So, just to clarify for the smug Kingston apologists

[will110]

Evidently all an SEC has to do is not finish in the bottom three to make the playoffs... bottom three out of 14 (soon 16) teams. I dont care what team you are on in the SEC, that is not a huge accomplishment. Ok so what's the reward? A regional... a four team weekend tournament with one ranked team in it. A good test but not exactly a milestone achievement either. Let's face it, making the postseason isn't what it used to be, not for an SEC team.... which means neither is being in a regional. Ok what's next? Supers. Weekend series, best of three with a proven winner. Is getting there good enough? It's good but given the path there, gotta say not enough. Winning it? Now we are getting somewhere. Winner goes to Omaha. Satisfaction lays there.

Good points. This is why I think analysis of South Carolina baseball must start with the regular season and why I think Kingston needs to be replaced, regardless of what happens in the postseason.

Postseason baseball at any level is a crapshoot. There's a reason the best two teams in major league baseball the last two years - the Braves and Dodgers - have failed to get even to the NLCS. There's a reason Ole Miss snuck into the postseason a couple years ago, proceeded to win a national championship, then have back-to-back losing seasons.

Postseason results are a poor metric for program health. Replacing the grind of a 4 month season with a couple weeks in May and June is an extremely small sample size.

Kingston's overall winning percentage at Carolina is .586. His overall SEC winning percentage is .464. He's never had back-to-back winning conference records. Yes, he has made the postseason more often than he's missed it. Yes, he's made a pair of super regionals, both times getting to one game from Omaha. But taking his resume as a whole - mediocre overall record with poor conference record - there's no reason to believe the program is a couple plays from turning into a serious national contender.

For some programs, what Kingston has done at South Carolina may be good enough. He's not been terrible by any analysis. But this is South Carolina baseball. It's an elite program. It's a program that should expect more.

Finally, I know that SEC baseball is really tough. Eleven tournament teams proves that. But it hasn't hurt Tennessee, for example. They've had 50+ wins 3 of the last 4 years. That proves it's still possible to build a strong, competitive program.

 

[Spinal Tap]

It has to be tough to live in the shadow of Ray. Especially when he's your current boss. It's different from the former coach moving on to retirement or elsewhere.

Kingston is a benefactor of what came before him. The table had been set and the expectations known for anyone taking the job as HC at Carolina.

If Kingston doesn't make a SR or he does and doesn't get it done I'd think Ray has to let him go and do a real search for a replacement.

Another fish or cut bait AD decision for the sitting AD.

It's not entirely based on a season, but the body of work in your tenure based on what you had in place when you came.

 

[Rogue Cock]

Evidently all an SEC has to do is not finish in the bottom three to make the playoffs... bottom three out of 14 (soon 16) teams. I dont care what team you are on in the SEC, that is not a huge accomplishment. Ok so what's the reward? A regional... a four team weekend tournament with one ranked team in it. A good test but not exactly a milestone achievement either. Let's face it, making the postseason isn't what it used to be, not for an SEC team.... which means neither is being in a regional. Ok what's next? Supers. Weekend series, best of three with a proven winner. Is getting there good enough? It's good but given the path there, gotta say not enough. Winning it? Now we are getting somewhere. Winner goes to Omaha. Satisfaction lays there.

So the Sweet Sixteen is good enough in basketball but not baseball. Interesting take.

 

[Rogue Cock]

Good points. This is why I think analysis of South Carolina baseball must start with the regular season and why I think Kingston needs to be replaced, regardless of what happens in the postseason.

Postseason baseball at any level is a crapshoot. There's a reason the best two teams in major league baseball the last two years - the Braves and Dodgers - have failed to get even to the NLCS. There's a reason Ole Miss snuck into the postseason a couple years ago, proceeded to win a national championship, then have back-to-back losing seasons.

Postseason results are a poor metric for program health. Replacing the grind of a 4 month season with a couple weeks in May and June is an extremely small sample size.

Kingston's overall winning percentage at Carolina is .586. His overall SEC winning percentage is .464. He's never had back-to-back winning conference records. Yes, he has made the postseason more often than he's missed it. Yes, he's made a pair of super regionals, both times getting to one game from Omaha. But taking his resume as a whole - mediocre overall record with poor conference record - there's no reason to believe the program is a couple plays from turning into a serious national contender.

For some programs, what Kingston has done at South Carolina may be good enough. He's not been terrible by any analysis. But this is South Carolina baseball. It's an elite program. It's a program that should expect more.

Finally, I know that SEC baseball is really tough. Eleven tournament teams proves that. But it hasn't hurt Tennessee, for example. They've had 50+ wins 3 of the last 4 years. That proves it's still possible to build a strong, competitive program.

Isn't that the kind of attitude that has gotten Florida football where it is? Arguably SEC baseball is tougher than SEC football. Consistantly making the SRs should be enough for a coach to be safe.

 

[Islandbird]

Here is the thing, Kingston is never going to take us back to our glory days.

We won 2 national championships, appeared in the national title game/series 6 times(could be slightly off on that number) and been to the College World Series numerous times(none of which has happened since 2012) So we're a Blueblood in college baseball by that definition. Since 2012 we've been passed by Just about every program in the SEC except LSU who is the only program in the SEC I consider to have more of a history in baseball than we do. I remember they did not hesitate to let Smokey Laval go who was getting to the CWS but was not bringing any championships home. For us College Baseball and now Women's Basketball are two sports where no kind of mediocrity are to be tolerated! There is no excuse for a 12 year CWS drought! We're talking as if Super Regionals are acceptable, for a program like ours, that should be the floor in the worst of seasons! We should be getting to the CWS every 3 years at least, every senior class of ours should have played for the national title at least once, and we should at least once a decade put it all together and win it all. We need a coach that can get us to Omaha and win it all, not someone who merely makes the tournament with an occasional Super Regional. Championships in your best years and CWS appearances in your average years is what being a Blueblood in baseball is all about. That is what our standard is. If Ray Tanner(who should understand this better than anyone) is rationalizing in any way based off of SR appearances that Kingston is getting the job done than he is cheating the program and standard he helped create. Eric Hyman and/or Mike McGee would've fired Mark Kingston long ago!

Name one active D1 coach who played in Omaha at least every 3 years out of the past 12 years so we can go after him.

 

[Blues man]

So the Sweet Sixteen is good enough in basketball but not baseball. Interesting take.

Check back with me when the SEC regularly gets in 10 or 11 of it's 14 teams into the NCAA basketball tournament. Then I can let you know where my expectations would be based on difficulty of accomplishments

 

[Rogue Cock]

Check back with me when the SEC regularly gets in 10 or 11 of it's 14 teams into the NCAA basketball tournament. Then I can let you know where my expectations would be based on difficulty of accomplishments

In both RPI is a huge consideration....so it levels out the difficulty of schedule.

 

[Blues man]

In both RPI is a huge consideration....so it levels out the difficulty of schedule.

Being able to get in with a losing record is far easier wouldn't you think?

 

[Rogue Cock]

Being able to get in with a losing record is far easier wouldn't you think?

Who you play makes a difference.....we played more Quad 1 games than anyone else. The more diffiicult the schedule, the better chance you have to lose. RPI takes that into account. If we played in the Big 12 we'd probably have won a lot more games....would that make you happy?

 

[Blues man]

Who you play makes a difference.....we played more Quad 1 games than anyone else. The more diffiicult the schedule, the better chance you have to lose. RPI takes that into account. If we played in the Big 12 we'd probably have won a lot more games....would that make you happy?

I guess I could be happy in the Big 12. But I'd rather us do what it takes to win where we are at. I get no comfort in saying it's ok to lose because we play good teams.

 

[Rogue Cock]

I guess I could be happy in the Big 12. But I'd rather us do what it takes to win where we are at. I get no comfort in saying it's ok to lose because we play good teams.

No one does. I go into every game thinking that we will win it.....as unlikely as that may be. I understand and have more patience in baseball than any other sport, mainly because it was my sport and played it for many years. You begin to realize you are going to have good hops, bad hops, good days, bad days....and the baseball gods can be cruel and benevolent.

 

[BftCocks09]

So the Sweet Sixteen is good enough in basketball but not baseball. Interesting take.

Truth be told it depends on the perceived caliber of the program in my opinion. I do not believe Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, etc. would be satisfied with consistent Sweet Sixteens. Our basketball program has never been a blueblood and most likely never will be so a Sweet Sixteen on a regular basis is a great accomplishment. We were once a blueblood in college baseball and once you’ve reached that there’s no going back. So yes, for us a Sweet Sixteen in basketball on a semi-regular basis is more than acceptable, for our once proud baseball program it is not.

 

[18IsTheMan]

So the Sweet Sixteen is good enough in basketball but not baseball. Interesting take.

Define “basketball”. A Sweet 16 as the ceiling in WBB would not be acceptable given where we are now.

 

[Rogue Cock]

Truth be told it depends on the perceived caliber of the program in my opinion. I do not believe Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, etc. would be satisfied with consistent Sweet Sixteens. Our basketball program has never been a blueblood and most likely never will be so a Sweet Sixteen on a regular basis is a great accomplishment. We were once a blueblood in college baseball and once you’ve reached that there’s no going back. So yes, for us a Sweet Sixteen in basketball on a semi-regular basis is more than acceptable, for our once proud baseball program it is not.

Ummm, we don't have the baseball credentials that Kentucky, Duke, nor Kansas have in basketball. They are the bluest of the blue bloods.

 

[Rogue Cock]

Define “basketball”. A Sweet 16 as the ceiling in WBB would not be acceptable given where we are now.

And we will face this issue again when Staley retires. We hired two legends and probably to future HOF members in two sports....and were/are lucky to have them. They don't grow on trees and it is difficult to replace them. Forida is finding out that the hard way in football.

 

[will110]

Isn't that the kind of attitude that has gotten Florida football where it is? Arguably SEC baseball is tougher than SEC football. Consistantly making the SRs should be enough for a coach to be safe.

It's not the same, though, because you're getting nowhere near the postseason with an under .500 record in conference play in football. Looking at the program as a whole, I just don't see a very positive trajectory for Kingston. It's a two steps forward, one step back, one step forward, two steps back situation where the only consistency has been mediocrity.

Perhaps you're right, and Kingston's replacement ends up even worse than mediocre. To me, that's a risk that has to be taken in order to get the program back to where it needs to be as a national contender.

 

[Rogue Cock]

It's not the same, though, because you're getting nowhere near the postseason with an under .500 record in conference play in football. Looking at the program as a whole, I just don't see a very positive trajectory for Kingston. It's a two steps forward, one step back, one step forward, two steps back situation where the only consistency has been mediocrity.

Perhaps you're right, and Kingston's replacement ends up even worse than mediocre. To me, that's a risk that has to be taken in order to get the program back to where it needs to be as a national contender.

We've had a postseason bowl games where we had a losing conference record, in fact quite a few: 2006, 2009, 2014, 2106 and 2021....and two where we had .500 conference records.

 

[18IsTheMan]

And we will face this issue again when Staley retires. We hired two legends and probably to future HOF members in two sports....and were/are lucky to have them. They don't grow on trees and it is difficult to replace them. Forida is finding out that the hard way in football.

And your position is that we should adjust expectations from being the dominant program in WBB to being satisfied with losing conference records.

 

[Rogue Cock]

And your position is that we should adjust expectations from being the dominant program in WBB to being satisfied with losing conference records.

Honestly, I think the situation may force to.....that remains to be seen. Fortunately, there don't seem to be as many top tier WBB programs as men's baseball. But that appears to be changing....especially in the SEC. I've held since the end of last year that Kingston needed to make a SR this year to keep his job.....and i am waiting until the season plays out. I am sure Florida didn't expect what they've gone through after Urban. Same with Texas. Definitely could happen with Bama.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Well, one thing’s for sure: I’ve never known a fan base so averse to success as ours. We genuinely can’t stand it. But, that’s why we’re USC

 

[will110]

We've had a postseason bowl games where we had a losing conference record, in fact quite a few: 2006, 2009, 2014, 2106 and 2021....and two where we had .500 conference records.

Of course. I was referring to playing in the championship tournament, which is not equivalent to a bowl game.

 

[will110]

Honestly, I think the situation may force to.....that remains to be seen. Fortunately, there don't seem to be as many top tier WBB programs as men's baseball. But that appears to be changing....especially in the SEC. I've held since the end of last year that Kingston needed to make a SR this year to keep his job.....and i am waiting until the season plays out. I am sure Florida didn't expect what they've gone through after Urban. Same with Texas. Definitely could happen with Bama.

It's reasonable to adjust expectations as circumstances change, but I'm with @18IsTheMan here. Adjusting expectations from a national title contender to being ok with losing conference records as long as we make the postseason seems too much.

Tennessee baseball is proving winning at a high level is still possible in a really difficult conference, and they don't have near the baseball tradition we do.

 

[18IsTheMan]

It's reasonable to adjust expectations as circumstances change, but I'm with @18IsTheMan here. Adjusting expectations from a national title contender to being ok with losing conference records as long as we make the postseason seems too much.

Tennessee baseball is proving winning at a high level is still possible in a really difficult conference, and they don't have near the baseball tradition we do.

Yes. We certainly all understand that the expectation cannot be making it to Omaha every single season. You aren’t going to dominate every season. But with our program’s relatively recent history, I don’t think it’s too much to expect that we should at least be in contention for making it to Omaha most seasons. As it is, there is nobody who thinks Kingston can ever get us there but some are fine with that so long as he makes the supers every now and again.

Seriously, dude is under .500 through 6 seasons of SEC play. How is that ok?

 

[Blues man]

It's reasonable to adjust expectations as circumstances change, but I'm with @18IsTheMan here. Adjusting expectations from a national title contender to being ok with losing conference records as long as we make the postseason seems too much.

Tennessee baseball is proving winning at a high level is still possible in a really difficult conference, and they don't have near the baseball tradition we do.

Tenn and UK baseball is proving with the right coaching they can improve each year as they expand what they can do well to all aspects of the game. That is a sign of direction. That is what I have always wanted to see Kingston do. Hasn't happened and here we are after year seven looking as ugly as we do sometimes. Coaching coaching coaching.

 

[BftCocks09]

Ummm, we don't have the baseball credentials that Kentucky, Duke, nor Kansas have in basketball. They are the bluest of the blue bloods.

That’s a straw man argument.

 

[PrestonyteParrot]

Tenn and UK baseball is proving with the right coaching they can improve each year as they expand what they can do well to all aspects of the game. That is a sign of direction. That is what I have always wanted to see Kingston do. Hasn't happened and here we are after year seven looking as ugly as we do sometimes. Coaching coaching coaching.

Study the analytics, throw players on the field and see what sticks, that is Kingston's idea of coaching.
Sacrificing defense for offense in the line-up was one of those ''analytical coaching '' moves which bit us in the butt big time.
Getting in an offensive slugfest with a poor defensive team prone to give up ''free runs'' against the best offensive teams in the league was not a wise move

 

[will110]

Isn't that the kind of attitude that has gotten Florida football where it is? Arguably SEC baseball is tougher than SEC football. Consistantly making the SRs should be enough for a coach to be safe.

I got thinking more about your Florida comparison. The more I consider it, the less I think it's relevant to South Carolina baseball. Take a look at Gator coaches:

Will Muschamp - 4 years - 7-6, 11-2, 4-8, 6-5 - fired before the end of year 4
Jim McElwain - 3 years - 10-4. 9-4, 3-4 - fired before the end of year 3
Dan Mullen - 4 years - 10-3, 11-2, 8-4, 5-6 - fired before the end of year 4
Billy Napier - 2 years - 6-7, 5-7

Mark Kingston is at the end of his 7th year here. He's had plenty of time to build the program and return it to the upper echelon of the SEC; so far he's been unable to do so. His SEC East finishes: 3rd, 5th, 4th, 5th, 3rd, 5th. That's just not good enough. Do you have any confidence that he's going to get things better than that? Carolina has been extremely patient and given Kingston plenty of time.

Florida football fired coaches at the first sign of trouble and didn't even let anyone finish out a season. That's pretty much the opposite of what Carolina's done with Kingston.

 

[ScWildthing61]

I got thinking more about your Florida comparison. The more I consider it, the less I think it's relevant to South Carolina baseball. Take a look at Gator coaches:

Will Muschamp - 4 years - 7-6, 11-2, 4-8, 6-5 - fired before the end of year 4
Jim McElwain - 3 years - 10-4. 9-4, 3-4 - fired before the end of year 3
Dan Mullen - 4 years - 10-3, 11-2, 8-4, 5-6 - fired before the end of year 4
Billy Napier - 2 years - 6-7, 5-7

Mark Kingston is at the end of his 7th year here. He's had plenty of time to build the program and return it to the upper echelon of the SEC; so far he's been unable to do so. His SEC East finishes: 3rd, 5th, 4th, 5th, 3rd, 5th. That's just not good enough. Do you have any confidence that he's going to get things better than that? Carolina has been extremely patient and given Kingston plenty of time.

Florida football fired coaches at the first sign of trouble and didn't even let anyone finish out a season. That's pretty much the opposite of what Carolina's done with Kingston.

This! We've been wayyyyy too patient, and our baseball program has suffered for it, and this"well it's good enough" attitude will end up driving our baseball program into the same irrelevancy that our men's basketball program fell into in the years after Frank McGuire retired, and continues to be mired in to this day. I said it in an earlier post the only SEC program I consider to have more tradition in baseball than we do is LSU. I assure you Kingston would never have lasted 7 mediocre CWSless seasons in Baton Rouge. To be honest they never would've hired him in the first place.

 

[18IsTheMan]

This! We've been wayyyyy too patient, and our baseball program has suffered for it, and this"well it's good enough" attitude will end up driving our baseball program into the same irrelevancy that our men's basketball program fell into in the years after Frank McGuire retired, and continues to be mired in to this day. I said it in an earlier post the only SEC program I consider to have more tradition in baseball than we do is LSU. I assure you Kingston would never have lasted 7 mediocre CWSless seasons in Baton Rouge. To be honest they never would've hired him in the first place.

Win percentages for our last 3 baseball coaches (overall/SEC):

Tanner: .700/.602
Holbrook: .654/.547
Kingston: .595/.464

The drive to irrelevancy has already begun and has been greatly accelerated under Kingston. There was a decline under Holbrook, but things have fallen off the cliff under Kingston.

I don't see how anyone accepts those numbers, even if we make the Supers this year. We are flat-out mediocre overall and less-than-mediocre in the SEC under Kingston. Making the Supers this year does nothing to change that.

 

[will110]

This! We've been wayyyyy too patient, and our baseball program has suffered for it, and this"well it's good enough" attitude will end up driving our baseball program into the same irrelevancy that our men's basketball program fell into in the years after Frank McGuire retired, and continues to be mired in to this day. I said it in an earlier post the only SEC program I consider to have more tradition in baseball than we do is LSU. I assure you Kingston would never have lasted 7 mediocre CWSless seasons in Baton Rouge. To be honest they never would've hired him in the first place.

I don't think we need to turn into Florida, but it seems like we could have a happy medium where once a guy's had a fair chance to build the program, evaluate and make changes if things aren't good enough.

 

[Gamecock Jacque]

the only SEC program I consider to have more tradition in baseball than we do is LSU.

Look up Texas. See what you find.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Look up Texas.

Well, they aren't in the SEC for another month.

 

[Gamecock Jacque]

Well, they aren't in the SEC for another month.

I'm not going to quibble.

 

[Rogue Cock]

That’s a straw man argument.

He brought up those schools, I didn’t.

 

[Gamecock Jacque]

Well, they aren't in the SEC for another month.

In a month we'll be welcoming the New York Yankees of college baseball to the SEC.

 

[Rogue Cock]

I got thinking more about your Florida comparison. The more I consider it, the less I think it's relevant to South Carolina baseball. Take a look at Gator coaches:

Will Muschamp - 4 years - 7-6, 11-2, 4-8, 6-5 - fired before the end of year 4
Jim McElwain - 3 years - 10-4. 9-4, 3-4 - fired before the end of year 3
Dan Mullen - 4 years - 10-3, 11-2, 8-4, 5-6 - fired before the end of year 4
Billy Napier - 2 years - 6-7, 5-7

Mark Kingston is at the end of his 7th year here. He's had plenty of time to build the program and return it to the upper echelon of the SEC; so far he's been unable to do so. His SEC East finishes: 3rd, 5th, 4th, 5th, 3rd, 5th. That's just not good enough. Do you have any confidence that he's going to get things better than that? Carolina has been extremely patient and given Kingston plenty of time.

Florida football fired coaches at the first sign of trouble and didn't even let anyone finish out a season. That's pretty much the opposite of what Carolina's done with Kingston.

Has it got them where they wanted to be?

 

[PrestonyteParrot]

I don't think we need to turn into Florida, but it seems like we could have a happy medium where once a guy's had a fair chance to build the program, evaluate and make changes if things aren't good enough.

You wonder if O'Sullivan is having any 2nd thoughts about his decision to stay at Florida with the season they have had there.
He could have had the keys here and been wide open with building the program back.
Just wish we had made a move then and were on the other side.

 

[will110]

Has it got them where they wanted to be?

Nope, and neither has almost 7 full seasons of Mark Kingston gotten South Carolina baseball where it needs to be either. I think there's a happy medium here.

Obviously some of this conversation is premature depending on just what happens the next week or two on the diamond. But should things continue how they're expected to play out, 7 full seasons of sub .500 SEC ball and no Omaha doesn't seem like good enough baseball for South Carolina.

I'd be much less inclined to say "Omaha or bust" if the team performed consistently in the regular season over the course of Kingston's tenure as one of the top teams in the SEC.

 

[Rogue Cock]

Nope, and neither has almost 7 full seasons of Mark Kingston gotten South Carolina baseball where it needs to be either. I think there's a happy medium here.

Obviously some of this conversation is premature depending on just what happens the next week or two on the diamond. But should things continue how they're expected to play out, 7 full seasons of sub .500 SEC ball and no Omaha doesn't seem like good enough baseball for South Carolina.

I'd be much less inclined to say "Omaha or bust" if the team performed consistently in the regular season over the course of Kingston's tenure as one of the top teams in the SEC.

I wanted him fired 2 years ago but circumstances prevented it. Last year he made the SR which got him another year with a reduced buyout after May 31. If he makes another SR this year, that will show some progress, not ideal mind you, but still progress and he will probably get another year if he wants it. If he doesn’t make the SRs, fire him…that I’m fine with.

 

[18IsTheMan]

I wanted him fired 2 years ago but circumstances prevented it. Last year he made the SR which got him another year with a reduced buyout after May 31. If he makes another SR this year, that will show some progress, not ideal mind you, but still progress and he will probably get another year if he wants it. If he doesn’t make the SRs, fire him…that I’m fine with.

win percentages (overall/SEC):

2023: .667/.552
2024: .610/.433

Even if we make the Supers, how can one argue that's progress?