So the ms senate wants to close 3 of 8 public universities

[GloryDawg]

Close the W campus and let them use Miss State campus. Close Alcorn campus and let them share Hinds Raymond Campus. Close Valley campus and let them use Delta State. Let's be honest out of all of them JSU has the most dangerous campus. Just getting on and off that campus is a risky proposition every time. It probably needs to be closed.

 

[mstateglfr]

If DSU closes, whoever absorbs all the DSU records damn well better also absorb their mascot and keep the tradition going.
There are few things that are truly great in this world, and the Violent Vegetable is one.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I think its politcally possible to shut down two small HBC’s and/or the W as long as you balance it out by shutting down the state’s oldest and most prominent HWC.

Let’s move forward with that option.

Save The Valley. Close Ole Miss.

Old ideas never die.

 

[vhdawg]

Not trying to hijack but what will come of this ?

Seems to me like you are explicitly trying to hijack.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Seems to me like you are explicitly trying to hijack.

Yeah. He is.

That said, I’m trying to remember what the legislature did in 2016– the previous time the Mississippi Guv was a 1st year Lame Duck.

 

[dog99walker]

Make the W and Alcorn satellite campuses of MSU (Alcorn is a land grant college with the same mission as MSU; Jackson St. Is not.) Move to combine Delta State and Valley into one University. Simple as that. We all know that, but politics and segregation created all this mess, and closing an HBCU is a political firestorm of the highest order.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Why would we close anything? If the answer is anything other than, "This is good for Mississippi State", then you are an idiot. Because at least there's a self-serving mechanism there that makes sense for all of us.

- The schools are providing jobs inside the state of Mississippi, same with school systems;
- Even if we did save some money by muh cOnSoLiDaTiOn, tell me, where would that money be spent? We would never achieve consensus on this, so folks will still be mad;
- Education is innovation, why strip this away? If you want to simply 'cut' stuff (mainly because your brain is too small to come to bigger and better solutions), you can't come up with something better?

 

[johnson86-1]

Why would we close anything? If the answer is anything other than, "This is good for Mississippi State", then you are an idiot. Because at least there's a self-serving mechanism there that makes sense for all of us.

- The schools are providing jobs inside the state of Mississippi, same with school systems;

If they're doing this without appropriations from the legislature, that's great. If the state is having to spend money to prop them up, then there are probably better ways to spend that money.

- Even if we did save some money by muh cOnSoLiDaTiOn, tell me, where would that money be spent? We would never achieve consensus on this, so folks will still be mad;

The point isn't for people to not be mad, it's to make the state better. Put it into MSU and UM if you want it spent on higher education. Or ideally just let taxpayers keep that much more of their money. We're a relatively high tax state as far as a percent of income. Higher than ever southeastern state except Arkansas. We're pretty close to Alabama but significantly behind Tennessee and Georgia.

- Education is innovation, why strip this away? If you want to simply 'cut' stuff (mainly because your brain is too small to come to bigger and better solutions), you can't come up with something better?

I think you are grossly overestimating what happens at the Valley. I'm guessing also the W although I'm not very familiar with it. If you want innovation, you put that money into MSU or UMMC.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The point isn't for people to not be mad, it's to make the state better.

I don't think this little bit of money moves the needle. But I will admit I like the idea of MSU getting bigger by absorbing the W or whatever, and again, that's self-serving. And closing other schools may net more enrollment for MSU.

That's about it. Muh consolidation to just save money because you think it's wasteful and don't think Superintendent Jimmy Joe doesn't deserve his job? Eh, I'm not convinced. There's a lot of waste out there. I'd rather go after bigger ticket items rather than strip MS of jobs and possible innovation.

 

[johnson86-1]

I don't think this little bit of money moves the needle. But I will admit I like the idea of MSU getting bigger by absorbing the W or whatever, and again, that's self-serving. And closing other schools may net more enrollment for MSU.

That's about it. Muh consolidation to just save money because you think it's wasteful and don't think Superintendent Jimmy Joe doesn't deserve his job? Eh, I'm not convinced. There's a lot of waste out there. I'd rather go after bigger ticket items rather than strip MS of jobs and possible innovation.

If things worked the way you think, we should double the number of superintendents and colleges and just raise taxes to pay for it. But it doesn't work that way. You are stripping MS of jobs with taxes, and generally you are going to strip jobs that make people's lives better in exchange for jobs that make political sense, which may or may not be a net loss for the state.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

If things worked the way you think, we should double the number of superintendents and colleges and just raise taxes to pay for it. But it doesn't work that way. You are stripping MS of jobs with taxes, and generally you are going to strip jobs that make people's lives better in exchange for jobs that make political sense, which may or may not be a net loss for the state.

I didn't say anything about raising taxes or adding jobs.

I'm simply saying that you should think twice before cutting them because you think it makes sense and looks kinda good on a budget line. Playing defense is fine, but if you don't have a good offense, you aren't even competitive, and that's where MS is right now. That small amount of resources you possibly save will not change that.

 

[StateCollege]

This is the kind of discussion that shouldn't really be painted with a broad brush and you have to look at each University based on its own merits. Take Delta State for example. The overall question essentially is "Does this University add value to the State above what it costs the State the run?" and that question is coupled with "What would be the loss in value if the school closed?" i.e. would the student that would have gone to DSU then go to State, Ole Miss, etc.

Just off a quick search, this link indicates that DSU gets around $24 million from "Government Appropriations" (http://www.mississippi.edu/transparency/downloads/2024/dsu.pdf). I could be missing something, but I assume that's their State funding.

At least on the surface, it seems to me that Delta State provides value to the State well above and beyond that number. $24 million isn't chump change, but in the grand scheme of things it really isn't all that much when you consider the overall economic and social impact that DSU has.

 

[J-Dawg]

We have 14 Community Colleges. 9 of them have a larger enrollment than the bottom 3 Public Senior Colleges. As for Hinds-Pearl Campus, I believe its enrollment is larger than the Raymond Campus and the two combined had an enrollment as high as over 9,000 a few years ago which was higher than JSU.

We definitely need less 4 year colleges, but we need more 2 year Vocational-Technical schools because college is not and should not be for everyone.

I can understand Hinds and Holmes having 2nd campuses in the Metro area, as they are more for vocational classes, night classes, etc. Hinds is the only one I'm really familiar with, but I seems awfully redundant to have the Vicksburg and the Utica campuses. Mainly the Utica one..... it's only like 20 mins from Raymond in the first place. Vicksburg at least makes a little sense being a decent population center within their footprint.

What other CC's have multiple campuses besides EMCC, Holmes and Hinds?

 

[patdog]

I can understand Hinds and Holmes having 2nd campuses in the Metro area, as they are more for vocational classes, night classes, etc. Hinds is the only one I'm really familiar with, but I seems awfully redundant to have the Vicksburg and the Utica campuses. Mainly the Utica one..... it's only like 20 mins from Raymond in the first place. Vicksburg at least makes a little sense being a decent population center within their footprint.

What other CC's have multiple campuses besides EMCC, Holmes and Hinds?

I think most community colleges have multiple campuses. GC has one in Gautier, SW has one in Natchez, PR has one in Hattiesburg (20 miles from Jones main campus), etc.

 

[ll Martain ll]

If the state doesn't want to close any schools, they should hone the schools' focus and make sure every one has a specialty that sets them apart, then focus on bringing those kind of jobs to the state. A lot of schools already have that (ex: MSU - STEM/Engineering/Vet school etc...; Ole Miss - Law, Medical; USM - Polymer Science; MUW - Nursing).

Maybe MVSU becomes a more valuable university by becoming the industrial/manufacturing school and we train people to work at Nissan/Toyota/Continental/the new battery plant, etc... Maybe DSU builds on their music department and becomes Mississippi's premiere performing arts university. Maybe Alcorn becomes a haven for Energy and Nuclear Science and we train people to go work at Grand Gulf and in the energy sector.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I can understand Hinds and Holmes having 2nd campuses in the Metro area, as they are more for vocational classes, night classes, etc. Hinds is the only one I'm really familiar with, but I seems awfully redundant to have the Vicksburg and the Utica campuses. Mainly the Utica one..... it's only like 20 mins from Raymond in the first place. Vicksburg at least makes a little sense being a decent population center within their footprint.

What other CC's have multiple campuses besides EMCC, Holmes and Hinds?

The question that needs to be asked is why did they expand in the first place? I can't imagine they did it for nothing, without at least having SOME basis/need for it.

 

[J-Dawg]

Community colleges definitely have a place, and I believe more emphasis needs to be placed on them vs. 4-year colleges. However, compare our CC system to anywhere else in the country. It's out of place. Just think about the redundant administration for each of these campuses/centers. Obviously something has to be done eventually at the 4-year level, but they need to take a long look at improving the efficiency of the CC system as well.

https://www.mccb.edu/colleges

https://www.mdes.ms.gov/media/8597/communitycollege.pdf

1) Coahoma CC (Clarksdale campus)
2) Co-Lin CC (Wesson, Natchez, Simpson campus)
3) East Cent. CC (Decatur, Carthage, Choctaw, Forest, Louisville, Philly campuses)
4) East MS CC (Scooba, Mayhew)
5) Hinds CC (Raymond, Jackson, Allied Health (Jxn), Vicksburg, Utica, Purl)
6) Holmes CC (Goodman, Grenada, Ridgeland, Yazoo City, Kosckiusko)
7) Itawamba CC (Fulton, Tupelo, Belden)
8) Jones CC (Ellisville)
9) Meridian CC (Meridian)
10) MS Delta CC (Moorhead, Greenville, Greenwood)
11) MS Gulf Coast CC (Perkinston, Gautier, Gulfport, Biloxi, Lucedale, plus many other "centers")
12) Northeast CC (Booneville, Corinth, Iuka, New Albany, Ripley)
13) Northwest CC (Senatobia, Southaven, Oxford)
14) Pearl River CC (Poplarville, Hattiesburg, Waveland)
15) Southwest CC (Summit)

Fifteen systems, most with multiple redundancies in a small geographic area. I can understand back in the day in super rural Mississippi, access to transportation may have been hard and the need for all these regional campuses was greater. I do not believe that is the case today.

Off the cuff observation looking at the campus locations and the "service area" map. Is there really a need for Co-Lin AND Southwest? Seems like an opportunity to combine and reduce the overhead... you could even keep all the existing campuses.

Meridian AND East Central? Combine, keep Meridian as a campus and one of the ECCC campuses.

Hinds' service area population is higher than most/all of the others.... but doesn't need one or 2 of it's campuses.

Why is Coahoma CC a system with it's 1 campus and 1 county service area? Combine it with Moorhead and reduce overhead.

Northeast AND Itawamba? etc. etc.

Just seems to me that 1) there are ample opportunities to consolidate this system and drastically reduce administration/athletic/etc overhead and 2) I spent way too much time thinking about this.

 

[J-Dawg]

The question that needs to be asked is why did they expand in the first place? I can't imagine they did it for nothing, without at least having SOME basis/need for it.

To me it's obvious why most of them are expanded/set up in the first place. But alot of those decisions were made 50-75 years ago and are likely unnecessary in current times taking into account expanded transportation infrastructure, online classes, etc.

 

[theoriginalSALTYdog]

I always expected to wake up one day and hear that some good ole boy from the Delta had lost a few loose screws and taken his crop duster over the Grovvvvvvvvvvvvvvve and dumped a few tanks of herbicide

Just think if Harvey Updyke would've had a pilot's license. He would've probably napalmed the hell out of the lovliest idiots on the plains.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Community colleges definitely have a place, and I believe more emphasis needs to be placed on them vs. 4-year colleges. However, compare our CC system to anywhere else in the country. It's out of place. Just think about the redundant administration for each of these campuses/centers. Obviously something has to be done eventually at the 4-year level, but they need to take a long look at improving the efficiency of the CC system as well.

https://www.mccb.edu/colleges

https://www.mdes.ms.gov/media/8597/communitycollege.pdf

1) Coahoma CC (Clarksdale campus)
2) Co-Lin CC (Wesson, Natchez, Simpson campus)
3) East Cent. CC (Decatur, Carthage, Choctaw, Forest, Louisville, Philly campuses)
4) East MS CC (Scooba, Mayhew)
5) Hinds CC (Raymond, Jackson, Allied Health (Jxn), Vicksburg, Utica, Purl)
6) Holmes CC (Goodman, Grenada, Ridgeland, Yazoo City, Kosckiusko)
7) Itawamba CC (Fulton, Tupelo, Belden)
8) Jones CC (Ellisville)
9) Meridian CC (Meridian)
10) MS Delta CC (Moorhead, Greenville, Greenwood)
11) MS Gulf Coast CC (Perkinston, Gautier, Gulfport, Biloxi, Lucedale, plus many other "centers")
12) Northeast CC (Booneville, Corinth, Iuka, New Albany, Ripley)
13) Northwest CC (Senatobia, Southaven, Oxford)
14) Pearl River CC (Poplarville, Hattiesburg, Waveland)
15) Southwest CC (Summit)

Fifteen systems, most with multiple redundancies in a small geographic area. I can understand back in the day in super rural Mississippi, access to transportation may have been hard and the need for all these regional campuses was greater. I do not believe that is the case today.

Off the cuff observation looking at the campus locations and the "service area" map. Is there really a need for Co-Lin AND Southwest? Seems like an opportunity to combine and reduce the overhead... you could even keep all the existing campuses.

Meridian AND East Central? Combine, keep Meridian as a campus and one of the ECCC campuses.

Hinds' service area population is higher than most/all of the others.... but doesn't need one or 2 of it's campuses.

Why is Coahoma CC a system with it's 1 campus and 1 county service area? Combine it with Moorhead and reduce overhead.

Northeast AND Itawamba? etc. etc.

Just seems to me that 1) there are ample opportunities to consolidate this system and drastically reduce administration/athletic/etc overhead and 2) I spent way too much time thinking about this.

Show me the financials before we start talking about 'cutting' anything.

Again, trying to reduce "administration/athletic/etc overhead" screams, "Cut the things that are not important to me". I understand the sentiment but I don't think people understand the long term consequences of cutting jobs and athletic opportunities, in this case.

If the colleges aren't hemorrhaging money, why do you feel those people need to lose their jobs?

 

[J-Dawg]

Show me the financials before we start talking about 'cutting' anything.

Again, trying to reduce "administration/athletic/etc overhead" screams, "Cut the things that are not important to me". I understand the sentiment but I don't think people understand the long term consequences of cutting jobs and athletic opportunities, in this case.

If the colleges aren't hemorrhaging money, why do you feel those people need to lose their jobs?

I've already wasted too much time today***

But, that would definitely be interesting to dive into. And to address your last point, I don't want anyone to have to lose their jobs. Higher ed (and really all public ed) administration is really no different than other public sector positions.... alot of unnecessary positions. And obviously it's a case-by-case basis and would need to be justified, as you mention, but from a tax-payers' perspective, we shouldn't be funding positions just to fund positions.

Anecdotal, but early in my career I worked downtown for a state agency. It was preposterous at the amount of waste. Whole branches devoted to 1 task. In my case, a branch of 4 people to prepare a document that was required by federal authorities every 2 years. It was about a 250 page document. Did we really need 4 people on that team? No. Not to mention that 90% of my time was spent in meetings planning other meetings. I can honestly say that in my 2 years there that I never provided a public service worth justifying my position. Not to mention that we the taxpayers were paying peoples salaries based on a 40 hr work weeks, yet if I came in at 8 AM I'd have to turn the lights on and sit by myself until everyone else trickled in at 9:30. If I stayed til 5? I'd turn off the lights because everyone else left at 3:30. It pissed me off as a taxpayer. Yes, that just my experience, but I 100% guarantee you that it happens across every public sector agency including public higher education. I'm not saying that Jim Bob the welding teacher at the Vicksburg-Hinds Vo-Tech needs to lose his job.... no. He provides a service to the public. Most of the pork can be cut off the top. Coincidentally is why most sane people call for mUh ConSoliDation of the public school systems. Why spend twice when you can spend once and have the same results? If it means Miss Linda in the Accounts Receiving at the Vo-tech loses her $35k/yr job when they cut her office from 5 to 2 employees and still accomplish the same? Then I think that's worth it for the tax-payers.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Anecdotal, but early in my career I worked downtown for a state agency. It was preposterous at the amount of waste. Whole branches devoted to 1 task. In my case, a branch of 4 people to prepare a document that was required by federal authorities every 2 years. It was about a 250 page document. Did we really need 4 people on that team? No. Not to mention that 90% of my time was spent in meetings planning other meetings. I can honestly say that in my 2 years there that I never provided a public service worth justifying my position. Not to mention that we the taxpayers were paying peoples salaries based on a 40 hr work weeks, yet if I came in at 8 AM I'd have to turn the lights on and sit by myself until everyone else trickled in at 9:30. If I stayed til 5? I'd turn off the lights because everyone else left at 3:30. It pissed me off as a taxpayer. Yes, that just my experience, but I 100% guarantee you that it happens across every public sector agency including public higher education. I'm not saying that Jim Bob the welding teacher at the Vicksburg-Hinds Vo-Tech needs to lose his job.... no. He provides a service to the public. Most of the pork can be cut off the top. Coincidentally is why most sane people call for mUh ConSoliDation of the public school systems. Why spend twice when you can spend once and have the same results? If it means Miss Linda in the Accounts Receiving at the Vo-tech loses her $35k/yr job when they cut her office from 5 to 2 employees and still accomplish the same? Then I think that's worth it for the tax-payers.

I don't think there's as much waste as people say. I think that public sector jobs are just low-hanging fruit. I don't know as much about state agencies (specifically MS), so I'll grant you that. And I'm certainly not going to judge whose positions are unnecessary or not. Seems to me like we'd be better off to get rid of crappy people, rather than just make big cuts at the top.

 

[mstateglfr]

I can honestly say that in my 2 years there that I never provided a public service worth justifying my position. Not to mention that we the taxpayers were paying peoples salaries based on a 40 hr work weeks, yet if I came in at 8 AM I'd have to turn the lights on and sit by myself until everyone else trickled in at 9:30. If I stayed til 5? I'd turn off the lights because everyone else left at 3:30. It pissed me off as a taxpayer. Yes, that just my experience, but I 100% guarantee you that it happens across every public sector agency including public higher education. I'm not saying that Jim Bob the welding teacher at the Vicksburg-Hinds Vo-Tech needs to lose his job.... no. He provides a service to the public. Most of the pork can be cut off the top. Coincidentally is why most sane people call for mUh ConSoliDation of the public school systems. Why spend twice when you can spend once and have the same results? If it means Miss Linda in the Accounts Receiving at the Vo-tech loses her $35k/yr job when they cut her office from 5 to 2 employees and still accomplish the same? Then I think that's worth it for the tax-payers.

Redundancy is rarely justifiable in private or public sectors. But when its tax payer funding, the justification is even more difficult to make.
I would like you to consider that while your hypothetical supports your opinion, your hypothetical is hardly evenly applicable across a school district or state's educational systems. There are many instances where people in public education are expected to do more with less year after year. This is especially true of administrative/support departments because when districts are required to cut staffing/GeneralFund costs, they typically try to first cut anywhere but in the classroom so as to limit impact on students.
The other challenge is for Districts to figure out how to pay for needs when various funding sources have all sorts of limitations on how money can be spent. One can fund salaries, one can fund capital improvements, one can fund equipment purchases but only if new, one can fund equipment purchases but not support for the equipment, one can fund salaries that are directly associated to inventory management of equipment paid for from the fund, one cant fund salaries that are directly associated to inventory management of equipment paid for from the fund, one can fund equipment purchases and physical installation but not repair from the very same company of the very same equipment, etc etc etc.

Quite often the result is that a District can have lots of cool things, but lacks the staff to properly service the things or train others on how to best utilize the cool things.






Anyways, I figured I would offer up actual real world examples to help show some of the challenges K12 Districts face across the country. State Legislatures continue to pull back funding from K12 and Higher Ed for various reasons, and expect no drop in quality. More continue to be expected to do more with less.
Everyone can probably point to a Ms Linda they know of or have heard of, but that doesnt mean public education is overflowing with Ms Lindas.