after the Michigan game, and then again after the Ohio State game. There seems to be the perception that PSU is underperforming under James Franklin as if we have been a whole lot better than what James has done for us since he arrived at Penn State. After the Rose Bowl win last night I went through the last 30 years of Penn State football to see where he stacks up and he has had two of the top five best seasons we have had in the last three decades while at Penn State. Over the last 30 years here are the greatest hits.

1. 1994 - 12-0 (2) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Win against Oregon (12) - 38-20 - Joe Paterno

2. 2005 - 11-1 (3) - Big Ten Champions - Orange Bowl Win against Florida State (23) - 26-23 - Joe Paterno

3. 2016 - 11-3 (5) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Loss against USC (9) - 49-52 - James Franklin

4. 2008 - 11-2 (6) - Big Ten Champions - Rose Bowl Loss against USC (5) - 24-38 - Joe Paterno

5. 2022 - 11-2 (11) - Rose Bowl Win against Utah (8) - 35-21 - James Franklin

There are other notable seasons over the last 30 years including other 11-2 seasons with nice bowl wins for PSU (including two other 11-2 seasons under Franklin with two NY6 bowl wins). However, winning the granddaddy of them all means more than winning other bowl games which is what elevates this season to number five over the last 30 years.

James Franklin has been nothing short of excellent for us.

Not a bad list, but I think your statement that winning the Rose Bowl being better than winning any other NY6 bowl is arbitrary.

I don't think 2022 is any "better" than say 1996, for example, with the Fiesta Win over Texas.

It was a great season. Kudos to the team and staff.

 

[FrontierLion]

This season was a lot of fun. As I've stated in other posts throughout the year, my expectations are not "National Championship or Bust", but rather, double-digit wins with a nice NY6 bowl victory. As you point out, CJF has delivered that in quite a few years now.

Let's face it ... only six teams will win a NY6 bowl per year (not counting the National Championship). If we're one of those six, I'm happy.

Here's a legitimate question...

Would you rather have the season Ohio State had this year (11-2, No B1G Championship and lose in the Playoff) or the season Penn State had (11-2, No B1G Championship and win the Rose Bowl)?? I'm taking PSU's year.

 

[Karl_Havok]

So fans should not have poo-poo'ed after the Michigan game? We should just accept that ***-whooping yearly now?

Yes. That's exactly what I said. We should accept an *** whooping from Michigan every year. Great job deciphering my point.

 

[Karl_Havok]

It was written elsewhere that this was our best 7 year stretch since 80-86.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good narrative, amirte?

If you go through the last 30 years you'll find that James Franklin has 4 of the best 10 seasons and he hasn't even been the coach for a decade yet. Our fans who hate CJF need a reality check.

 

[Karl_Havok]

Not a bad list, but I think your statement that winning the Rose Bowl being better than winning any other NY6 bowl is arbitrary.

I don't think 2022 is any "better" than say 1996, for example, with the Fiesta Win over Texas.

It was a great season. Kudos to the team and staff.

There are some you could argue for being better but I'd counter that for that Fiesta Bowl that:

1. The Rose Bowl is more prestigious.

2. That Texas team was ranked 20 while this Utah was a top 10 team (8).

Even if you want to call it a draw between the Fiesta and Rose Bowl for prestige, both PSU teams finished 11-2 while PSU beat a top ten ranked Utah and Pac-12 champ while Utah was a 3 loss team going in, Texas was a 4 loss team going into the Fiesta Bowl while being the Big 12 champs.

As far as the regular season goes that 1996 team got smacked around by tOSU and lost a close game against Iowa. The season was similar in regards to this season for PSU. I'd still give the edge to this 2022 team for a better season, although by a razor thin margin.

There is also the 1993 team that beat number 6 Tennessee in the Citrus Bowl to finish 10-2. Tennessee was 10-1 going in while PSU was 9-2 going in. However, I think the Citrus Bowl victory is far less prestigious than winning the Rose Bowl while the difference in beating a number 6 Tennessee is on par with beating a number 8 Utah, but again this is razor thin and you can make an argument.

 

[GrimReaper]

This season was a lot of fun. As I've stated in other posts throughout the year, my expectations are not "National Championship or Bust", but rather, double-digit wins with a nice NY6 bowl victory. As you point out, CJF has delivered that in quite a few years now.

Let's face it ... only six teams will win a NY6 bowl per year (not counting the National Championship). If we're one of those six, I'm happy.

Here's a legitimate question...

Would you rather have the season Ohio State had this year (11-2, No B1G Championship and lose in the Playoff) or the season Penn State had (11-2, No B1G Championship and win the Rose Bowl)?? I'm taking PSU's year.

That's an interesting comparison which raises the question what is/are the benchmark(s) against which the success of a program is measured? Don't think I'm going too far out on a limb by saying that at OSU they are: 1)beating Michigan, 2) winning the Big Ten Championship, and 3) winning a National Championship.

Not sure what they are for PSU's fans and administration. For Franklin it's winning a National Championship.

Reflecting on that, it might be an interesting exercise to ask OSU fans how they would feel if the team lost to Michigan, didn't win the conference, but somehow managed to win a National Championship (which could have happened this year).

 

[Karl_Havok]

This season was a lot of fun. As I've stated in other posts throughout the year, my expectations are not "National Championship or Bust", but rather, double-digit wins with a nice NY6 bowl victory. As you point out, CJF has delivered that in quite a few years now.

Let's face it ... only six teams will win a NY6 bowl per year (not counting the National Championship). If we're one of those six, I'm happy.

Here's a legitimate question...

Would you rather have the season Ohio State had this year (11-2, No B1G Championship and lose in the Playoff) or the season Penn State had (11-2, No B1G Championship and win the Rose Bowl)?? I'm taking PSU's year.

I am not sure Ohio State's season was really any better. Making the CFB playoff is a better benchmark than making the Rose Bowl and playing UGA the way they did, while it might look good on paper, doesn't feel as good as winning the Rose Bowl. I honestly consider the season Ohio State had and what we had as a wash if I'm comparing the two.

 

[leinbacker]

Yes. That's exactly what I said. We should accept an *** whooping from Michigan every year. Great job deciphering my point.

 

[bbrown]

So fans should not have poo-poo'ed after the Michigan game? We should just accept that ***-whooping yearly now?

No but I think you have to admit the progress the defense has made since that game has been pretty awesome.

 

[Bison13]

There are some you could argue for being better but I'd counter that for that Fiesta Bowl that:

1. The Rose Bowl is more prestigious.

2. That Texas team was ranked 20 while this Utah was a top 10 team (8).

Even if you want to call it a draw between the Fiesta and Rose Bowl for prestige, both PSU teams finished 11-2 while PSU beat a top ten ranked Utah and Pac-12 champ while Utah was a 3 loss team going in, Texas was a 4 loss team going into the Fiesta Bowl while being the Big 12 champs.

As far as the regular season goes that 1996 team got smacked around by tOSU and lost a close game against Iowa. The season was similar in regards to this season for PSU. I'd still give the edge to this 2022 team for a better season, although by a razor thin margin.

There is also the 1993 team that beat number 6 Tennessee in the Citrus Bowl to finish 10-2. Tennessee was 10-1 going in while PSU was 9-2 going in. However, I think the Citrus Bowl victory is far less prestigious than winning the Rose Bowl while the difference in beating a number 6 Tennessee is on par with beating a number 8 Utah, but again this is razor thin and you can make an argument.

dont think you can compare prestige of bowl games in different eras as those games were defined by conference tie ins more than todays are as well as having the top teams use certain bowls for teh first round of the playoffs

 

[LafayetteBear]

There are some you could argue for being better but I'd counter that for that Fiesta Bowl that:

1. The Rose Bowl is more prestigious.

I have good memories of the Fiesta Bowl. I was there on January 1, 1987.

But Rose Bowl > Fiesta Bowl, and it's not close.

 

[leinbacker]

There are some you could argue for being better but I'd counter that for that Fiesta Bowl that:

1. The Rose Bowl is more prestigious.

2. That Texas team was ranked 20 while this Utah was a top 10 team (8).

Even if you want to call it a draw between the Fiesta and Rose Bowl for prestige, both PSU teams finished 11-2 while PSU beat a top ten ranked Utah and Pac-12 champ while Utah was a 3 loss team going in, Texas was a 4 loss team going into the Fiesta Bowl while being the Big 12 champs.

As far as the regular season goes that 1996 team got smacked around by tOSU and lost a close game against Iowa. The season was similar in regards to this season for PSU. I'd still give the edge to this 2022 team for a better season, although by a razor thin margin.

There is also the 1993 team that beat number 6 Tennessee in the Citrus Bowl to finish 10-2. Tennessee was 10-1 going in while PSU was 9-2 going in. However, I think the Citrus Bowl victory is far less prestigious than winning the Rose Bowl while the difference in beating a number 6 Tennessee is on par with beating a number 8 Utah, but again this is razor thin and you can make an argument.

The '93 game was suppose to be an ***-whooping (by Tennessee against us) because of all their speed. That and the Orlando paper called Paterno "Pinhead of the week" for skipping some function or something. So certainly some satisfaction bonus for that win.

 

[CDLionFL]

Here's a legitimate question...

Would you rather have the season Ohio State had this year (11-2, No B1G Championship and lose in the Playoff) or the season Penn State had (11-2, No B1G Championship and win the Rose Bowl)?? I'm taking PSU's year.

I'll take OSU's season. Yeah, it ends with a bitter pill but at least you're in the running for the championship (and probably make it if Harrison doesn't get hurt not to mention all the other injuries they had on offense). All you want in sports is that opportunity to win the ultimate championship. Yes, only one team does but if you're one of the 4 that has that chance, that's a whole lot better than being eliminated in mid-October with a consolation prize to Pasadena.

 

[PSUJam]

That's an interesting comparison which raises the question what is/are the benchmark(s) against which the success of a program is measured? Don't think I'm going too far out on a limb by saying that at OSU they are: 1)beating Michigan, 2) winning the Big Ten Championship, and 3) winning a National Championship.

Not sure what they are for PSU's fans and administration. For Franklin it's winning a National Championship.

Reflecting on that, it might be an interesting exercise to ask OSU fans how they would feel if the team lost to Michigan, didn't win the conference, but somehow managed to win a National Championship (which could have happened this year).

With the expanded playoffs, this has a chance to happen more often.

 

[psuro]

I have good memories of the Fiesta Bowl. I was there on January 1, 1987.

But Rose Bowl > Fiesta Bowl, and it's not close.

If you were there on January 1, 1987, you were there 24 hours early. The game was on January 2 1987.

 

[DaytonRickster]

That's an interesting comparison which raises the question what is/are the benchmark(s) against which the success of a program is measured? Don't think I'm going too far out on a limb by saying that at OSU they are: 1)beating Michigan, 2) winning the Big Ten Championship, and 3) winning a National Championship.

Not sure what they are for PSU's fans and administration. For Franklin it's winning a National Championship.

Reflecting on that, it might be an interesting exercise to ask OSU fans how they would feel if the team lost to Michigan, didn't win the conference, but somehow managed to win a National Championship (which could have happened this year).

What I would like for PSU going forward:
--Beat either OSU or Michigan annually
--Double digit wins every other year
--Play for a B1G title every three years
--Play in a top tier bowl annually
--Earn one of 12 playoff spots every other year
--Play in the football championship game once in a 10 year span

I think those are achievable under CJF.

 

[leinbacker]

With the expanded playoffs, this has a chance to happen more often.

and 11 of 12 teams are guaranteed to finish their season with a loss.

 

[PSUJam]

--Play in a top tier bowl annually

As much as Michigan has broken through lately (by hiring Ravens coaches as coordinators), the last bowl win they had was in the 2015 Citrus Bowl. Would we be ok with that if we made the playoffs 2 years in a row but lost?

 

[GrimReaper]

With the expanded playoffs, this has a chance to happen more often.

Yes, which translates into making the playoffs less of an achievement. To me, it's making the semis, which is the same as it is now.

 

[PSUJam]

Yes, which translates into making the playoffs less of an achievement. To me, it's making the semis, which is the same as it is now.

More football, especially a chance for a playoff game at Beaver Stadium, makes me happy.

 

[CDLionFL]

Making the playoffs less of an achievement....woof, talk about taking things for granted.

 

[Paruffus]

The '93 game was suppose to be an ***-whooping (by Tennessee against us) because of all their speed. That and the Orlando paper called Paterno "Pinhead of the week" for skipping some function or something. So certainly some satisfaction bonus for that win.

The Orlando Slantinel is still a garbage rag. And satisfaction bonus? Absolutely.

 

[DaytonRickster]

As much as Michigan has broken through lately (by hiring Ravens coaches as coordinators), the last bowl win they had was in the 2015 Citrus Bowl. Would we be ok with that if we made the playoffs 2 years in a row but lost?

Of course I would like PSU to win the bowl game. I guess I should have clarified.

 

[PSU87]

I have good memories of the Fiesta Bowl. I was there on January 1, 1987.

But Rose Bowl > Fiesta Bowl, and it's not close.

Rose=Sugar=Orange=Fiesta

One could argue Cotton Bowl, of the "major" bowls, has lost some its luster. But the other 4 are all equal in stature and have been for quite some time.

I don't know where to put the Peach

 

[GrimReaper]

Making the playoffs less of an achievement....woof, talk about taking things for granted.

Sure, when it's twelve teams instead of four.

 

[GrimReaper]

Rose=Sugar=Orange=Fiesta

One could argue Cotton Bowl, of the "major" bowls, has lost some its luster. But the other 4 are all equal in stature and have been for quite some time.

I don't know where to put the Peach

In the expanded playoff they are all the same, except for personal preferences for location and venue.

 

[GrimReaper]

More football, especially a chance for a playoff game at Beaver Stadium, makes me happy.

Which raises the question of whether Beaver Stadium can host a game in the latter part of December. My guess is that it can.

 

[PSUFTG]

Making the playoffs less of an achievement....woof, talk about taking things for granted.

Well, if 12 teams make "the playoffs", it really isn't any huge accomplishment for any program that wants to consider itself among the Tier 1 programs. Is it? Essentially has the same level of accomplishment as getting to a decent NYD Bowl Game.

 

[LafayetteBear]

If you were there on January 1, 1987, you were there 24 hours early. The game was on January 2 1987.

OK, you got me there, 'Ro. Make it January 2, 1987. (Actually, I think I was there both days.)

 

[LafayetteBear]

Rose=Sugar=Orange=Fiesta

One could argue Cotton Bowl, of the "major" bowls, has lost some its luster. But the other 4 are all equal in stature and have been for quite some time.

I don't know where to put the Peach

Not in the conversation. The CFB Playoff thing has totally propped up the Peach Bowl, which otherwise has all the cachet of the Liberty Bowl.

 

[psuro]

OK, you got me there, 'Ro. Make it January 2, 1987. (Actually, I think I was there both days.)

You have to remember it. It is a date that will live in infamy.

 

[LionJim]

If you were there on January 1, 1987, you were there 24 hours early. The game was on January 2 1987.

Lol.

 

[FrontierLion]

Well, if 12 teams make "the playoffs", it really isn't any huge accomplishment for any program that wants to consider itself among the Tier 1 programs. Is it? Essentially has the same level of accomplishment as getting to a decent NYD Bowl Game.

Very true. If Penn State makes it to the 12-team Playoff most years, but never wins it all, it will become like the "consolation" Rose Bowl.

If we win a first round playoff game each year, then potentially lose in the 2nd round or later, I think I'd feel ok. But if we continually lose in the first round of the playoffs year after year, I know I'll be longing for the days of "consolation" Rose Bowl victories to end the season.