Question about younger generations regarding salary?...
- Thread starter dawgstudent
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I've always attempted to hold up a mirror at each job and ask myself if I could justify my salary if I were in my bosses/company's shoes. I left one job specifically because once I got there, it became apparent that my manager had obtained permission to hire just because she was belly aching about not having as many people on her team as another peer. There wasn't enough work. I was bored. To even hire me, they had to move my title up from the original advertised level to meet my pay requirements. I found another job within 5 months that launched whatever measure of "success" that I've had.
I'm not there with my kids, but as of right now I intend to share with them everything I know about who makes what, including what we make. I want them to understand as much as possible when they are making decisions about college and career. If they end up being too immature to handle that knowledge discretely, then I've got bigger issues.
I've already started with them generally. They are already at an age that they need to understand that not everybody makes or has the same amount of money, both to understand why we don't do or have some of the things that their friends have and more importantly to understand why we don't talk about what we have or do with other people so they don't feel like they are missing out. I am hoping harping on that and seeing how they react will give me an understanding of when they can handle more detail. As of now, they understand we don't have nice cars because we prefer to spend our money on other things. They know that if you want to make a lot of money, you generally have to own your own business. They know generally that if you don't own your own business, that professions like medicine, law, accounting and finance make good money and that low paid doctors get paid way more than low paid lawyers, accountants, and finance people. They know they have a nice lifestyle that they can't recreate as adults with just any job, and have at least been told that it's not the most important thing in the world but they have to be realistic about how they want to live. We probably talk more about money at an earlier age than most people would consider normal, but I've never understood how not talking about money with your own kids became a thing. Outside of spiritual concerns, it seems like it's right up there with the birds and the bees as something you should be preparing them from on an age appropriate basis more or less continually.
As a kid, I didn’t know what my parents made. I knew it was not much. I wouldn’t be opposed to my kids knowing what my wife and I make but it wouldn’t mean anything to them now or probably anytime over the next several years.
As for work, I think it’s a good thing for salary to be more transparent. I’ve shared my salary with others but I’ve always told people who ask that you shouldn’t ask questions unless you’re prepared to know the answer. In my experience, the ones who ask what others make are asking because they suspect they are being paid less. I think companies should do more to be transparent about average salaries.
As for work, I think it’s a good thing for salary to be more transparent. I’ve shared my salary with others but I’ve always told people who ask that you shouldn’t ask questions unless you’re prepared to know the answer. In my experience, the ones who ask what others make are asking because they suspect they are being paid less. I think companies should do more to be transparent about average salaries.
It may surprise you based on what I've written, but I've long held the view that I'm only underpaid the second I have another offer that I'm willing to take. They're not paying me not to leave, they're paying me to not bother to look and interview.
I did say that people hate to hear it. But its not. Every task an employee does adds value. That value minus the pay, equals profit. It is oversimplified, but it's true.
True, that's why it's an oversimplification. But even for that, some employee built the asset, or identified it for purchase, etc.
Lol.
yes, but most have the same ones. Most even use the same company or two to give them their salary ranges! Almost all HR benefits and compensation schemes are identical these days at big companies. Small businesses often do their own thing.
Lol
I'm not trying to be absolute about it. It's just the most simple way to define it. It's not wrong, people just hate the implications.
About 2 years. But can you move, what are those costs? Can your lifestyle handle a layoff? And hate to break it to you, but the risk of being an HR target is not just a layoff. Getting another job when HR is against you is a problem.
Agreed.
My further advice: old Chinese proverb, don't ask for what you're not willing to take. Don't expect to get a raise all at once. If you are an average worker in your position, take what you are getting. If you are a star, tell your manager what you think you're worth, and ask how you can get there. Managers absolutely don't mind telling you you will get a promotion when they can, and they will give you larger raises than the rest. But there's a limit to what HR will let them do. Know that unless you switch jobs, you will never come close to maximizing what HR is willing to pay for your role and productivity. So either plan to switch jobs, or accept less pay.
I've prepped those calcs and I've audited those calcs. They aren't lying. Well, they could be but it's an easy call out by auditors even doing basic verification. But that metric is largely garbage without stratification. I'd rather know who is being rewarded well and who is just keeping up with inflation.
I am 32. Been in corporate America my entire career(10 years at 2 companies). My first manager told me we weren’t allowed to discuss salary. I found out later he was kind of a goofball, so I started taking his advice w/ a grain of salt.
I discuss salaries and pay raises w/ close friends. No open discussion on the floor with anyone. That just makes you sound like a malcontent and does no favors for anyone. Friends my age take the same approach.
I’d also agree most of the sentiment of switching jobs. My experience has shown that switching every once in a while will boost your salary. Corporate companies have a hard time keeping up with appropriate compensation for young high performers. I have no appetite to switch every 2 years like the Tic Tac bros suggest.
I discuss salaries and pay raises w/ close friends. No open discussion on the floor with anyone. That just makes you sound like a malcontent and does no favors for anyone. Friends my age take the same approach.
I’d also agree most of the sentiment of switching jobs. My experience has shown that switching every once in a while will boost your salary. Corporate companies have a hard time keeping up with appropriate compensation for young high performers. I have no appetite to switch every 2 years like the Tic Tac bros suggest.
I knew what my folks made at 2 or 3 points while growing up. It was never something discussed. Dad was plant level supervisory and worked a lot of hours. Mom started out on production at a garment plant, but retired in an office job. We did plant gardens. Had some cows or pigs for the butcher or to sell. Cut / sold firewood for some extra money. As some above said, had enough but it wasn't luxury.
1st job after State, my dad did tell me I was making more than he did then. Actually think I was when I was working as a co-op while in school. I don't really discuss my pay with anyone. The wife knows of course but I don't really even share it with my kids who are now grown. It has come up a few times over the years but never just a casual discussion. It usually revolved around school stuff or co-signing rental agreements.
At work, it is discouraged. At least it was when I started 30 yrs ago and everyone my age just chooses not to talk about it. Now, the folks on our production floor are not that way. They openly talk about it and it does cause some issues.
1st job after State, my dad did tell me I was making more than he did then. Actually think I was when I was working as a co-op while in school. I don't really discuss my pay with anyone. The wife knows of course but I don't really even share it with my kids who are now grown. It has come up a few times over the years but never just a casual discussion. It usually revolved around school stuff or co-signing rental agreements.
At work, it is discouraged. At least it was when I started 30 yrs ago and everyone my age just chooses not to talk about it. Now, the folks on our production floor are not that way. They openly talk about it and it does cause some issues.
Why would an auditor be checking a claim that's not an official statistic? Hell, it's usually not written down, just stated by management.
We hired this kid last year as an entry level IT tech. Maybe 25. He came out and asked me one day what I made. Said he just wanted to know what he could expect when he had my level of experience. I told him that's not an appropriate topic. He said "Why?" and "If I ask HR do you think they'll tell me?".
To be fair though, I also have to tell him not to order alcohol at lunch or order two desserts or an extra meal to take home when the company pays. This guy just has zero social awareness. I wasn't sure if it was just him being awkward and weird or if it's the generation as a whole. With your question, I'm leaning towards generational now.
oldmanshakeshandatcloud dot gif
rich kid? Had an ex-coworker that grew up with zero concept of what things cost. Spent company money like it was mommy’s credit card.
It'll show up in MD&A sections of filings as explanations for periodic variances in various P&L lines if management find it helpful for understanding. Doesn't really show up in "official statistics" (assume you are referring to the audited financials and disclosures) that requires an audit opinion but auditors still review it to make sure it's not conflicting with the audited information it is meant to supplement.
I don't even know what the 17 I make. My CPA may be the only human on the planet that has any idea.
Asking about the money part is possibly generational. Asking about your salary in particular rather than asking for ranges is likely him being socially inept. Take some pity on him and coach him about how he should have approached that situation, and no "that's not an appropriate topic" is not coaching. It doesn't give him any context or give him any idea of how to approach getting the information he's interested in without crossing unstated boundaries. People like that aren't likely to ever be socially adept, but they can accumulate enough examples of what to do and not to do that they can delay showing their ineptness until they have built some credibility and goodwill with people. It's not like anybody chooses to be socially inept anymore than people choose to be dumb.
Yeah, I don't follow the financial mumbo jumbo. If management makes the verbal claim that raises were 3%, but really (officially) they were 5%, theyre just saying 3 so people think they got better than avaerage when they didnt, why would an auditor be checking that? How would an auditor even know?
I'll have to check old emails to see if my Corp puts that in writing.
It depends.
Salary ranges (and salaries to a slightly lesser extent) are generally open secrets in my profession given that many people are government employees who like to talk and make comparisons.
Salary ranges (and salaries to a slightly lesser extent) are generally open secrets in my profession given that many people are government employees who like to talk and make comparisons.
They would say they asked employees not to divulge pay info, not ordered them not to. Completely legal to ask, so it would never hold up in court.
That obviously wasn't the entire convesation that we had on the issue.
It was an abridged version to convey a point while preserving brevity.
Thanks for the management tips, though.
Duly noted.
I'm not sure, honestly. If I had to guess,though, I'd say he's not.
He's a nice kid. He just can't interact with people outside of a technology setting.
I'm only referring to the publicly filed stuff, not what HR may be selling you. Management will often publicly explain what's driving a year over year increase or decrease in salaries and wages with commentary similar to how they would with a revenue delta. They'll break out the volume (headcount change due to whatever demand is forcing) and price (avg compensation change due to what market/inflation is driving) and have that explain the net $ movement.
Yeah, I don't follow the financial mumbo jumbo. If management makes the verbal claim that raises were 3%, but really (officially) they were 5%, theyre just saying 3 so people think they got better than avaerage when they didnt, why would an auditor be checking that? How would an auditor even know?
I'll have to check old emails to see if my Corp puts that in writing.
Auditor likely already built out an expectation for salaries expense based on known headcount changes and their independent expectation for wage increases based on what has been seen in that industry/market for the financial statement audit work. For the non-audited management commentary portion, they will typically ask for schedules supporting the calcs and if the inputs jive with what they saw during their actual audit work, they'll move on. If not, they'll push back with a "hey are you sure that's right?"
Well said, and while there are undoubtedly some poor employers out there, I think that there’s a pretty gross misconception that employers’ unwillingness to publicize salaries is all about money hoarding and sticking it to the little man.
In reality, it’s typically much more about the points that you made above, and this idea that two people that have the same job title should be making the same wage isn’t grounded in reality. There are a hundred variables affecting a wage/salary from location and experience to performance ratings and the circumstances surrounding a person’s hiring. In other words, were you pulled from a competitor during a desperate time for the hiring company or are you just gradually moving up the chain within the same company?
As you said, comparing salary between employee A and employee B is rarely as cut and dry as people want to make it, and no one’s more aware of this than local HR.
My parents never told. It was a huge family fight when my brother needed their income to fill out fasfa forms and they refused 
I'm 51, never knew what my parents made and don't really discuss salary in specific, but general "this level makes this" is about all I've done with a handful of closer friends. But I do think it can be healthy - BOTH to discover if you are underpaid, or even fairly paid. I have a feeling that I was actually fairly paid for a while, when I thought I was getting screwed.
For my kids :
We decided to go over "budgeting" recently, to inspire them to get a good job after college. I made a spreadsheet of monthly expenses for what they should expect after college, and then said "Ok if you want all these things, you need to make X out of college and you're not making that without a degree."
Then I adjusted the spreadsheet to show our family expenses. They kids said "So, how much do you make?" and I told them "well, it's more than that". So I think it was pretty productive. They don't know how much I make but they know the minimum.
For my kids :
We decided to go over "budgeting" recently, to inspire them to get a good job after college. I made a spreadsheet of monthly expenses for what they should expect after college, and then said "Ok if you want all these things, you need to make X out of college and you're not making that without a degree."
Then I adjusted the spreadsheet to show our family expenses. They kids said "So, how much do you make?" and I told them "well, it's more than that". So I think it was pretty productive. They don't know how much I make but they know the minimum.
It is certainly a recent development. I graduated State and started the real world in 2005. It was not like this when I started my career. As an employer, I assume that everybody knows what everybody makes.
I was raised the same way - money and politics were rarely discussed. I come from a family of alcohol drinking Backrow Baptist. Aside from my Daddy breaking the 3rd commandment when Mississippi State would do Mississippi State does, Theology was not brought up very much either.
Politics is all people talk about now - on social media and elsewhere.
I am curious to hear from those who hide or won’t talk about their salary to their older children, what the reason or reasonI am curious to hear from those who hide or won’t talk about their salary to their older children, what the reason is.
like, what is the downside of discussing that? This obviously assumes the kids are old enough to have an understanding of basic finances.
Productive knowledge can be powerful.
like, what is the downside of discussing that? This obviously assumes the kids are old enough to have an understanding of basic finances.
Productive knowledge can be powerful.
My mom was a health admin for the state. Her salary was publicly posted. My dad idk, I have a idea, but he did alot of side gigs.
They did not discuss their salary, nor did any adult in my life as a child. Looking back it seemed a bit taboo
I wouldn't go as far as to say that I'm intentionally hiding it from my kids, but in terms of "need to know", I just don't feel like it's anything that they need to know nor do I feel that any particularly good would come from it at this point. With the way that they talk to friends, it'd just be a matter of time before someone blabs something, that kid say something to their parents, and then things eventually find a way to get awkward.
I get it... it all seems a little silly, but I've got a close friend that started doing very well for herself when she hit 30 or so, and at some random girls night that my wife happened to be attending years ago, everyone found out what she made. Ever since then, our group of old HS friends will be having the best time until someone hints that she should be picking up the tab or whatever, and things get awkward.
Anyway, it's not something that I'm super passionate about either way, but I guess I just feel like there will be a time for my kids to know, and that time isn't now
I feel kids don't have a good sense of where money goes, so to say "we make X dollars" is to invite thought of "well you make more than enough to buy Y".
I don't think I'll discuss it until my kids are approaching the job market. But I'll be retired long before then, so maybe earlier.
Smart man but I think with friends and family they already know where you stand on politics but with acquaintances/customers - most anyway, probably not a good idea.
My dad never shared with me what he made until he got in bad health late in life. He went through everything with my brother and I so that we would know exactly what should be for pension ( last person I ever knew with a real non-government pension), 401k, etc. so we could make sure Mom was treated fairly by all.
Wife and I shared what we made with our kids when they got their first real adult job to give perspective with helping them figure out how to budget.
I've had conversations with coworkers about where we were in the paygrade relative to midpoint but never specific dollar amounts.
Wife and I shared what we made with our kids when they got their first real adult job to give perspective with helping them figure out how to budget.
I've had conversations with coworkers about where we were in the paygrade relative to midpoint but never specific dollar amounts.
In my personal experience, HR doesn't even want you to know what the official range is for your position's salary. I went through a department change within my last company, and they took away a promotion opportunity during it - I went from Level 2 (out of 4) in my old dept. to a Level 3 (out of 4) in the new dept, and received $0 in raise. I didn't want the raise, I wanted to be kept Level 2 so I could learn the new dept, become proficient, and promote up to Level 3 and then 4 later. I asked why I was moved to a 3. Manager said it's HR's fault, HR said talk to manager. Finally they said Old Dept Level 2 salary range = New Dept Level 3 salary range, but they wouldn't tell me what the range was. They didn't care one iota that I'm losing a promotion opportunity to do this, I was treated as if "well you wanted this move, but here's the consequence". Never mind that I'd been working with plant leadership on a progression scale, and inter-departmental experience was one of the 2 big boxes to check.
Months later I saw some errant paperwork left on the copier, and our newest coworker was hired at $10k more than me, at a Level 2. I took the paperwork straight to HR to re-start my argument and all I was met with was "but he's got more experience, longer record, awesome references, etc.". I didn't care that he made more than me. I hope everyone makes $1M/yr. I was pissed that he was hired at a lower level, the same level they refused to put me back to. Ended up leaving that company 3 months later.
So in my opinion, go ahead and share salary and compensation info with everyone you work with. Use it to challenge HR (within reason, don't just cry for more $ bc Bob makes $3k more and you think he's an idiot). HR sure ain't there to look out for you...
Months later I saw some errant paperwork left on the copier, and our newest coworker was hired at $10k more than me, at a Level 2. I took the paperwork straight to HR to re-start my argument and all I was met with was "but he's got more experience, longer record, awesome references, etc.". I didn't care that he made more than me. I hope everyone makes $1M/yr. I was pissed that he was hired at a lower level, the same level they refused to put me back to. Ended up leaving that company 3 months later.
So in my opinion, go ahead and share salary and compensation info with everyone you work with. Use it to challenge HR (within reason, don't just cry for more $ bc Bob makes $3k more and you think he's an idiot). HR sure ain't there to look out for you...
I don't talk about income at home but I made sure my kids were scared to ask for money so they'd learn to earn their own. Everybody should be teaching budgeting to their kids and tell them a great accountant can make them money in certain situations.
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