Teacher's Unions? Where is my thread?

[TiogaLion]

I posted a simple topic asking for help to understand the pros and cons of joining a teacher's union which for some reason got nuked. My youngest just graduated this past May from PSU and is starting her first elementary school teaching position and the union rep has asked her to join the union. I've not spent any real time around a union and specifically a teachers union so I'm here looking for some guidance and wisdom to give her as she has asked for my opinion. Her salary is $48K and the union due are $820 so it's a good chunk for her yearly pay. What say you, AKB??

I can only assume someone got political causing a rift an therefore thread deletion. If you don't have direct knowledge on the subject please keep your comments to yourself.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

I can only assume someone got political causing a rift an therefore thread deletion. If you don't have direct knowledge on the subject please keep your comments to yourself.

pretty good guess. You got a few responses that stuck to the question you asked, and didn't bring external aspects to the response. However, most of the responses either were straight political posts, or morphed into political posts half-way through the response, which elicited replies from those with opposite opinions, etc.

 

[TiogaLion]

pretty good guess. You got a few responses that stuck to the question you asked, and didn't bring external aspects to the response. However, most of the responses either were straight political posts, or morphed into political posts half-way through the response, which elicited replies from those with opposite opinions, etc.

Well, thanks for the explanation. I only caught the first reply (the one about railroad unions) and missed the rest. Hopefully some teachers and administrators can give their thoughts on the subject.

 

[Bison13]

It depends on the state you’re in and what exactly a union can do in that state. Here in Maryland they aren’t teachers unions, they are teachers Associations. They’re not necessarily all that strong in most places because of that. Generally I would say as a young teacher she should join for any type of legal representation that might be needed if something were to come up but as she gets older and gets tenure the likelihood of what the union actually gives her versus what she would pay into it are not that much. Again here in Maryland that would be my suggestion and stronger union states it might be more appropriate to stay in it.

 

[TiogaLion]

It depends on the state you’re in and what exactly a union can do in that state. Here in Maryland they aren’t teachers unions, they are teachers Association’s. They’re not necessarily all that strong in most places because of that. Generally I would say as a young teacher she should join for any type of legal representation that might be needed if something were to come up but as she gets older and gets tenure the likelihood of what the union actually gives her versus what she would pay into it or not that much. Again here in Maryland that would be my suggestion and stronger union states it might be more appropriate to stay in it.

Thanks. She will be working in PA, which is historically a pro union state.

 

[Creamery]

My 26th year teaching in PA public schools. IMO Union membership is good for supporting local and state efforts toward contract negotiations. Personally not thrilled with the national issues supported, but you’re paying for all 3 when you join. Also, union representation and liability insurance is included in those fees if a legal issue were to arise with the district. We’ve had some step away from the union And they get private liability ins but not union representation. They pay about 1/3. Loyalty to the local union is a part of the equation as well. It is a lot of money but you already get a lot taken out with retirement withdrawals. I spread out the withdrawals as much as possible so it’s not as big a hit. Hope that’s helpful and not too political….

 

[BobPSU92]

Where the f*ck’s my thread?!

 

[TiogaLion]

My 26th year teaching in PA public schools. IMO Union membership is good for supporting local and state efforts toward contract negotiations. Personally not thrilled with the national issues supported, but you’re paying for all 3 when you join. Also, union representation and liability insurance is included in those fees if a legal issue were to arise with the district. We’ve had some step away from the union And they get private liability ins but not union representation. They pay about 1/3. Loyalty to the local union is a part of the equation as well. It is a lot of money but you already get a lot taken out with retirement withdrawals. I spread out the withdrawals as much as possible so it’s not as big a hit. Hope that’s helpful and not too political….

Thanks. Liability insurance seems like a clear vote on the pro side of joining. Why would she need union representation? Perhaps representation isn't for an individual but instead for the membership?

 

[psuro]

sometimes, threads just do this.....

 

[PSUAXE70]

My 26th year teaching in PA public schools. IMO Union membership is good for supporting local and state efforts toward contract negotiations. Personally not thrilled with the national issues supported, but you’re paying for all 3 when you join. Also, union representation and liability insurance is included in those fees if a legal issue were to arise with the district. We’ve had some step away from the union And they get private liability ins but not union representation. They pay about 1/3. Loyalty to the local union is a part of the equation as well. It is a lot of money but you already get a lot taken out with retirement withdrawals. I spread out the withdrawals as much as possible so it’s not as big a hit. Hope that’s helpful and not too political….

I taught 38 years in a very good school in southeast Pennsylvania. Before teachers’ associations were legalized in the 60’s, a teacher could be fired for having a husband whose politics ran contrary to the school board. Or for turning down a date with the principal. Or for giving an appropriate grade to a failing student whose parent had clout. The best schools I know have unions. If you look at a list of top schools, like the ones that were compiled by US News and World Report, nearly all of them, if not all of them, had teachers unions. Unions allow teachers to concentrate on their job and to feel like they are respected and treated fairly. My experience is that unions are filled with people looking out for each other. There are so many stresses on a teacher that they really need support. Good luck to your daughter. There is an acute shortage of teachers and she will be welcomed to the profession.

 

[PSU12046]

Where the f*ck’s my thread?!

 

[s1uggo72]

Iirc it was about 1.5% per month to join on her $45k salary ($48?). I’d have her ask the Union what do I get? More $$$??? More sick days??? Protection against a RIF?? Then she can decide if it’s worth it. Justify your fee. She might want to ask the administration what they think.

 

[Bkmtnittany1]

I taught 38 years in a very good school in southeast Pennsylvania. Before teachers’ associations were legalized in the 60’s, a teacher could be fired for having a husband whose politics ran contrary to the school board. Or for turning down a date with the principal. Or for giving an appropriate grade to a failing student whose parent had clout. The best schools I know have unions. If you look at a list of top schools, like the ones that were compiled by US News and World Report, nearly all of them, if not all of them, had teachers unions. Unions allow teachers to concentrate on their job and to feel like they are respected and treated fairly. My experience is that unions are filled with people looking out for each other. There are so many stresses on a teacher that they really need support. Good luck to your daughter. There is an acute shortage of teachers and she will be welcomed to the profession.

I would have said the same thing...only I did 35. Was a union delegate/rep for 25 of them. Tioga...she has to join!

 

[91Joe95]

My sister just recently withdrew from her teacher's union after 20+ years. Not worth it financially and was thoroughly disgusted by the political contributions, shut downs, and deciding to acquiesce at the new lax discipline procedures in schools.

 

[WSTLion87]

This current school year is my 24th as a teacher. I always advised younger teachers that unions are essential to educators. It's like having car insurance for your vehicle. They are an absolute must. The two strongest in Pennsylvania are PSEA (A proud sponsor of Penn State Football) and AFT. Without being nosey TIoga do you know which one her school district belongs to at this time?

 

[Fortheglory612]

Yes, as someone else said, I look at it as more of an insurance policy. Liability can be a lot of things that might seem minor or not a big deal, however they can turn into huge deals. But maybe a lawyer can explain that better. Also, if there’s a medical issue or something that comes up that can make someone use all of their sick and FMLA leave they can help advise on that too.

 

[LB99]

I’m the son of a union coal miner. Different occupation, but same idea. Protection of workplace safety was key for the coal miner’s union. For teachers, it sounds like it is more for personal protection against being terminated for frivolous things. Both my brother in law and sister in law are teachers in PA and union members. I wasn’t aware that teachers had a choice. If she doesn’t join, she may be in the minority at her school and not have any backing should a problem arise. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

I wasn’t aware that teachers had a choice.

Janus v. AFSCME, which the US Supreme Court decided on June 27, 2018, negated state rules that mandated that government employees be required to join a union, or be required to pay union dues or fees.

 

[LB99]

If I remember correctly, you said union dues would cost her approximately $843/year? If so, that’s about $70/ month or $16/week. May seem like a lot to a first year teacher on a rookie salary, but it pales in comparison to the cost of having her position and career jeopardized should she find herself on the wrong end of an angry parent or student accusation. With how society is right now, the chances that someone will not be completely on board with her teaching style or decisions some times are pretty high. As others have said, take the insurance policy. She put in the time and effort to get to this point in her life, protect it.

 

[LB99]

Janus v. AFSCME, which the US Supreme Court decided on June 27, 2018, negated state rules that mandated that government employees be required to join a union, or be required to pay union dues or fees.

I understand that, however, I have not personally ever met a teacher that declined to join? Has anyone else?

 

[Tom McAndrew]

I understand that, however, I have not personally ever met a teacher that declined to join? Has anyone else?

well, it applied to new teachers, and also applied to existing teachers. I do know some existing teachers that dropped their union membership after the ruling. I do not know any new (at the time) teachers that did not join the union.

 

[TiogaLion]

This current school year is my 24th as a teacher. I always advised younger teachers that unions are essential to educators. It's like having car insurance for your vehicle. They are an absolute must. The two strongest in Pennsylvania are PSEA (A proud sponsor of Penn State Football) and AFT. Without being nosey TIoga do you know which one her school district belongs to at this time?

I just checked and it's PSEA. Does this make a difference?

 

[Got GSPs]

I posted a simple topic asking for help to understand the pros and cons of joining a teacher's union which for some reason got nuked. My youngest just graduated this past May from PSU and is starting her first elementary school teaching position and the union rep has asked her to join the union. I've not spent any real time around a union and specifically a teachers union so I'm here looking for some guidance and wisdom to give her as she has asked for my opinion. Her salary is $48K and the union due are $820 so it's a good chunk for her yearly pay. What say you, AKB??

I can only assume someone got political causing a rift an therefore thread deletion. If you don't have direct knowledge on the subject please keep your comments to yourself.

My wife is a HS guidance counselor. She doesn’t love paying union dues, but feels that the union would support her if there was ever a legal situation with a parent or if the administration wanted to go after her for something. I’m as anti union as they come, but she has no choice but to work in a union environment so it’s not a bad idea to be fully protected as she has argued.

 

[TiogaLion]

Does anyone know if it's possible to get a larger raise than the union negotiated increases? If so that would be a benefit for non-union, assuming she would be one of the better teachers.

 

[TiogaLion]

My wife is a HS guidance counselor. She doesn’t love paying union dues, but feels that the union would support her if there was ever a legal situation with a parent or if the administration wanted to go after her for something. I’m as anti union as they come, but she has no choice but to work in a union environment so it’s not a bad idea to be fully protected as she has argued.

Everyone keeps bringing up lawsuits and yet I've never heard of one taking place in our local school district. Are lawsuits common? It seems a lot of people like to threaten that they are hiring a lawyer but it seems they rarely do or am I wrong on this belief?

 

[TiogaLion]

I understand that, however, I have not personally ever met a teacher that declined to join? Has anyone else?

Yes, I'd love to hear their thoughts on this subject.

 

[BW Lion]

Most young teaching candidates these days are conversing with each other and deciding that the costs of union membership outweigh the associated contractual benefits

Non-unionized teachers are paid equally, enjoy the same employee benefits but have greater take-home pay.

In the event there is ever a union-based contractual increase in pay, the non-union teachers will likely get a similar escalation provided they are competent.

 

[LB99]

Most young teaching candidates these days are conversing with each other and deciding that the costs of union membership outweigh the contractual benefits.

The are paid equally and have greater take-home pay. In the event there is ever a union-based contractual increase in pay, the no -union teachers will likely get a similar escalation provided they are competent.

Who protects them when they are facing discipline or termination for something that may or may not be justified?

 

[Relayer]

As a Health & PE Teacher I have so many opinions. I've been teaching 20+ years. The last couple have been brutal since the pandemic. I swear the pandemic has made some of these parents crazy. Never been a big union guy, but I get it. They like to say "in solidarity", but when I've seen teachers get blatantly stabbed in the back by other teachers, I get frustrated? I do my job and put in 100% teaching and coaching for the kids.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Does anyone know if it's possible to get a larger raise than the union negotiated increases? If so that would be a benefit for non-union, assuming she would be one of the better teachers.

No, that's not possible in PA, unless it's a non-union school. If there is a recognized union, they negotiate with the district for a contract that covers all the teachers, whether or not they are members of the union.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Everyone keeps bringing up lawsuits and yet I've never heard of one taking place in our local school district. Are lawsuits common? It seems a lot of people like to threaten that they are hiring a lawyer but it seems they rarely do or am I wrong on this belief?

situations rarely go to the level of a lawsuit. Districts and their insurance carriers try to avoid that. If it's a personnel issue, the contract typically specifies a long process that the district must follow. The local union, as well as PSEA, will represent the teacher if he/she finds themselves in that situation.

 

[Got GSPs]

Everyone keeps bringing up lawsuits and yet I've never heard of one taking place in our local school district. Are lawsuits common? It seems a lot of people like to threaten that they are hiring a lawyer but it seems they rarely do or am I wrong on this belief?

I dont know that they are common, but it’s used as a selling point by unions.

BTW, some other unsolicited advice. Again, I’m not a fan of unions and collective bargaining, but why not take advantage of the system you are given. Teachers are paid on a scale based upon their education and years of service. i suggest your daughter start looking for school districts in the commutable area that pay the best. My wife worked in a school district in Lancaster county and when she went to another district in York county she got paid about 50% more. This gets magnifies as your education and service years increase, but schools don’t always want to hire teachers with more experience/education because it increases the budget. Also, your daughter should take as much education as the school will reimburse her for. My wife took easy classes every summer and winter break that didn’t really build towards a degree or certificate but she churned them out. She already had a masters degree but she could have had her PhD if she took the right classes. Then again, the classes would have been more difficult.

 

[Got GSPs]

Does anyone know if it's possible to get a larger raise than the union negotiated increases? If so that would be a benefit for non-union, assuming she would be one of the better teachers.

See my post about maximizing salary. The other option is to move to the administrative side as a principal or similar.

 

[TiogaLion]

No, that's not possible in PA, unless it's a non-union school. If there is a recognized union, they negotiate with the district for a contract that covers all the teachers, whether or not they are members of the union.

Darn. I thought if you didn't join you'd be on your own to negotiate salary. Doesn't seem right that the union can control your salary but not have to represent you in the case of lawsuits. Something isn't right there. I wonder if anyone has ever challenged that aspect as I think they'd have a valid argument.

 

[BVSt.Paul]

Most young teaching candidates these days are conversing with each other and deciding that the costs of union membership outweigh the associated contractual benefits

Non-unionized teachers are paid equally, enjoy the same employee benefits but have greater take-home pay.

In the event there is ever a union-based contractual increase in pay, the non-union teachers will likely get a similar escalation provided they are competent.

So they’re getting all of the financial, etc. benefits of collective bargaining without contributing a dime towards union dues. Sounds pretty selfish.

 

[WSTLion87]

I just checked and it's PSEA. Does this make a difference?

PSEA is IMHO the strongest union in the entire state if not the whole Northeastern US region. I am 100% confident in saying that she must join. Also, please congratulate her and tell her to always "keep her head up.: There will lots of ups and downs in her rookie year but, SHE'S GOT THIS!!

 

[Bison13]

Darn. I thought if you didn't join you'd be on your own to negotiate salary. Doesn't seem right that the union can control your salary but not have to represent you in the case of lawsuits. Something isn't right there. I wonder if anyone has ever challenged that aspect as I think they'd have a valid argument.

Who’s to say that she would get a larger salary? I’m sure a district no matter what size and reputation would be able to find a new college student every year for a much cheaper rate.

 

[PSU1969A]

I posted a simple topic asking for help to understand the pros and cons of joining a teacher's union which for some reason got nuked. My youngest just graduated this past May from PSU and is starting her first elementary school teaching position and the union rep has asked her to join the union. I've not spent any real time around a union and specifically a teachers union so I'm here looking for some guidance and wisdom to give her as she has asked for my opinion. Her salary is $48K and the union due are $820 so it's a good chunk for her yearly pay. What say you, AKB??

I can only assume someone got political causing a rift an therefore thread deletion. If you don't have direct knowledge on the subject please keep your comments to yourself.

As a former PA teacher & union member (officers, building representative, and chief negotiator), I would say unequivocally yes. Yes, the $820/year in dues is high, but so is $48K starting salary. Without the union, her salary would be about $17.5K/year as set by the legislature; don't know if this minimum has been increased since the early 1980s. She gets liability insurance and legal representation if needed, God forbid. Even if she doesn't join the union she is liable to pay a Fair Share to the union for its efforts in negotiations.

 

[Nitt1300]

considering the kinds of people who want to be on school boards these days, some buffer would seem necessary and prudent

 

[Iionscott]

I am starting my 28th year in public education in PA and I echo everyone’s thoughts, she has to join. Liability protection is big. Also, she will need to obtain tenure, which I believe is three years, which is very Important. So, let’s say after year one, the district decides they don’t want to bring he back for year two for whatever reason, it’s possible the union could get involved.

even if she doesn’t join, I believe she has to pay something called fair share. Not exactly sure what that means or how much it is. I agree $800 plus is very high.

not sure of her goals in Education, but right now is a good time to be a young teacher as teachers are in demand. I know of many teachers that have left lower paying districts for jobs in other districts and have gotten raises of 15k-20k per year. just recently, teaching was the only profession where the more experience you obtained the less marketable you became because districts could hire a young teacher at that step 1 salary and most would not want to spend for the experienced teacher. Now, due to shortages you are seeing districts hiring the experienced teachers because they really don’t have a choice.