So the MS Dept of Wildlife, Fisheries & Parks is too burdened by..

[johnson86-1]

There is absolutely nothing that our government does better than private industry- mail delivery, R&D, roads/bridges maintenance, healthcare, etc. Private industry running the parks will be a dramatic improvement (actually won’t take much to improve upon the current state). Let private industry run it like a business for a while and watch and see the improvement.

There are things government does better. I'm not sure private police would do better. The places that are awful I think would be awful with private police also, because the problem is generally voters/residents, and you don't fix that problem by privatizing. I think fire protection would be similar. Probably would do better with private fire protection in non-poor areas because insurance would be a mechanism to align incentives. It's hard to regulate negative externalities privately. Even though most people/companies will do more or less the right thing, it would be harder for them to do so if their weren't consequences for the people/companies who wouldn't.

The parks should be much nicer if they're privatized, but they won't be able to provide park experiences to people of modest means at below cost. Of course, as has been shown, Mississippi's government isn't particularly good at that either. Maybe their can be some programs aimed at providing discounts to those that need it so they can enjoy the parks also.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I think there are. What would you call Yogi Bear, KOA and similar?

 

[johnson86-1]

My family reunion has been at Hugh White for 30 plus years. Those cabins have not been updated in that 30 years. Same matress, curtains, stoves that don’t work, ac units that don’t work, etc) Also the hot water hasn’t worked in the bathrooms in the pavilion for at least 3 years(there is a hand made sign on the mirror “no hot water” that has been there the whole time) every employee there is just collecting a check waiting to get their 25 years in. There used to be a nice swimming pool that they filled in because they didn’t want to maintain it. State Parks in Alabama, Tennessee and Arkansas are so much nicer and better run.

We used to go to Enid and Hugh White probably that long ago. Can't remember which amenities were at which place, but I think Enid was pretty nice back at the time. Swimming pool with a high dive, had mini golf I think?, had basically summer camp type games for kids. Certainly was still rustic, but we thought it was great. We went to Hugh white about ten years ago and the cabins were definitely not as nice as I remembered. Certainly some of it could have just been my expectations changing as an adult, but it also was clearly decades old, so it wasn't just that.

 

[woozman]

I spent 2 night at Oak Mt State Park in Pelham this summer. Absolutely packed with people. Everything was nice, clean, plenty to do....its just not like that here.

Same with Cheaha State Park in Talladega. Super nice facilities…

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

State Parks in Alabama, Tennessee and Arkansas are so much nicer and better run.

I'm sure they are all being run by private companies...

 

[mstateglfr]

View attachment 23516

Since it hasnt been mentioned yet, when/how were many of the state and county parks in MS built up? County and state parks in my current state and also where I grew up were largely built up during the WPA and CCC era.
Public money was spent to employ people and build infrastructure(roads, trails, buildings, docks, paths, etc) in these parks. That lasted for decades, but largely wasnt maintained as well as many would like. Then we look around and say 'I dont want to camp at that ********' because it has failing antiquated infrastructure from 90 years ago.


My town passed a $.01 tax 2 years ago to help fund a bunch of park/recreational opportunities. A pedestrian bridge over a major river to connect two separate parks for walking and riding, a boathouse on a retention lake for renting canoes/kayaks/etc, and a couple other improvements to a few locations in the city. The boathouse is run by a local company and the prices reflect it(compared to the other 2 lakes where you can rent canoes/kayaks and are run by a city or county).
Overall the tax is an obvious win. It increases recreational activities, it improves the quality of what already exists, and it creates convenience.
Point here- you need to pay to improve things. Sub-point- the private company operates at a significantly higher cost(2.5x) than the public run operations. That may be different elsewhere, admittedly.

 

[Smoked Toag]

I think there are. What would you call Yogi Bear, KOA and similar?

And I hate those. I prefer a well-run state park.

But I guess you can have both. Yogi and KOA are generally just campgrounds, not necessarily big huge areas with trails, etc.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Ok, dude.

There are fewer people that deer hunt every year and the ones that do, hunt less frequently each year. Just ask any game warden.

 

[tbaydog]

...some of our state parks and is moving to turn them over to private companies?

I drive through John Kyle every so often and the camping areas around the dam are in pitiful shape.

But turning the parks into for-profit entities? Somebody care to explain the logic there?

US Mail = Fed Ex, UPS

 

[johnson86-1]

Why would you run something that is not meant to make a profit like a thing that is meant to make a profit?

If businesses could do it better, wouldn't there be really good private parks already? What's preventing them?

There are lots of private parks. Tons of campgrounds with small lakes/large ponds. There aren't more because they have to compete with parks that don't need to make a profit. And if we privatize our state parks, it's going to be even harder on those private parks because state parks will still generally just be charging for operations and investments like new cabins and campsites and other amenities. They won't be trying to recover and earn a return on the costs to buy the land to begin with and all the existing amenities.

 

[Smoked Toag]

Point here- you need to pay to improve things. Sub-point- the private company operates at a significantly higher cost(2.5x) than the public run operations. That may be different elsewhere, admittedly.

What cost are you talking about here?

 

[jb1020]

Unfortunatley I dont have land

and living in the Jackson metro area I can assure you I'm much more likely to drive past Lefluers, Roosevelt and Clarkco State parks to get to Oak Mt. I mean, look at all this **** they offer. All the state parks in MS combined don't have half this. SO whatever we need to do to get here I'm all for it.

[FONT=&quot]Mountain biking and hiking are two of the most popular activities at the park. With more than 50 miles of trails visitors have plenty of options to choose from be it a short loop or an overnight trip. The Red Trail has even been included on the International Mountain Biking Association’s(IMBA) list of EPIC rides.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The park also features a pump track and BMX course, Flipside Watersports cable skiing, boat rentals, basketball courts, nature programs, Peavine Falls, Oak Mountain Interpretive Center, an 18-hole golf course and driving range, beach and swimming area, fishing lakes, boat rentals, picnic areas, demonstration farm and horseback riding facilities. Make your plans![/FONT]

 

[Smoked Toag]

and living in the Jackson metro area I can assure you I'm much more likely to drive past Lefluers, Roosevelt and Clarkco State parks to get to Oak Mt. I mean, look at all this **** they offer. All the state parks in MS combined don't have half this. SO whatever we need to do to get here I'm all for it.

Agree completely. Spent tons of time at Oak Mountain.

 

[johnson86-1]

You should go spend some time in our great National Parks, BLM (bureau of land management) lands, and National Forests. On the whole, the Federal Government is a mess, but those 3 groups do a great job. They blend conservation and recreation very well.

Those 3 agencies combined manage about 500 million acres which is almost entirely available to the public for all kinds of uses. They do this with a budget of less than $12 billion combined. That's less than 1/2 of 1% of the federal budget. To put that in scale, we are talking about total lands that are roughly 16 times the size of the state of Mississippi.

There are tons of private campgrounds across America. Very few get close to doing as good a job as the NPS, BLM, and US Forest Service.

The national park system contracts out management for a lot of its parks to different extents. Management is fully contracted out on some, just amenities and/or concessions at others I believe. Certainly not the majority. But lot of them. Don't know what they look at in determining which ones to contract out and which ones to self manage.

 

[johnson86-1]

Ruckus, you make good points, and I agree with you on the superiority of private sector over public.

It just concerns me about the slippery slope this may become. What will be the fate of our beloved public parks when they are viewed as either a bargaining chip or a hot potato amongst the filthy rich?

???? It doesn't matter what amenities you put at Sardis or Grenada, it's not going to be anything to the filthy rich. They are brown water lakes mostly surrounded by nature. That's going to appeal to a lot of people if the right amenities are there (including me), and I'm sure it will appeal to some filthy rich people, but that's going to be the exception.

 

[T-TownDawgg]

You’re missing my point. Let me clarify.

No one is getting filthy rich off park amenities. But if the state gives rights to a private entity for its care, caution should be paid. If the value as a park gets outweighed by potential development or interest in natural resources, that worries me. That’s why the parks were placed under the Interior Department in the first place.

For its own protection, would the parks still operate under the by-laws of the Interior?

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Many cities in Mississippi have the Pennies for Parks tax. It’s usually done as a restaurant tax. I think every city except Hernando has it in Desoto County. Everyone has great parks except Hernando now because heaven forbid we have a 3 cent restaurant tax.

 

[mstateglfr]

What cost are you talking about here?

Yeah that was poorly worded.

To rent a kayak or canoe, it costs 2.5x more at the privately managed boat shed compared to a couple of other rental locations on nearby metro lakes. One of those other rental locations is run by the city and the other is run by the county. This was the case in Sept '20 when we rented some kayaks.

I will add though that the privately managed location had more kayaks to rent. It is a higher used lake so that makes sense, but perhaps part of why it costs more is they have more maintenance/inventory to manage.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

Exactly. It's the same way a private entity would run it. I had a summer job for a contractor at Yellowstone one summer 20+ years ago. No sense in providing federal benefits and career path for a seasonal cafeteria cook. That's part of the reason those lands and parks are so nice, using contractors when appropriate and keeping it in house when necessary.

 

[Smoked Toag]

Yeah that was poorly worded.

To rent a kayak or canoe, it costs 2.5x more at the privately managed boat shed compared to a couple of other rental locations on nearby metro lakes. One of those other rental locations is run by the city and the other is run by the county. This was the case in Sept '20 when we rented some kayaks.

I will add though that the privately managed location had more kayaks to rent. It is a higher used lake so that makes sense, but perhaps part of why it costs more is they have more maintenance/inventory to manage.

I gotcha. I was also running through different scenarios in my mind as to how to truly contract out these things. Just seems to me that something is wrong if the state is not funding some aspect of this thing. If they just want to give it to a private contractor, then that private contractor would be paying the state something, right? So he's got to get some revenue coming in, in order to make his money and pay out his expenses. Doesn't seem reasonable at first, and certainly seems as if that contractor will start cutting expenses at the park real quick-like, and then raising revenue like you say. Unfortunately this will be the route Mississippi will go most likely, because it brings in money, but I don't think it's sustainable for a state park. Or they just go full-on corruption and give it to somebody, and say, "nO cOsT tO tAxPaYuHs" while they just gave away state land rights that taxpayers paid for at some point in the past.

The state is going to have to fund SOMETHING, at some point, whether that's additional staff or a stand-alone bureau to run the parks, or overall management of each one.

I think it's the 'for-profit' deal that is grating me. I don't like that for the parks. I'd rather all the money go into the parks, rather than someone's pocket.

 

[FormerlyHighLifeRebel]

I think there are. What would you call Yogi Bear, KOA and similar?

I would call those campgrounds, not parks. A park is usually much more than just a campground. Most private campgrounds simply profit off of a nearby public park of some sort.

Privatization of public parks sounds a lot like handing over a monopoly to a private company.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I think that either parks are a public service that are worthwhile (and as a service, aren't expected to be profitable) or they are not and we shouldn't have them if we won't fund them to meet some basic expectations. If private industry prices it for profit, it probably marginalizes the current patrons to some extent. I suspect that privatization will just put money in some politically connected friend while the level of service/amenities remains unchanged and the park service can just Pontus Pilate the whole deal.

 

[FormerlyHighLifeRebel]

There are lots of campgrounds. There are no private parks that I am aware of in Mississippi. Like you said, a private company could not possibly afford to purchase the land needed to have a park based on the profit it would turn from the campground.

Private, profit based actors respond to incentives. What incentive will exist for a private company to maintain a park that does not turn a profit? Wouldn't it be in their best interests to cut their losses and move on?

The whole point of a public good is that it provides everyone with the good. It costs money to do that. It's just an expense. It's not meant to turn a profit. It's just meant to be enjoyed. We all agree to pay for it. Decades ago we (the royal we) made a decision to make public goods like parks. If we don't want to do that anymore, then that's fine. Shut em down. Sell the land. Don't pull some half-*** ********.

What it sounds like we are talking about here is the government picking who will get the monopoly to make a profit off of what will remain a public good. If that's the case, then what incentive does the monopoly have to do a good job?

 

[FormerlyHighLifeRebel]

I think that either parks are a public service that are worthwhile (and as a service, aren't expected to be profitable) or they are not and we shouldn't have them if we won't fund them to meet some basic expectations. If private industry prices it for profit, it probably marginalizes the current patrons to some extent. I suspect that privatization will just put money in some politically connected friend while the level of service/amenities remains unchanged and the park service can just Pontus Pilate the whole deal.

I am trying to stay away from that argument because it's just speculation, but we all know that's what is about to happen.

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

Why do you hate America?

somebody needs to be making money somewhere. Let the people who know how to make it handle it.

You just can't give opportunities for people to enjoy nature as part of some sort of shared economic agreement. That's communism.

 

[Smoked Toag]

I am trying to stay away from that argument because it's just speculation, but we all know that's what is about to happen.

Agreed.

 

[FreeDawg]

From a purely fishing standpoint, our parks are solid. In the Jackson metro you have access to a bunch of state public fishing lakes within an hour and a half. I’ve fished most of them. Most have on-site game wardens on site to mange and they’ve all been really nice. Now as far as cabins, lodging, family activities, etc… I think they’re lacking in a big way. The only one I really hear about families utilizing is **********.

 

[Smoked Toag]

Why do you hate America?

somebody needs to be making money somewhere. Let the people who know how to make it handle it.

You just can't give opportunities for people to enjoy nature as part of some sort of shared economic agreement. That's communism.

Actually, that's 100% what we are supposed to be doing. Just like schools and roads.

 

[047Dog]

If we're so tight on funds that we can't properly fund our state parks now, what's it going to be like when we cut 2 bil out of the budget by doing away with state income tax ?

I'm curious about that as well.

The state was conveniently in a "recession" for nearly 10 years where parks were allowed to rot, state workers and teachers essentially took pay cuts due to rising insurance costs and no raises. Now, while we have collected hundreds of millions in excess revenue, you don't hear a peep from the Legislature about how they will spend that money to IMPROVE the state, it's work force, or anything else.

We have BUMS in the Capitol and they continue to sink the state.

 

[jb1020]

You have a boat? I've fished a handful that past few years and have had very little luck.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

Ok, dude.

There are fewer people that deer hunt every year and the ones that do, hunt less frequently each year. Just ask any game warden.

Thanks hunting clubs!

 

[turkish]

Just for the sake of data, MDWFP has purchased somewhere in the neighborhood of $60 million of property is the last 10 years, with Canemount and Phil Bryant WMA. Now, they say those funds are from a dedicated account.

This is all a very nuanced issue. I couldn’t do a good job defending the merits of any viewpoint. It probably boils down to poor job performance of our elected officials, that this is a problem to even debate.

 

[Smoked Toag]

I'm curious about that as well.

The state was conveniently in a "recession" for nearly 10 years where parks were allowed to rot, state workers and teachers essentially took pay cuts due to rising insurance costs and no raises. Now, while we have collected hundreds of millions in excess revenue, you don't hear a peep from the Legislature about how they will spend that money to IMPROVE the state, it's work force, or anything else.

We have BUMS in the Capitol and they continue to sink the state.

That's what ultra-conservatives want. CuT tAxEs!!!! CUT CUT CUT!!!! NoBoDy Is ImPoRtAnT bUt Me!!!!! Ask L4 Shankass.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Accurate!

 

[johnson86-1]

Accurate!

What do you mean by this? Just hunting clubs locking down land and then not hunting it?

I certainly see that with rich people locking down land and then having to ask people to go hunt it just to manage it a little bit. From people I know in hunting clubs, they seem to get hunted plenty. Of course, maybe the people in hunting clubs that don't hunt them just don't talk about it because it's not a big deal.

One thing I could see is that leisure time is now, and has been for a while, essentially inversely related to income. So you have a lot of people making enough money to hunt that don't have time, and a lot of people with time that don't necessarily have a lot of money to put into it.

Also I'm curious how much hunting has been displaced by travel sports.

 

[Cooterpoot]

If only there was a way the state could make more money. Like taxing medicinals. 17 you Tator!

 

[aTotal360]

Didn't they buy a chunk of property not too long ago after they said blue tongue ravaged it? I vaguely remembers some story that sounded shady.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Why would you run something that is not meant to make a profit like a thing that is meant to make a profit?

If businesses could do it better, wouldn't there be really good private parks already? What's preventing them?

Snow and mountains in Mississippi for one thing.

The second thing: You've got RSA having the Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail in Alabama so maybe something similar but obviously not the same because there'd be a glut.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

It certainly has changed some because people’s lifestyle changes like travel ball and sports etc but I know so much land that is locked down now by people with big money just because they want it and then it doesn’t get hunted much. I took my neighbor deer hunting the other day and he was talking about wanting to find a deer lease for him and his brother and their kids but it was either unavailable or really expensive (and he’s not hurting for money so he’s not being cheap).

 

[johnson86-1]

You’re missing my point. Let me clarify.

No one is getting filthy rich off park amenities. But if the state gives rights to a private entity for its care, caution should be paid. If the value as a park gets outweighed by potential development or interest in natural resources, that worries me. That’s why the parks were placed under the Interior Department in the first place.

For its own protection, would the parks still operate under the by-laws of the Interior?

As far as I know, the most expansive contracts are still just operating/management contracts. They don't get free run of the park and have to get capital improvements approved. They're not going to turn the hiking trails into water slides or clear land to invest in condo development or anything. The most significant thing they will generally do is add amenities like cabins, or maybe a pool or clubhouse or something, but those only going to happen if they have a reasonably long contract to make the headache worth it and/or a guarantee that the government will pay them for the remaining book value or whatever metric for unrecovered investment they use. Most of the time they are going to agree to come in and take care of deferred maintenance, maybe upgrade some primitive campsites with amenities like running water or electric.