School decisions that could have shaped MS.....

[OG Goat Holder]

Charleston and Vicksburg threads got me thinking. SC is similar in a lot of ways to MS, and it essentially is what MS could be if it grew and added another 2M in population. It's hard to imagine it happening now, but with the demise of our football program, why not ride down the road of negativity a bit longer?

- What if MSU had located in or around the capital like USC did in Columbia? Guaranteed that would have preserved Jackson and the money surrounding a school wouldn't have allowed for the degradation we see now. And even if not in Jackson, let's just say Flora or Edwards or similar to have access to the Delta. I've wasted a ton of time thinking about this, and that's probably the best overall location, outside of the 2 hour circles around Ole Miss, Bama and LSU. Vicksburg likely sees some offshoot and growth, and it's cool already. So either way, with a Jackson campus and playing at the Vet, or having the OKC/Norman setup (while as I type this, is probably better), things would have been different.
- USM likely doesn't exist, so we have South MS all to ourselves. Jackson State may or may not exist as it sits now, perhaps they merge with Alcorn (JSU started in Natchez) and that helps prop up the Natchez area and brings money into there, and again, that area is cool already. And even if USM does form later on, they are like a Coastal Carolina in like Wiggins or something. We maybe cut into the LSU influence in Southwest and South MS, and get away from the Bama influence in Columbus and Meridian.
- The Golden Triangle likely doesn't see the growth it has today, and maybe that means Tupelo thrives more, without splitting resources up there. Could it have become the Greenville, SC of MS? We'll never know. Yes it would be Ole Miss territory similar to Clemson, but oh well. Still MS.
- Does Gulfport become a Charleston? We'd still have hurricanes, but maybe without Hattiesburg sucking resources, Gulfport grows north up the 49 corridor. And you'd probably see an interstate or at minimum a controlled access state highway standard by now on 49 all the way to Jackson, with MSU being there.
- Finally, at minimum, the Jackson metro is a much more viable place to live and attract companies/talent. I would imagine we would not be seeing the same brain drain, and we'd likely have positive growth. Of course, SC is also situated between Atlanta and Charlotte, and that helps. But hey we got Memphis and New Orleans, and that location wouldn't be too far out to East Texas. At minimum there wouldn't be just this 'bleh' when thinking about Jackson.

Oh well, back to reality. The urban area of Jackson is what is key here.

 

[Colonel Kang]

Outside of slavery & any kind of racial issues, not locating MSU or OM near the capital city is likely the dumbest & worst decision in the history of the state. Having either of those institutions near Jackson would've completely changed the trajectory of the capital city & thus the state.

It's so clear that the original Mississippians were weak & stupid people. They made terrible decisions after terrible decisions & somehow failed to not acquire any of Mobile, Memphis, New Orleans, or Baton Rouge, all of which would've been the largest city in the state & only located a few miles away from our boarder.

The original Mississippians were losers. They lost on every decision of consequence.

 

[NawlBennyDawg]

Outside of slavery & any kind of racial issues, not locating MSU or OM near the capital city is likely the dumbest & worst decision in the history of the state. Having either of those institutions near Jackson would've completely changed the trajectory of the capital city & thus the state.

It's so clear that the original Mississippians were weak & stupid people. They made terrible decisions after terrible decisions & somehow failed to not acquire any of Mobile, Memphis, New Orleans, or Baton Rouge, all of which would've been the largest city in the state & only located a few miles away from our boarder.

The original Mississippians were losers. They lost on every decision of consequence.

What could have been...

 

[GloryDawg]

I believe when Ole Miss was founded Jackson was a really small town. Yes, it was capital but small. If the legislative was not in session wasn't much there. Not many people. Larger population up North. Thats why for Ole Miss.

As far as state might be the same reason but 30 years later it might not have been. It might have been where our first chancellor lived closed to.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

I think a governor in the early 1900s had a plan to merge State/OM and move to Jxn?

I wonder if a visionary state leader could have convinced voters/alums/supporters/university leaders to merge the sports programs? Football and WBB based in Oxford and MBB and Baseball in Starkvegas? Would have been a heavy lift, but we'd dominate in all these sports. This could have been done as late as the 80s.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I believe when Ole Miss was founded Jackson was a really small town. Yes, it was capital but small. If the legislative was not in session wasn't much there. Not many people. Larger population up North. Thats why for Ole Miss.

As far as state might be the same reason but 30 years later it might not have been. It might have been where our first chancellor lived closed to.

I can understand this decision. And referring back to SC, didn't seem to hurt them much, not a bad idea to have the two universities situated like that. Of course, up there it happened backwards, USC is much older and went to the capital, and Clemson came along later (funny enough, built in the image of MSU).

I think a governor in the early 1900s had a plan to merge State/OM and move to Jxn?

I wonder if a visionary state leader could have convinced voters/alums/supporters/university leaders to merge the sports programs? Football and WBB based in Oxford and MBB and Baseball in Starkvegas? Would have been a heavy lift, but we'd dominate in all these sports. This could have been done as late as the 80s.

Hard to be that visionary. And the people of Mississippi were so divided back then, would have been difficult to do, that's why the split was happening in the first place. MSU nearly went to Meridian, so not only did they pass on Jackson, they also passed on another decent town (at the time) that was logistically better. They wanted that black prairie soil I guess and wanted to get away from riff raff in Meridian. Baptist Culture strikes again. That's why I say Jackson may not have been the play, but why not somewhere in the middle of there and Vicksburg or slightly north? Right by the ag mecca of the Delta, east LA and SE AR.

And with Vicksburg reeling from the Civil War, could have helped Reconstruction. Crazy.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

It's so clear that the original Mississippians were weak & stupid people. They made terrible decisions after terrible decisions & somehow failed to not acquire any of Mobile, Memphis, New Orleans, or Baton Rouge, all of which would've been the largest city in the state & only located a few miles away from our boarder.

The original Mississippians were losers. They lost on every decision of consequence.

I truly feel like right up until lately, we've STILL managed to do this. We just seem to want to spread ourselves so far out with our projects, grant money, etc. and it wasn't until Joe Max came along did people start talking about consolidating things. It took all the events of 2020 to change the flag. Just seems like everybody is out for themselves and nobody sees the big picture. I mean Starkville and MSU were at odds until the last 15 or years.

But what about the good? The current push for economic development is good, plus the CCID in Jackson. Certainly glad we've held on to the military bases and hey, having 2 SEC programs ain't too shabby either. And as far as MSU, at least we're in the vicinity of Huntsville, with a ton of employers and a decent place for MSU fans to live and still come back to campus in day trips.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

TLDR— Mississippi seriously needs LASIK.

 

[patdog]

I believe when Ole Miss was founded Jackson was a really small town. Yes, it was capital but small. If the legislative was not in session wasn't much there. Not many people. Larger population up North. Thats why for Ole Miss.

As far as state might be the same reason but 30 years later it might not have been. It might have been where our first chancellor lived closed to.

Interesting. A quick Google found the largest Mississippi cities in 1860:
1. Vicksburg - 12,443
2. Natchez - 9,057
3. Columbus - 4,812
4. Jackson - 4,234

Starkville and Oxford were around 1,500 back then.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Interesting. A quick Google found the largest Mississippi cities in 1860:
1. Vicksburg - 12,443
2. Natchez - 9,057
3. Columbus - 4,812
4. Jackson - 4,234

Starkville and Oxford were around 1,500 back then.

Even if you look at all that, if you look around at our neighbors, it still makes you wonder:

- LSU located at the capital;
- South Carolina located at capital;
- Missouri located at capital;
- Florida State located at capital;
- Texas located at capital;
- Oklahoma located in close proximity to the capital;
- Kentucky located in close proximity to the capital;
- Auburn located in general proximity to the capital;
- Georgia Tech located at capital, and Georgia in general proximity;
- Basically all of NC's major schools are in and around the capital;

Arkansas did not, and I think it's fair to say that Little Rock suffered initially, but Walmart and Tyson being up there really changed fortunes for them. And up until 10-15 years ago, nobody thought of Arkansas as a growing, progressive state. They just got lucky because for the longest time, that location appears to have hindered them and the state. Tennessee is another odd one, yeah I realize they have a private Vanderbilt in the capital but still. They kinda got lucky in other ways due to country music.

MSU took the route of Arkansas and Tennessee and well...........we never got lucky.

 

[Colonel Kang]

Even if you look at all that, if you look around at our neighbors, it still makes you wonder:

- LSU located at the capital;
- South Carolina located at capital;
- Missouri located at capital;
- Florida State located at capital;
- Texas located at capital;
- Oklahoma located in close proximity to the capital;
- Kentucky located in close proximity to the capital;
- Auburn located in general proximity to the capital;
- Georgia Tech located at capital, and Georgia in general proximity;
- Basically all of NC's major schools are in and around the capital;

Arkansas did not, and I think it's fair to say that Little Rock suffered initially, but Walmart and Tyson being up there really changed fortunes for them. And up until 10-15 years ago, nobody thought of Arkansas as a growing, progressive state. They just got lucky because for the longest time, that location appears to have hindered them and the state. Tennessee is another odd one, yeah I realize they have a private Vanderbilt in the capital but still. They kinda got lucky in other ways due to country music.

MSU took the route of Arkansas and Tennessee and well...........we never got lucky.

U Tennessee was founded in 1794 & Nashville didn't become the capital until 1843

Nashville's population in 1800 was 345 while Knoxville's was almost 1,000. Due to westward migration, it makes sense that the higher populations in TN around 1800 would've been near the Cumberland Gap, App area

 

[BrunswickDawg]

U Tennessee was founded in 1794 & Nashville didn't become the capital until 1843

Nashville's population in 1800 was 345 while Knoxville's was almost 1,000. Due to westward migration, it makes sense that the higher populations in TN around 1800 would've been near the Cumberland Gap, App area

And UGA was chartered in 1785, with Athens being established as the location and school beginning in 1801. The capitol of Georgia at the time was Louisville (population about 500). At the time Athens only had about 200 residents. Atlanta (originally Terminus) would not exist for another 35+ years and didn't become the capitol of Georgia until 1868. GA Tech wasn't established until 1885 - by which time Atlanta was arguably the leading city in the New South.

 

[GloryDawg]

Interesting. A quick Google found the largest Mississippi cities in 1860:
1. Vicksburg - 12,443
2. Natchez - 9,057
3. Columbus - 4,812
4. Jackson - 4,234

Starkville and Oxford were around 1,500 back then.

Ole Miss was formed in the 1840's. North Miss was more populated.
This is interesting.

https://mississippiencyclopedia.org/entries/population-trends/

 

[OG Goat Holder]

U Tennessee was founded in 1794 & Nashville didn't become the capital until 1843

Nashville's population in 1800 was 345 while Knoxville's was almost 1,000. Due to westward migration, it makes sense that the higher populations in TN around 1800 would've been near the Cumberland Gap, App area

And UGA was chartered in 1785, with Athens being established as the location and school beginning in 1801. The capitol of Georgia at the time was Louisville (population about 500). At the time Athens only had about 200 residents. Atlanta (originally Terminus) would not exist for another 35+ years and didn't become the capitol of Georgia until 1868. GA Tech wasn't established until 1885 - by which time Atlanta was arguably the leading city in the New South.

Both of those decisions make logical sense. And GA wised up and (at least had a hand in) locating their tech school in the capital.

Meanwhile, in MS, whoever had a hand in locating MSU simply just wanted to get as far away from anything and everything possible. Great job guys.

 

[GloryDawg]

I kind of wondered did the slave population make many of the cities like Natchez and Vicksburg larger. Was there a lot of slaves in the northern part of miss?

 

[Anon1664467868]

Somewhere I once read Meridian Was first choice for MSU but it was a railroad hub that had a rough and shady area of town. It was decided that was not a good environment for impressionable young men who could be tempted by the evil vices of whiskey, women and gambling.

 

[LocalBeachBum]

There used to be a historical marker on Pass Road near cowan road that detailed how ole miss was going to be put in Mississippi City, but lost to Oxfart by 1 vote. As a gulf coast native, I’m happy it turned out that way.

 

[seshomoru]

Isn't MSU where it is because the Federal government took it from the Native Americans and gave it to the State to put a land grant institution there? (Morrill Act 1862). When Ole Miss was founded Jackson was basically nothing but a place people stopped on their way to somewhere else along the Natchez Trace. So a lot like today really. The only reason it was the capital is because the geniuses back then thought it had to be in the center of the State, which was a swamp, so LeFleur's Bluff was the compromise.

The worst thing that ever happened to Starkville was that it wasn't anywhere near the Interstate system and you couldn't even take a four lane road there from Jackson until like 2006 or something. The worst thing to happen to Jackson was everything. Stupid reason to make it the capital, Sherman burned it to the ground, it floods, segregation, population flight post segregation, inept local government, state government that couldn't care less about it, etc.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Somewhere I once read Meridian Was first choice for MSU but it was a railroad hub that had a rough and shady area of town. It was decided that was not a good environment for impressionable young men who could be tempted by the evil vices of whiskey, women and gambling.

That's the rumor. And I always thought Meridian should have been the first choice until I read on here about Vicksburg. Then started thinking about how SC has grown and how that was done. It dawned on me finally that the location that serves everything is somewhere in the area west of Jackson. Access to all needed things.

 

[Colonel Kang]

Both of those decisions make logical sense. And GA wised up and (at least had a hand in) locating their tech school in the capital.

Meanwhile, in MS, whoever had a hand in locating MSU simply just wanted to get as far away from anything and everything possible. Great job guys.

Again, the early leaders of MS were weak, stupid, vindictive men

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

The worst thing that ever happened to Starkville was that it wasn't anywhere near the Interstate system and you couldn't even take a four lane road there from Jackson until like 2006 or something.

And 82 wasn't 4 laned from Why-known-er to Starkvegas until the 90s, in spite of likely being one of the busiest highways in N MS. By that time every goat trail with 50 miles of Oxford was 4 laned.

 

[Shmuley]

I kind of wondered did the slave population make many of the cities like Natchez and Vicksburg larger. Was there a lot of slaves in the northern part of miss?

three-fifths larger.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Isn't MSU where it is because the Federal government took it from the Native Americans and gave it to the State to put a land grant institution there? (Morrill Act 1862).

Not sure about the choosing of location. Seems like seized Native American land could be a huge swath.

If so, thus began a long history of MS choosing bailouts and free stuff over logic.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I kind of wondered did the slave population make many of the cities like Natchez and Vicksburg larger. Was there a lot of slaves in the northern part of miss?

Everywhere there was significant farming, there were slaves. North MS had some, Marshall County was one place. Many in the Golden Triangle area too - Black Prairie soil.

 

[patdog]

Again, the early leaders of MS were weak, stupid, vindictive men

It’s not just the early leaders.

 

[mstateglfr]

Meanwhile, in MS, whoever had a hand in locating MSU simply just wanted to get as far away from anything and everything possible. Great job guys.

We are a land grant ag school- I never thought twice about it being in a rural area.
We are known for majors like vet sciences, agronomy and crop sciences, horticulture, landscape architecture, forestry, wildlife and wildlands management, agribusiness, etc etc.

It doesnt make sense to me for a land grant ag school to be located in a major urban area.



With that said, if some easier access to MSU from all directions would have been created decades ago, I bet the state would look a lot different.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Charleston and Vicksburg threads got me thinking. SC is similar in a lot of ways to MS, and it essentially is what MS could be if it grew and added another 2M in population. It's hard to imagine it happening now, but with the demise of our football program, why not ride down the road of negativity a bit longer?

- What if MSU had located in or around the capital like USC did in Columbia? Guaranteed that would have preserved Jackson and the money surrounding a school wouldn't have allowed for the degradation we see now. And even if not in Jackson, let's just say Flora or Edwards or similar to have access to the Delta. I've wasted a ton of time thinking about this, and that's probably the best overall location, outside of the 2 hour circles around Ole Miss, Bama and LSU. Vicksburg likely sees some offshoot and growth, and it's cool already. So either way, with a Jackson campus and playing at the Vet, or having the OKC/Norman setup (while as I type this, is probably better), things would have been different.
- USM likely doesn't exist, so we have South MS all to ourselves. Jackson State may or may not exist as it sits now, perhaps they merge with Alcorn (JSU started in Natchez) and that helps prop up the Natchez area and brings money into there, and again, that area is cool already. And even if USM does form later on, they are like a Coastal Carolina in like Wiggins or something. We maybe cut into the LSU influence in Southwest and South MS, and get away from the Bama influence in Columbus and Meridian.
- The Golden Triangle likely doesn't see the growth it has today, and maybe that means Tupelo thrives more, without splitting resources up there. Could it have become the Greenville, SC of MS? We'll never know. Yes it would be Ole Miss territory similar to Clemson, but oh well. Still MS.
- Does Gulfport become a Charleston? We'd still have hurricanes, but maybe without Hattiesburg sucking resources, Gulfport grows north up the 49 corridor. And you'd probably see an interstate or at minimum a controlled access state highway standard by now on 49 all the way to Jackson, with MSU being there.
- Finally, at minimum, the Jackson metro is a much more viable place to live and attract companies/talent. I would imagine we would not be seeing the same brain drain, and we'd likely have positive growth. Of course, SC is also situated between Atlanta and Charlotte, and that helps. But hey we got Memphis and New Orleans, and that location wouldn't be too far out to East Texas. At minimum there wouldn't be just this 'bleh' when thinking about Jackson.

Oh well, back to reality. The urban area of Jackson is what is key here.

Even easier solution: Starkville is the new state capitol

 

[eckie1]

Even if you look at all that, if you look around at our neighbors, it still makes you wonder:

- LSU located at the capital;
- South Carolina located at capital;
- Missouri located at capital;
- Florida State located at capital;
- Texas located at capital;
- Oklahoma located in close proximity to the capital;
- Kentucky located in close proximity to the capital;
- Auburn located in general proximity to the capital;
- Georgia Tech located at capital, and Georgia in general proximity;
- Basically all of NC's major schools are in and around the capital;

Arkansas did not, and I think it's fair to say that Little Rock suffered initially, but Walmart and Tyson being up there really changed fortunes for them. And up until 10-15 years ago, nobody thought of Arkansas as a growing, progressive state. They just got lucky because for the longest time, that location appears to have hindered them and the state. Tennessee is another odd one, yeah I realize they have a private Vanderbilt in the capital but still. They kinda got lucky in other ways due to country music.

MSU took the route of Arkansas and Tennessee and well...........we never got lucky.

FYI. Jefferson City is the Capitol of Mizzery. Not much going on there.

The Rebs not wanting to allow an A&M school is the sole reason we don’t have one juggernaut school.

 

[Maroon13]

All this talk about what should have been. Talk about What Needs to change or could be if people made tough and hard decisions today.

One, State needs to strong arm MUW and take their nursing school. That would help our student population immediately because of the degree opportunities. OM has engineering. We can have nursing.

Another idea, jucos are relocating to urban areas every day. State can buy or build something in Madison for general Ed classes. Just start there and see where it goes.

With all that said, maybe 50 years from now, people will be glad State is where it is. The GTR is landing some Industry and gaining jobs.

 

[Mjoelner]

FYI. Jefferson City is the Capitol of Mizzery. Not much going on there.

The Rebs not wanting to allow an A&M school is the sole reason we don’t have one juggernaut school.

This is exactly what I read in an article years ago. The A&M part was going to be formed at UM (It may have actually happened for one year. I don't remember) but then the rich delta planters put their foot down because they didn't want people they considered as the help being educated along side their golden children.

I'm not sure on this at all but I'm betting we got placed in Starkville because Stephen D. Lee lived in Columbus and Boardtown/Starkville was the first settlement from Columbus west of the Tombigbee

 

[OG Goat Holder]

All this talk about what should have been. Talk about What Needs to change or could be if people made tough and hard decisions today.

One, State needs to strong arm MUW and take their nursing school. That would help our student population immediately because of the degree opportunities. OM has engineering. We can have nursing.

Another idea, jucos are relocating to urban areas every day. State can buy or build something in Madison for general Ed classes. Just start there and see where it goes.

With all that said, maybe 50 years from now, people will be glad State is where it is. The GTR is landing some Industry and gaining jobs.

I feel you. At this point, I think we've just beat to death what needs to happen. It's going to be a slow process. The projects we do land, need to be in strategically consolidated areas (Tupelo, Golden Triangle, Jackson, Meridian, Hattiesburg, the Coast). Grow those areas, they are really the only true places where out of state people will move. Some will say Desoto area, that's a part of Memphis. Good for MS, yes, but by and large it's an off-shoot of the Memphis economy and it takes care of itself. Oxford is just Ole Miss and it takes care of itself too.

Job growth in these areas is the only way up. We don't have any big tourism, really only the Coast gambling, some history here and there like Natchez/Vicksburg. Mississippians love to go spend their money elsewhere. Hard to fight that. We really don't even have hunting, as we can't compete with the big country areas out west. So that's small potatoes too.

- Coast: gambling, water, good employer, military base, airport, has some urbanism
- Jackson: capital city, employer base, airport, only real urban area
- GT: MSU, MUW, employer base, military base, airport
- Hattiesburg: USM, others, military base, interstate access, airport
- Tupelo: employer base, interstate access, airport
- Meridian: employer base, interstate access, airport

Most money, time and effort should be directed to these areas. Sure, other areas can grow organically if it happens. But real planning and intentionality should be sent to the Big 6 above. Or we can just continue to fight over the scraps and keep sending our kids to Dallas and Atlanta.

 

[Johnnie Come Lately]

Charleston and Vicksburg threads got me thinking. SC is similar in a lot of ways to MS, and it essentially is what MS could be if it grew and added another 2M in population. It's hard to imagine it happening now, but with the demise of our football program, why not ride down the road of negativity a bit longer?

- What if MSU had located in or around the capital like USC did in Columbia? Guaranteed that would have preserved Jackson and the money surrounding a school wouldn't have allowed for the degradation we see now. And even if not in Jackson, let's just say Flora or Edwards or similar to have access to the Delta. I've wasted a ton of time thinking about this, and that's probably the best overall location, outside of the 2 hour circles around Ole Miss, Bama and LSU. Vicksburg likely sees some offshoot and growth, and it's cool already. So either way, with a Jackson campus and playing at the Vet, or having the OKC/Norman setup (while as I type this, is probably better), things would have been different.
- USM likely doesn't exist, so we have South MS all to ourselves. Jackson State may or may not exist as it sits now, perhaps they merge with Alcorn (JSU started in Natchez) and that helps prop up the Natchez area and brings money into there, and again, that area is cool already. And even if USM does form later on, they are like a Coastal Carolina in like Wiggins or something. We maybe cut into the LSU influence in Southwest and South MS, and get away from the Bama influence in Columbus and Meridian.
- The Golden Triangle likely doesn't see the growth it has today, and maybe that means Tupelo thrives more, without splitting resources up there. Could it have become the Greenville, SC of MS? We'll never know. Yes it would be Ole Miss territory similar to Clemson, but oh well. Still MS.
- Does Gulfport become a Charleston? We'd still have hurricanes, but maybe without Hattiesburg sucking resources, Gulfport grows north up the 49 corridor. And you'd probably see an interstate or at minimum a controlled access state highway standard by now on 49 all the way to Jackson, with MSU being there.
- Finally, at minimum, the Jackson metro is a much more viable place to live and attract companies/talent. I would imagine we would not be seeing the same brain drain, and we'd likely have positive growth. Of course, SC is also situated between Atlanta and Charlotte, and that helps. But hey we got Memphis and New Orleans, and that location wouldn't be too far out to East Texas. At minimum there wouldn't be just this 'bleh' when thinking about Jackson.

Oh well, back to reality. The urban area of Jackson is what is key here.

Charleston had the benefit of being major port since before the American Revolution.

A limited access / interstate grade highway from the coast to the central part of the State would be big big positive - for commerce / economic purposes, and also the fact that 49 from Jackson to the coast is probably the most dangerous stretch of highway in the state. You would think with all the powerful people that Mississippi has had in Congress in the modern era - Stennis, Eastland, Whitten, Lott, Cochran - that is something that could have been obtained.

 

[L4Dawg]

Isn't MSU where it is because the Federal government took it from the Native Americans and gave it to the State to put a land grant institution there? (Morrill Act 1862). When Ole Miss was founded Jackson was basically nothing but a place people stopped on their way to somewhere else along the Natchez Trace. So a lot like today really. The only reason it was the capital is because the geniuses back then thought it had to be in the center of the State, which was a swamp, so LeFleur's Bluff was the compromise.

The worst thing that ever happened to Starkville was that it wasn't anywhere near the Interstate system and you couldn't even take a four lane road there from Jackson until like 2006 or something. The worst thing to happen to Jackson was everything. Stupid reason to make it the capital, Sherman burned it to the ground, it floods, segregation, population flight post segregation, inept local government, state government that couldn't care less about it, etc.

The land grants were not the grant of land where the university stood. They were tracts of land that were sold to support the land grant universities.

 

[NawlBennyDawg]

This is exactly what I read in an article years ago. The A&M part was going to be formed at UM (It may have actually happened for one year. I don't remember) but then the rich delta planters put their foot down because they didn't want people they considered as the help being educated along side their golden children.

I'm not sure on this at all but I'm betting we got placed in Starkville because Stephen D. Lee lived in Columbus and Boardtown/Starkville was the first settlement from Columbus west of the Tombigbee

And many, many years later, nothing about UM has changed.

 

[J-Dawg]

That's the rumor. And I always thought Meridian should have been the first choice until I read on here about Vicksburg. Then started thinking about how SC has grown and how that was done. It dawned on me finally that the location that serves everything is somewhere in the area west of Jackson. Access to all needed things.

The most logical choice for MSU would have been none other than “cow town”….. aka Bovina, MS.

 

[Mr. Cook]

Charleston and Vicksburg threads got me thinking. SC is similar in a lot of ways to MS, and it essentially is what MS could be if it grew and added another 2M in population. It's hard to imagine it happening now, but with the demise of our football program, why not ride down the road of negativity a bit longer?

- What if MSU had located in or around the capital like USC did in Columbia? Guaranteed that would have preserved Jackson and the money surrounding a school wouldn't have allowed for the degradation we see now. And even if not in Jackson, let's just say Flora or Edwards or similar to have access to the Delta. I've wasted a ton of time thinking about this, and that's probably the best overall location, outside of the 2 hour circles around Ole Miss, Bama and LSU. Vicksburg likely sees some offshoot and growth, and it's cool already. So either way, with a Jackson campus and playing at the Vet, or having the OKC/Norman setup (while as I type this, is probably better), things would have been different.
- USM likely doesn't exist, so we have South MS all to ourselves. Jackson State may or may not exist as it sits now, perhaps they merge with Alcorn (JSU started in Natchez) and that helps prop up the Natchez area and brings money into there, and again, that area is cool already. And even if USM does form later on, they are like a Coastal Carolina in like Wiggins or something. We maybe cut into the LSU influence in Southwest and South MS, and get away from the Bama influence in Columbus and Meridian.
- The Golden Triangle likely doesn't see the growth it has today, and maybe that means Tupelo thrives more, without splitting resources up there. Could it have become the Greenville, SC of MS? We'll never know. Yes it would be Ole Miss territory similar to Clemson, but oh well. Still MS.
- Does Gulfport become a Charleston? We'd still have hurricanes, but maybe without Hattiesburg sucking resources, Gulfport grows north up the 49 corridor. And you'd probably see an interstate or at minimum a controlled access state highway standard by now on 49 all the way to Jackson, with MSU being there.
- Finally, at minimum, the Jackson metro is a much more viable place to live and attract companies/talent. I would imagine we would not be seeing the same brain drain, and we'd likely have positive growth. Of course, SC is also situated between Atlanta and Charlotte, and that helps. But hey we got Memphis and New Orleans, and that location wouldn't be too far out to East Texas. At minimum there wouldn't be just this 'bleh' when thinking about Jackson.

Oh well, back to reality. The urban area of Jackson is what is key here.

Don't compare apples to oranges; the parallels you are attempting to make aren't fair comparisons for a variety of reasons (although I compliment you on the attempt). Just about every Southeastern state is decades ahead of Mississippi in multiple KPIs. (for a sample see: US Census: MS, SC, NC)

Identify Mississippi's strengths and key assets and build on them. I would start with the MS Gulf Coast.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Don't compare apples to oranges; the parallels you are attempting to make aren't fair comparisons for a variety of reasons (although I compliment you on the attempt). Just about every Southeastern state is decades ahead of Mississippi in multiple KPIs. (for a sample see: US Census: MS, SC, NC)

Identify Mississippi's strengths and key assets and build on them. I would start with the MS Gulf Coast.

It’s a what if. We may not have 5M like SC, but maybe have 3.5 or 4 and we still would have a viable capital city like Columbia, and not be talking as much about brain drain. Not sure why you’re including NC - nothing about it is comparable to MS and I never tried to do that.

To your second point, ignoring the what if and fast forwarding to present day, one the key assets, if we had any I’m sure we would have already discussed. The Coast is what it is. A nice place that is vulnerable to storms. They are doing about as well as can do down there presently.

 

[jaredtphoto]

Yeah I know I don't post a lot but I sure read here often. I figured I would contribute to this thread as this has been something that I have researched and read about for the past 3 years. I am not a full time researcher but I have often wondered, why did they choose Starkville,MS as the location for MSU???

Here is what I've found after reading several newspapers from the 1800's thru early 1900's.

1. There was apparently a Madison College based in Sharon,MS and its president, HF Johnson, asked the state of Mississippi to allow it to be used by the state as the independent A&M college in the Feb 5, 1867 edition of the Clarion Ledger.

2. In 1872, the newspapers get a little weird. I can't find the beginning point but the state of Mississippi was given $189,000 to be used for the land grant institution immediately. But the state failed to establish one and used the money for something else and was "legally and morally forfeited." I really can't find in the newspapers exactly what happened but I am still digging into it, theres a bunch of legal jargon that I haven't gone thru.

3. From 1872-1876 no mention for an A&M school except Texas A&M and how Mississippi needs one like Texas.

January 19, 1877 JB Yellowley of Madison, introduced a bill to establish an institution of this character. (agricultural and mechanical college). It did not pass.

Monday, January 21, 1878 -- Mr. Tucker Organized the house and senate to organiz an agricultural and mechanical college.

January 28, 1878. The house met at 3:30 PM on a special session to establish the Agricultural and Mechanical College. It was close but 59 YAYS to 26 NAYS. 30 absent-no votes. it listed the names but not sure if that matters. It clears up the 1872 article that says "if it becomes law, it will appropriate to its legitimate objects of the land scrip fund donated to the state, which was misapplied under Republican rule."

On February 22, 1878 someone wrote a letter to the editor of the Clarion Ledger fighting the establishment for a college for farmers. I can transcribe it later if people would like to read it. But it's a long argument. They called it "The poor boys college"

March 13, 1878 -- The trustee's of the A&M College of the State of Mississippi were appointed by the governor. They included AM West from Holly Springs, Frank Burkett, Okolona, Chas Gilmer, Sharon,MS. There were more but they were not listed.

March 26, 1878 -- Macon Mississippi was the first community to organize and try to secure the location of MSU.

March 27, 1878 -- the State of Mississippi released thru the Clarion Ledger with the establishment of MSU and Alcorn. It states that the trustees shall immediately procure lands not less than 160 acres of land. In the selection of said site and farm, the trustees shall look to the convenience of the people in every section of Mississippi.

March 27, 2878 -- Brandon residents submitted a proposal for the location of A&M. Okolona also put in a proposal but it was not taken seriously apparently.

April 3, 1878 -- McComb City proposed the location of A&M College.

April 5, 2878 -- Durant was a proposed location.

6 of the 9 trustees appointed for locating the new college lived NORTH of the Vicksburg and Meridian railroad (basically interstate 20 now). That means that from the started in the Northeast or Northwest sections of the state...many had wondered in letters to the editor if it would be in Memphis.

May 1, 1878 -- it came out that in order to be considered for the new state college, it must first be in East Mississippi and on the M&O Railroad, 3rd at the point of good soil, climate and endowment. Under those conditions the choice would lie between Meridian and West Point. The Clarion

It mentions Starkville -- which is wet and muddy and disagreeable in wet weather. But the citizens of Starkville wanted it and introduced a tax to pay for it.

May 17, 1878 -- Gen Joseph Davis of Harrison County met with the senate to establish the new college in the county on the seacoast. On the motion, no votes were taken.

In June they took bids, in August the trustees went to sites to visit but apparently a yellow fever epidemic broke out and they paused site selection until it went away.


In the bids -- the following was received.

McComb offered 440 acres of the Mississippi Valley Company land lying between Summit and McComb, $6,000 in cash, 150,000 feet of good lumber, 200 acres in Pike County and the New Orleans and St Louis railroad would transport free of charge 2,000 tons of building material for the college and all students would get half fare forever.

Crystal Springs offered $10,000 in cash.

Sharon,MS (Madison County) offered $10,000, their old college domain and proposed to put the buildings in first class order and an adjacent tract of land of 160 acres.

Kosciusko offered $10,000 and 160 acres of land.

Winona offered $8,000

Meridian offered $25,000 and land (didn't say how much)

Macon offered $40,000 plus 160 acres of land.

Starkville -- DH Montgomery offered $6,000 and DH Montgomery would donate a portion of his land.

In an article in the "Chronicle" -- it reports that "Surely Starkville is gaining notoriety. We do not think, however, all this comes from locating the agricultural college in Starkville -- not by any means." Apparently there were a couple of murders there during this search.

And if you're still reading, what you've all been waiting for!

April 11, 1879 -- The Yazoo Herald
"The Board of Trustees of the Mississippi Agricultural and Mechanical College have selected a property of Mr. William Bell, situated about 3 miles from Starkville, containing three hundred acres, as the location for that institution -- at a cost of seven dollars per acre. All necessary buildings will be erected as soon as possible -- so that the College may be opened on the first of January next."


It's really weird how the newspapers work, I guess like message boards today -- you'd get one thing and then bam, it goes a different direction all of a sudden. I can post screenshots or try to transcribe whole articles if someone is really interested. But when you look at the cities that submitted a proposal it makes you wonder why they chose Starkville.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Yeah I know I don't post a lot but I sure read here often. I figured I would contribute to this thread as this has been something that I have researched and read about for the past 3 years. I am not a full time researcher but I have often wondered, why did they choose Starkville,MS as the location for MSU???

Here is what I've found after reading several newspapers from the 1800's thru early 1900's.

1. There was apparently a Madison College based in Sharon,MS and its president, HF Johnson, asked the state of Mississippi to allow it to be used by the state as the independent A&M college in the Feb 5, 1867 edition of the Clarion Ledger.

2. In 1872, the newspapers get a little weird. I can't find the beginning point but the state of Mississippi was given $189,000 to be used for the land grant institution immediately. But the state failed to establish one and used the money for something else and was "legally and morally forfeited." I really can't find in the newspapers exactly what happened but I am still digging into it, theres a bunch of legal jargon that I haven't gone thru.

3. From 1872-1876 no mention for an A&M school except Texas A&M and how Mississippi needs one like Texas.

January 19, 1877 JB Yellowley of Madison, introduced a bill to establish an institution of this character. (agricultural and mechanical college). It did not pass.

Monday, January 21, 1878 -- Mr. Tucker Organized the house and senate to organiz an agricultural and mechanical college.

January 28, 1878. The house met at 3:30 PM on a special session to establish the Agricultural and Mechanical College. It was close but 59 YAYS to 26 NAYS. 30 absent-no votes. it listed the names but not sure if that matters. It clears up the 1872 article that says "if it becomes law, it will appropriate to its legitimate objects of the land scrip fund donated to the state, which was misapplied under Republican rule."

On February 22, 1878 someone wrote a letter to the editor of the Clarion Ledger fighting the establishment for a college for farmers. I can transcribe it later if people would like to read it. But it's a long argument. They called it "The poor boys college"

March 13, 1878 -- The trustee's of the A&M College of the State of Mississippi were appointed by the governor. They included AM West from Holly Springs, Frank Burkett, Okolona, Chas Gilmer, Sharon,MS. There were more but they were not listed.

March 26, 1878 -- Macon Mississippi was the first community to organize and try to secure the location of MSU.

March 27, 1878 -- the State of Mississippi released thru the Clarion Ledger with the establishment of MSU and Alcorn. It states that the trustees shall immediately procure lands not less than 160 acres of land. In the selection of said site and farm, the trustees shall look to the convenience of the people in every section of Mississippi.

March 27, 2878 -- Brandon residents submitted a proposal for the location of A&M. Okolona also put in a proposal but it was not taken seriously apparently.

April 3, 1878 -- McComb City proposed the location of A&M College.

April 5, 2878 -- Durant was a proposed location.

6 of the 9 trustees appointed for locating the new college lived NORTH of the Vicksburg and Meridian railroad (basically interstate 20 now). That means that from the started in the Northeast or Northwest sections of the state...many had wondered in letters to the editor if it would be in Memphis.

May 1, 1878 -- it came out that in order to be considered for the new state college, it must first be in East Mississippi and on the M&O Railroad, 3rd at the point of good soil, climate and endowment. Under those conditions the choice would lie between Meridian and West Point. The Clarion

It mentions Starkville -- which is wet and muddy and disagreeable in wet weather. But the citizens of Starkville wanted it and introduced a tax to pay for it.

May 17, 1878 -- Gen Joseph Davis of Harrison County met with the senate to establish the new college in the county on the seacoast. On the motion, no votes were taken.

In June they took bids, in August the trustees went to sites to visit but apparently a yellow fever epidemic broke out and they paused site selection until it went away.


In the bids -- the following was received.

McComb offered 440 acres of the Mississippi Valley Company land lying between Summit and McComb, $6,000 in cash, 150,000 feet of good lumber, 200 acres in Pike County and the New Orleans and St Louis railroad would transport free of charge 2,000 tons of building material for the college and all students would get half fare forever.

Crystal Springs offered $10,000 in cash.

Sharon,MS (Madison County) offered $10,000, their old college domain and proposed to put the buildings in first class order and an adjacent tract of land of 160 acres.

Kosciusko offered $10,000 and 160 acres of land.

Winona offered $8,000

Meridian offered $25,000 and land (didn't say how much)

Macon offered $40,000 plus 160 acres of land.

Starkville -- DH Montgomery offered $6,000 and DH Montgomery would donate a portion of his land.

In an article in the "Chronicle" -- it reports that "Surely Starkville is gaining notoriety. We do not think, however, all this comes from locating the agricultural college in Starkville -- not by any means." Apparently there were a couple of murders there during this search.

And if you're still reading, what you've all been waiting for!

April 11, 1879 -- The Yazoo Herald
"The Board of Trustees of the Mississippi Agricultural and Mechanical College have selected a property of Mr. William Bell, situated about 3 miles from Starkville, containing three hundred acres, as the location for that institution -- at a cost of seven dollars per acre. All necessary buildings will be erected as soon as possible -- so that the College may be opened on the first of January next."


It's really weird how the newspapers work, I guess like message boards today -- you'd get one thing and then bam, it goes a different direction all of a sudden. I can post screenshots or try to transcribe whole articles if someone is really interested. But when you look at the cities that submitted a proposal it makes you wonder why they chose Starkville.

Wow……that is some seriously incredible research. Like the best and most informative post on 6pack. Good stuff

 

[ZombieKissinger]

Yeah I know I don't post a lot but I sure read here often. I figured I would contribute to this thread as this has been something that I have researched and read about for the past 3 years. I am not a full time researcher but I have often wondered, why did they choose Starkville,MS as the location for MSU???

Here is what I've found after reading several newspapers from the 1800's thru early 1900's.

1. There was apparently a Madison College based in Sharon,MS and its president, HF Johnson, asked the state of Mississippi to allow it to be used by the state as the independent A&M college in the Feb 5, 1867 edition of the Clarion Ledger.

2. In 1872, the newspapers get a little weird. I can't find the beginning point but the state of Mississippi was given $189,000 to be used for the land grant institution immediately. But the state failed to establish one and used the money for something else and was "legally and morally forfeited." I really can't find in the newspapers exactly what happened but I am still digging into it, theres a bunch of legal jargon that I haven't gone thru.

3. From 1872-1876 no mention for an A&M school except Texas A&M and how Mississippi needs one like Texas.

January 19, 1877 JB Yellowley of Madison, introduced a bill to establish an institution of this character. (agricultural and mechanical college). It did not pass.

Monday, January 21, 1878 -- Mr. Tucker Organized the house and senate to organiz an agricultural and mechanical college.

January 28, 1878. The house met at 3:30 PM on a special session to establish the Agricultural and Mechanical College. It was close but 59 YAYS to 26 NAYS. 30 absent-no votes. it listed the names but not sure if that matters. It clears up the 1872 article that says "if it becomes law, it will appropriate to its legitimate objects of the land scrip fund donated to the state, which was misapplied under Republican rule."

On February 22, 1878 someone wrote a letter to the editor of the Clarion Ledger fighting the establishment for a college for farmers. I can transcribe it later if people would like to read it. But it's a long argument. They called it "The poor boys college"

March 13, 1878 -- The trustee's of the A&M College of the State of Mississippi were appointed by the governor. They included AM West from Holly Springs, Frank Burkett, Okolona, Chas Gilmer, Sharon,MS. There were more but they were not listed.

March 26, 1878 -- Macon Mississippi was the first community to organize and try to secure the location of MSU.

March 27, 1878 -- the State of Mississippi released thru the Clarion Ledger with the establishment of MSU and Alcorn. It states that the trustees shall immediately procure lands not less than 160 acres of land. In the selection of said site and farm, the trustees shall look to the convenience of the people in every section of Mississippi.

March 27, 2878 -- Brandon residents submitted a proposal for the location of A&M. Okolona also put in a proposal but it was not taken seriously apparently.

April 3, 1878 -- McComb City proposed the location of A&M College.

April 5, 2878 -- Durant was a proposed location.

6 of the 9 trustees appointed for locating the new college lived NORTH of the Vicksburg and Meridian railroad (basically interstate 20 now). That means that from the started in the Northeast or Northwest sections of the state...many had wondered in letters to the editor if it would be in Memphis.

May 1, 1878 -- it came out that in order to be considered for the new state college, it must first be in East Mississippi and on the M&O Railroad, 3rd at the point of good soil, climate and endowment. Under those conditions the choice would lie between Meridian and West Point. The Clarion

It mentions Starkville -- which is wet and muddy and disagreeable in wet weather. But the citizens of Starkville wanted it and introduced a tax to pay for it.

May 17, 1878 -- Gen Joseph Davis of Harrison County met with the senate to establish the new college in the county on the seacoast. On the motion, no votes were taken.

In June they took bids, in August the trustees went to sites to visit but apparently a yellow fever epidemic broke out and they paused site selection until it went away.


In the bids -- the following was received.

McComb offered 440 acres of the Mississippi Valley Company land lying between Summit and McComb, $6,000 in cash, 150,000 feet of good lumber, 200 acres in Pike County and the New Orleans and St Louis railroad would transport free of charge 2,000 tons of building material for the college and all students would get half fare forever.

Crystal Springs offered $10,000 in cash.

Sharon,MS (Madison County) offered $10,000, their old college domain and proposed to put the buildings in first class order and an adjacent tract of land of 160 acres.

Kosciusko offered $10,000 and 160 acres of land.

Winona offered $8,000

Meridian offered $25,000 and land (didn't say how much)

Macon offered $40,000 plus 160 acres of land.

Starkville -- DH Montgomery offered $6,000 and DH Montgomery would donate a portion of his land.

In an article in the "Chronicle" -- it reports that "Surely Starkville is gaining notoriety. We do not think, however, all this comes from locating the agricultural college in Starkville -- not by any means." Apparently there were a couple of murders there during this search.

And if you're still reading, what you've all been waiting for!

April 11, 1879 -- The Yazoo Herald
"The Board of Trustees of the Mississippi Agricultural and Mechanical College have selected a property of Mr. William Bell, situated about 3 miles from Starkville, containing three hundred acres, as the location for that institution -- at a cost of seven dollars per acre. All necessary buildings will be erected as soon as possible -- so that the College may be opened on the first of January next."


It's really weird how the newspapers work, I guess like message boards today -- you'd get one thing and then bam, it goes a different direction all of a sudden. I can post screenshots or try to transcribe whole articles if someone is really interested. But when you look at the cities that submitted a proposal it makes you wonder why they chose Starkville.

Great job. This was fascinating. The Republican money thing during reconstruction is probably a really interesting story as well