So the MS Dept of Wildlife, Fisheries & Parks is too burdened by..

[Xenomorph]

...some of our state parks and is moving to turn them over to private companies?

I drive through John Kyle every so often and the camping areas around the dam are in pitiful shape.

But turning the parks into for-profit entities? Somebody care to explain the logic there?

 

[msubrave]

Privatize and profit. Somebody's brother in law is gonna make some coin.

 

[PBRME]

View attachment 23513

 

[Indognito]

In the 1950s and 1960s and perhaps a little later, the MS State Park Commission contracted with private individuals for rights to sell all concessions (food and drinks, etc.) in the state parks. The Park Commission took no risk and got a percentage. I believe I recall the percentage was based on gross sales not on profits.

Both parties made money under the arrangement. The parks with group camping facilities kept their cabins filled with county 4H clubs, church groups, etc. who used the parks for their summer camps. Many of the groups which booked summer camps were from neighboring states, Alabama in particular. I'm sure all that has changed but I expect the business model would still work for a cash strapped bureaucracy.

 

[The Maroon Pug]

People will pay for good amenities rather than have free POS amenities/conditions.

 

[T-TownDawgg]

Teddy Roosevelt is rightfully coiling his fists at this. He reserved more land and funding for it’s care for national parks than anyone else, simply because he felt the beauty and tranquility of nature probably saved his life. He wanted that preserved for the rest of us.

Billboards and concessions comming soon to a MS state park near you!

Bad idea.

 

[Uncle Ruckus]

Not if it's done right. Our parks suck ***. On the other hand, we could hire someone who is in charge that is actually worth a **** and prioritize funds for our parks. But, if we do that, what would you want to take our current funds away from to improve our parks? Infrastructure? Schools? Tax increase? I'll take it being ran by a business if it means our parks will improve and it's not done by allowing something else to suffer.

 

[aTotal360]

He probably couldn't envision the amount of misappropriated funds and laziness in future generations.

 

[dickiedawg]

Not sure how similar or different it is, but Starkville is turning over its Parks department to a private entity as well.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

The state legislature dropped the ball.

Rep. Bill Kinkade, a Byhalia Republican who leads the Wildlife, Fisheries, and Parks Committee, acknowledged state leaders have let the parks system deteriorate in recent years. Parks funding over the past two decades was slashed nearly 60% as the Legislature focused limited dollars elsewhere. But Kinkade said priorities are changing.

The above quote is from a Daily Journal last year: Link.

 

[Bill Shankly]

Well, all of the concessions in the national parks are run by private companies.

 

[jb1020]

I'm all for it. Our parks are no good

I spent 2 night at Oak Mt State Park in Pelham this summer. Absolutely packed with people. Everything was nice, clean, plenty to do....its just not like that here.

 

[archdog]

Teddy Roosevelt is rightfully coiling his fists at this. He reserved more land and funding for it’s care for national parks than anyone else, simply because he felt the beauty and tranquility of nature probably saved his life. He wanted that preserved for the rest of us.

Billboards and concessions comming soon to a MS state park near you!

Bad idea.

Agreed. Fund them properly. Set quality standards, make it happen.

 

[johnson86-1]

...some of our state parks and is moving to turn them over to private companies?

I drive through John Kyle every so often and the camping areas around the dam are in pitiful shape.

But turning the parks into for-profit entities? Somebody care to explain the logic there?

You get much nicer parks if you turn them into profit centers rather than a drain on the state budget. That's pretty much all there is to it.

This guy has a business that manages public parks, and he will have some blog posts on why it makes sense and what people misunderstand about the process. That's obviously self interested commentary but it seems pretty evenhanded.
https://coyoteblog.com/ He links to this from his site: http://www.parkppp.com/ Not sure if that is his site or a trade group.

One big thing that privatization gets you is you don't have to put a PERS load on every full time employee, so it's much cheaper. And I think it's easier for private companies to utilize part time and seasonal labor. In fact, I think he has said on his blog that the majority of his workforce is part time retirees. They get to enjoy being around people and go where the weather is nice and supplement their income while essentially living in a park they would want to visit anyway.

The other thing is that if you give a private company a long enough contract, they can make investments in the park knowing they will manage it for a return and not manage it for political concerns. And they can just make investments in the most cost effective way. Since it's their money, they don't have to promise to figure out a way to give the work to whatever legislators son-in-law in order to get funding.

We've got several state parks that are limping around that have pretty good assets. Hugh White, Enid, Sardis, and Bucaneer state park all have pretty good set ups and I think Buccaneer is the only one that turns a profit for the state. Don't know what kind of shape it's in now, but Hugh White used to have a really good golf course. Not as good as it should have been, but a really good set up that would be very desirable if they kept it up. May not be a populous enough area to put the money into maintaining it, but if there were nicer cabins, that would be a pretty decent weekend trip for people. But you'd have to get over the political problem of charging a nice green fee for a nice course.

 

[thatsbaseball]

If we're so tight on funds that we can't properly fund our state parks now, what's it going to be like when we cut 2 bil out of the budget by doing away with state income tax ?

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I'd love to see some accounting for casina and lottery tax receipts. It seems impossible that those funds aren't being siphoned off by politicians either directly, or through awards and kickbacks.

 

[stateu1]

I've seen it not work at Mallard Pointe golf course.

 

[WilCoDawg]

John Stossel did a great story of how private companies can improve parks and do better than the government. Watch this and be informed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxEwjzFA2GA

 

[Smoked Toag]

I spent 2 night at Oak Mt State Park in Pelham this summer. Absolutely packed with people. Everything was nice, clean, plenty to do....its just not like that here.

They threatened to slash the parks budget over there a few years ago, to put in the general budget. I can't remember the exact scenario, but the public erupted, because Alabama has a big enough group that goes to the parks regularly. I don't think that's the case in Mississippi, though I wish it was. Most people here seem to want to stay on their own land.

 

[Pars]

I’m all for it. If it means just basic up keep of trails it’s a win.

 

[mdm3045]

There is absolutely nothing that our government does better than private industry- mail delivery, R&D, roads/bridges maintenance, healthcare, etc. Private industry running the parks will be a dramatic improvement (actually won’t take much to improve upon the current state). Let private industry run it like a business for a while and watch and see the improvement.

 

[Smoked Toag]

They don't even man the gates anymore, so Lord knows how much money is being pissed away by people who just don't pay. Boat fees, etc. I think this is a pure funding issue, rather than the need to privatize. Too many people in leadership positions just don't care, because they spend all their time in private country clubs, hunting private land, and in their own enclaves.

But either way, they need to do something. I think we all agree on that. If they privatize, they'll surely get more expensive.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

This reminds me a lot of your thought earlier this week about Mississippi needing attractive areas to keep people from leaving the state.

 

[Smoked Toag]

There is absolutely nothing that our government does better than private industry- mail delivery, R&D, roads/bridges maintenance, healthcare, etc. Private industry running the parks will be a dramatic improvement (actually won’t take much to improve upon the current state). Let private industry run it like a business for a while and watch and see the improvement.

Not everything should be done with a profit in mind. That's the difference.

 

[mstateglfr]

Time for a question from the evil outsider.

What is the budget for state parks like in MS? What is it compared to 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and 40 years ago? It could be compared as a % of the total state budget.
If the budget is lower, then was it inflated before or is it too slim now?
MaroonEagle's post may shed a bit of light and is worth repeating...

Rep. Bill Kinkade, a Byhalia Republican who leads the Wildlife, Fisheries, and Parks Committee, acknowledged state leaders have let the parks system deteriorate in recent years. Parks funding over the past two decades was slashed nearly 60% as the Legislature focused limited dollars elsewhere. But Kinkade said priorities are changing.

At first glance, it seems difficult to slash a budget by 60% over 20 years and expect quality results.



When budgets are slashed, expecting quality results seems like a blood from a turnip situation.

 

[T-TownDawgg]

Ruckus, you make good points, and I agree with you on the superiority of private sector over public.

It just concerns me about the slippery slope this may become. What will be the fate of our beloved public parks when they are viewed as either a bargaining chip or a hot potato amongst the filthy rich?

 

[BrunswickDawg]

You get much nicer parks if you turn them into profit centers rather than a drain on the state budget. That's pretty much all there is to it.

This guy has a business that manages public parks, and he will have some blog posts on why it makes sense and what people misunderstand about the process. That's obviously self interested commentary but it seems pretty evenhanded.
https://coyoteblog.com/ He links to this from his site: http://www.parkppp.com/ Not sure if that is his site or a trade group.

One big thing that privatization gets you is you don't have to put a PERS load on every full time employee, so it's much cheaper. And I think it's easier for private companies to utilize part time and seasonal labor. In fact, I think he has said on his blog that the majority of his workforce is part time retirees. They get to enjoy being around people and go where the weather is nice and supplement their income while essentially living in a park they would want to visit anyway.

The other thing is that if you give a private company a long enough contract, they can make investments in the park knowing they will manage it for a return and not manage it for political concerns. And they can just make investments in the most cost effective way. Since it's their money, they don't have to promise to figure out a way to give the work to whatever legislators son-in-law in order to get funding.

We've got several state parks that are limping around that have pretty good assets. Hugh White, Enid, Sardis, and Bucaneer state park all have pretty good set ups and I think Buccaneer is the only one that turns a profit for the state. Don't know what kind of shape it's in now, but Hugh White used to have a really good golf course. Not as good as it should have been, but a really good set up that would be very desirable if they kept it up. May not be a populous enough area to put the money into maintaining it, but if there were nicer cabins, that would be a pretty decent weekend trip for people. But you'd have to get over the political problem of charging a nice green fee for a nice course.

Georgia has done a pretty good job with park privatization and operational consolidation over the past 25 years. The best thing they have done is that they use multiple operational models that fit the particular park/site and area.
A great tool GA uses are Park Authorities. They essentially create a self-sustaining state agency that is given development powers and contracting abilities similar to the private sector. Those Authorities then privatize the operations and amenities that make sense, and use profits to maintain loss leaders. Stone Mountain and Jekyll Island are the 2 most known state parks that run this way. In North Georgia, all the parks with lodges are operated by the North Georgia Mountains Authority. They also partner the NGMA to provide maintenance and support for some of the smaller, nearby state historic sites to keep costs and overhead low for those locations. GA has also loaned a number of sites back to local governments, or let them be run by local non-profits

 

[Smoked Toag]

This reminds me a lot of your thought earlier this week about Mississippi needing attractive areas to keep people from leaving the state.

Yeah. And I also started a thread about hiking a few weeks ago, and biggest 'theme' of that thread, to me, was frustration over the lack of areas to do that in this state. And I'm not talking about mountain trails, I mean we all know where the mountains are. But there should be way more of that here, even if it's flatter. If we could get a core group together, maybe things could get done. But most Mississippians are more worried about DEHRR HUNTIN.

 

[Shmuley]

I think government does fairly well with "promoting the common defense" and "securing the blessings of liberty." But, for matters beyond military superiority, your point stands.

 

[ColoradoDawg]

The Great River Road State Park in Rosedale got sold to private hunters. That was a very special place growing up and it was very disappointing to find out it doesn’t exist anymore. There was a lookout tower that was the tallest structure in the county and you could walk out on the sandbar to the river. Spent so many great times there as a kid and adolescent. To be fair, though, it constantly flooded because it was next the river making it very difficult to maintain. Oh well, maybe, being privatized can help the situation, maybe it’s a cash grab from some good ole boys, guess we will see.

 

[dudehead]

...some of our state parks and is moving to turn them over to private companies?

I drive through John Kyle every so often and the camping areas around the dam are in pitiful shape.

But turning the parks into for-profit entities? Somebody care to explain the logic there?

This is the plan, another step in Friedman's "Starve the Beast" policy on how you reduce the size of government that was begun in the early 1980s: you kill it by starving it. Then you sell off the pieces (privatization). This is a feature of the plan, not a bug.

 

[The Peeper]

I'm all for it. Alabama has an $80 million bond issue proposed for improvements and part of it is contracting out management and the rest is using "corporate partners". TN did it, they have vendors doing restaurants, snack bars, equestrian, canoes/kayaks, reservations, etc. I watched a video recently about AR doing it, they have done a 180' turnaround of theirs. Watch the below video and it may change your opinions because as of right now, we suck.

[video]https://www.wlbt.com/2021/10/21/state-our-parks-taking-action/[/video]

Also, MS put the management of the golf courses out for bid years ago so its not like its something totally new either. Randy Watkins company had several of them at one time, not sure he still does or not.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Not many people deer hunt anymore either.

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

...some of our state parks and is moving to turn them over to private companies?

I drive through John Kyle every so often and the camping areas around the dam are in pitiful shape.

But turning the parks into for-profit entities? Somebody care to explain the logic there?

We gotta make 'em pay to play. It's the American Way. Otherwise they can just sit their asses at home.

Privatize the great outdoors! Then we'll get the post offices, public schools, and public libraries. If investors can't get rich off of it, who the 17 needs it?

Am I right? Am I right?

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

They slashed the budget all over the place around the 2008 market crash and many budget items have never been recovered. The parks system is one of those.

 

[FormerlyHighLifeRebel]

So, why aren't there a lot of private parks?

There is absolutely nothing that our government does better than private industry- mail delivery, R&D, roads/bridges maintenance, healthcare, etc. Private industry running the parks will be a dramatic improvement (actually won’t take much to improve upon the current state). Let private industry run it like a business for a while and watch and see the improvement.

Why would you run something that is not meant to make a profit like a thing that is meant to make a profit?

If businesses could do it better, wouldn't there be really good private parks already? What's preventing them?

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

My family reunion has been at Hugh White for 30 plus years. Those cabins have not been updated in that 30 years. Same matress, curtains, stoves that don’t work, ac units that don’t work, etc) Also the hot water hasn’t worked in the bathrooms in the pavilion for at least 3 years(there is a hand made sign on the mirror “no hot water” that has been there the whole time) every employee there is just collecting a check waiting to get their 25 years in. There used to be a nice swimming pool that they filled in because they didn’t want to maintain it. State Parks in Alabama, Tennessee and Arkansas are so much nicer and better run.

 

[johnson86-1]

They don't even man the gates anymore, so Lord knows how much money is being pissed away by people who just don't pay. Boat fees, etc.

They generally don't man the gates because the prices are low enough that they net more on the honor system than they would paying somebody to collect fees.

I think this is a pure funding issue, rather than the need to privatize. Too many people in leadership positions just don't care, because they spend all their time in private country clubs, hunting private land, and in their own enclaves.

But either way, they need to do something. I think we all agree on that. If they privatize, they'll surely get more expensive.

In other states, that hasn't been the case. I think it will be in ours just because the parks are practically free as it is.

I think privatization is probably the right move for Mississippi simply because we have poor governance. We can't get out of our own way and when it's not soft corruption, we just let politics screw it up anyway. The question is how corrupt will our privatization process be. There's really not a lot of wiggle room to make money and make payoffs, so we really need to contract out based on qualifications and not politics/payoffs. If it's on the latter, the parks aren't going to improve, it's just going to put some money in some people's pockets while removing an expense from the budget.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

There is absolutely nothing that our government does better than private industry- mail delivery, R&D, roads/bridges maintenance, healthcare, etc. Private industry running the parks will be a dramatic improvement (actually won’t take much to improve upon the current state). Let private industry run it like a business for a while and watch and see the improvement.

You should go spend some time in our great National Parks, BLM (bureau of land management) lands, and National Forests. On the whole, the Federal Government is a mess, but those 3 groups do a great job. They blend conservation and recreation very well.

Those 3 agencies combined manage about 500 million acres which is almost entirely available to the public for all kinds of uses. They do this with a budget of less than $12 billion combined. That's less than 1/2 of 1% of the federal budget. To put that in scale, we are talking about total lands that are roughly 16 times the size of the state of Mississippi.

There are tons of private campgrounds across America. Very few get close to doing as good a job as the NPS, BLM, and US Forest Service.

 

[Smoked Toag]

Not many people deer hunt anymore either.

I meant any hunting, dude. I thought the caps and misspelling sort of provided the sarcasm hint.

And I don't think you're correct, in Mississippi. I don't have numbers but tons of people are hunting, and hunting all the time. They look forward to the season more than sports.