The REAL elephant in the room…

[mstateglfr]

I keep seeing UWV mentioned as an example of a large state school failing. Yeah its hurting right now, and that is well documented.
With that said, from the many articles I have read that interview Gee and document the last 20 years of UWV funding, much of what UWV is experiencing right now is self created.

They have a president that is all too happy to cut programs and radically transform the state's largest university into something that more closely aligns with a technical college(reduce majors to ones that graduate students into jobs for the state's current industries), and a state government that has consistently reduced financial support and recently increased control over funding.

While the root of WVU’s budget deficit is largely declining enrollment, it’s been compounded by the fact that the university’s budget has become more dependent upon tuition dollars over the last decade as state funding has declined.

How West Virginia lawmakers indirectly influenced WVU's budget cuts

State lawmakers have supported program cuts and layoffs at West Virginia’s flagship university, guided by last year’s performance-based funding formula.

mountainstatespotlight.org

Through a law passed last year, state lawmakers changed how West Virginia’s public colleges and universities are funded and now, have been able to indirectly influence the decision-making for the budget cuts.

“As we worked through the programs that we’ve recommended for reduction or discontinuance, we were guided by the state’s funding formula,” Rob Alsop, vice president for strategic initiatives at WVU, told lawmakers on Monday.

The new performance-based funding formula rewards universities and colleges that help students work towards and complete their degrees on-time, particularly for students who are over 25, low-income or unprepared coming out of high school.

But the formula also particularly prizes degrees that are designated as state priorities for workforce development, including engineering, health care, social work, education, computer science and transportation.

And those state priorities are reflected in WVU’s proposed cuts. Academic programs that are bringing in large numbers of students — and valuable tuition dollars — have largely been spared. Programs that the state had deemed as priorities will see some layoffs, but just one of 18 will be discontinued.

How West Virginia lawmakers indirectly influenced WVU's budget cuts

State lawmakers have supported program cuts and layoffs at West Virginia’s flagship university, guided by last year’s performance-based funding formula.

mountainstatespotlight.org

During this year’s State of the University address, WVU President Gordon Gee pointed to several factors driving the shortfall including declining college-aged population, lower college-going rates, and rising financial costs. But one major factor was glaringly missing: deeply reduced state funding for colleges and universities. In fact, if West Virginia lawmakers had simply kept higher education funding at the same levels as a decade ago, West Virginia University would have an estimated additional $37.6 million in state funding for FY 2024, closing the majority of this year’s budget gap.

Erosion of State Funding for Higher Education Explains Most of WVU's Budget Crisis - West Virginia Center on Budget & Policy

West Virginia University is currently facing a $45 million budget shortfall for the upcoming fiscal year, expected to balloon to $75 million annually by 2028. During this year’s State of the University address, WVU President Gordon Gee pointed to several factors driving the shortfall including...

wvpolicy.org

Declining college population alone does not explain the budget crisis. In 2022, West Virginia’s education appropriations per full-time equivalent were nearly $3,000 below the national average. An analysis from State Higher Education Finance (SHEF) found that over the last few decades, West Virginia’s public colleges and universities have increasingly had to rely on tuition as a share of total revenues as state funding has declined — a national trend that has been even more dire in West Virginia. Between 1980 and 2022, colleges and universities nationwide doubled their reliance on tuition, on average, going from 21 percent to 42 percent of total revenue collected via student tuition. Over that same period, West Virginia’s public institutions tripled their reliance on tuition, going from receiving 19 percent of their total revenue from tuition to 56 percent.

Erosion of State Funding for Higher Education Explains Most of WVU's Budget Crisis - West Virginia Center on Budget & Policy

West Virginia University is currently facing a $45 million budget shortfall for the upcoming fiscal year, expected to balloon to $75 million annually by 2028. During this year’s State of the University address, WVU President Gordon Gee pointed to several factors driving the shortfall including...

wvpolicy.org

 

[BHAMDawg33]

I did a campus tour with my HS Senior this past fall at Ole Miss (we also did Bama, Auburn, Clemson... unfortunately not MSU). During our Ole Miss visit the students were divided up.. 4 groups of out of state visitors vs 1 group of in-state. Which I thought was strange because other schools did it more related to educational interest.

My favorite quote during the entire tour was from our student (TX) tour guide "and don't worry parents if you think your kid will come here and have to hang out with a bunch of kids from Mississippi they won't. Ole Miss is attracting more out of state students than anything.. in fact I have been here 3 years and am proud to say I don't have a single friend from a Mississippi HS"

We also were told during that visit that they think of themselves as more of a TN school than MS.. I guess it sells with HS girls who only have the negative national view of the State of Mississippi.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I did a campus tour with my HS Senior this past fall at Ole Miss (we also did Bama, Auburn, Clemson... unfortunately not MSU). During our Ole Miss visit the students were divided up.. 4 groups of out of state visitors vs 1 group of in-state. Which I thought was strange because other schools did it more related to educational interest.

My favorite quote during the entire tour was from our student (TX) tour guide "and don't worry parents if you think your kid will come here and have to hang out with a bunch of kids from Mississippi they won't. Ole Miss is attracting more out of state students than anything.. in fact I have been here 3 years and am proud to say I don't have a single friend from a Mississippi HS"

We also were told during that visit that they think of themselves as more of a TN school than MS.. I guess it sells with HS girls who only have the negative national view of the State of Mississippi.

MSU sports marketing to Mississippi: This is OUR state.

Ole Miss administration, secretly laughing, and thinking: Our state is dying and they think WE’RE the keepers of old traditions. Well, we’ll sell it to The Sip folks but there’s only one color that matters and that’s GREEN.

I see your recent comments, @Crazy Cotton & @Mr. Cook

 

[mstateglfr]

The one thing that will save universities like MSU and Ole Miss is that people are waking up to how terrible student loan debt is for most people. They can pay full OOS freight and be better off than going to a nearby private school. I suspect it's mostly going to be small liberal arts colleges without true name recognition that are going to be hammered unless they just have an endowment that can keep them self sufficient without typical private school tuition.

Yes OOS may be cheaper than full tuition at a private college. But how many pay full tuition at private colleges? It seems like all of the 15 or so small privates in my state have 'founders grant' and 'presidents grant' offerings that are given out to anyone with a pulse. Some of them state right on the front page of admissions/tuition/aid that anyone living in the state that is accepted will receive the founders grant which is like $20k.
So tuition goes from $45K to $25K. And then actual real incentives push the cost down more- whether the incentives are merit based or demonstrated need based(for the better couple with large endowments).

State school tuition is a great equalizer and given how many state schools there usually are in each state, a student can often get a class size they want too, which in part negates that historical advantage for private schools. And border publics often offer pass-thru reciprocity pricing to bordering states which helps increase the pool of public schools a kid can consider. Given those realities- lower cost and class size options- I really dont understand why private colleges are even heavily considered unless tuition is slashed big time down to at/below state tuition levels. And I really dont understand why someone would go to an out of state school and pay full price, unless that school has some super specific/prestigious major.

OOS for MSU is $26.580 right now. Thats absurd.
In state at Iowa State is $9,634 right now. ISU has rolling admissions so you can find out if you are accepted almost right away, and the university is well ranked both overall and in a lot of specific majors. I cant imagine being a 17yo and wanting to pay $17k more per year for a state school. But somehow a lot of state schools have been able to pull in kids.
Based on MSU's listed merit chart, my kid would pay $3,580 per year for tuition to attend MSU. She would pay $6,634 per year to attend ISU.

I think real incentive can come in for MSU by pulling students away from states where the in state universities dont offer guaranteed merit scholarships, or the merit scholarship offerings are low. Incentivizing prospective students with knowing how much they will receive based on GPA and ACT is really appealing when the alternative is maybe getting something from the in state schools, but not knowing for sure until well after you are accepted.
University of Illinois in UC as well as University of Illinois Chicago are a couple of examples where you likely wont get crap even if you are a great student and you likely wont know until well after you are accepted if you get anything at all. Tuition at both for in state is between $14,000 and $16000.
If I lived in Illinois, wanted to go into engineering and had a 3.8gpa with a 29ACT- I will pay full price for in state tuition at either of those schools or I will pay $10,000 per year at MSU. If I have 3.8 and get a 31superscore on my ACT, I will pay $5,600 for MSU.
$16,000 in state or $5,600 at MSU. $40,000 saved over 4 years- that may be significant enough to entice prospective students.

...but I dont know if MSU really gets this out to kids in areas where it would be most effective.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

...but I dont know if MSU really gets this out to kids in areas where it would be most effective.

They don’t.

Ole Miss and Jackson State have the best out-of-state student recruiting folks in Mississippi.

JSU’s number one out of state student home state: Illinois. They sell the HBCU experience big time.

 

[Boom Boom]

This is just foreshadowing what we will continue to see in the labor market as Boomers continue to retire and there is nobody to replace them. Unfortunately, neither party is doing what it takes to provide meaningful immigration reform to help matters.

Well, Boomers aren't retiring from janitor and such jobs for the most part. For the reduction of labor in the professional class, Big Business just sees it as an opportunity to reduce jobs and cut payroll. They aren't feeling the pinch....yet. you'll know they are when they start pushing for govt money to increase the supply of labor (to keep pay down), like they have been doing for welders and such.

 

[Boom Boom]

This. 7 million people, most of whom cannot get into UGA. Ole Miss outdoes State about 3 to 1 in ATL. Had a fraternity rush guy tell me next year they're not bothering with ATL because it's a waste of time and money. Sad.

Another thing we don't hype as much is the military out of state waiver. DD214 with honorable discharge and ALL out of state tuition is waivered. All of it. We need to trumpet that fact loud and often. Unfortunately people just stumble upon it at orientations or visits. This is a huge deal and I'm proud of it.

This. I have nieces in Atl, and there is no desire to go outside of the state if they can get into a GA school due to the free ride. We have to target the slice that aren't bottom students but couldn't get in to a GA school. No one is paying 5 figures extra to go OoS to MSU.

ETA: added 'extra' for clarity.

 

[Boom Boom]

Yes OOS may be cheaper than full tuition at a private college. But how many pay full tuition at private colleges? It seems like all of the 15 or so small privates in my state have 'founders grant' and 'presidents grant' offerings that are given out to anyone with a pulse. Some of them state right on the front page of admissions/tuition/aid that anyone living in the state that is accepted will receive the founders grant which is like $20k.
So tuition goes from $45K to $25K. And then actual real incentives push the cost down more- whether the incentives are merit based or demonstrated need based(for the better couple with large endowments).

State school tuition is a great equalizer and given how many state schools there usually are in each state, a student can often get a class size they want too, which in part negates that historical advantage for private schools. And border publics often offer pass-thru reciprocity pricing to bordering states which helps increase the pool of public schools a kid can consider. Given those realities- lower cost and class size options- I really dont understand why private colleges are even heavily considered unless tuition is slashed big time down to at/below state tuition levels. And I really dont understand why someone would go to an out of state school and pay full price, unless that school has some super specific/prestigious major.

OOS for MSU is $26.580 right now. Thats absurd.
In state at Iowa State is $9,634 right now. ISU has rolling admissions so you can find out if you are accepted almost right away, and the university is well ranked both overall and in a lot of specific majors. I cant imagine being a 17yo and wanting to pay $17k more per year for a state school. But somehow a lot of state schools have been able to pull in kids.
Based on MSU's listed merit chart, my kid would pay $3,580 per year for tuition to attend MSU. She would pay $6,634 per year to attend ISU.

I think real incentive can come in for MSU by pulling students away from states where the in state universities dont offer guaranteed merit scholarships, or the merit scholarship offerings are low. Incentivizing prospective students with knowing how much they will receive based on GPA and ACT is really appealing when the alternative is maybe getting something from the in state schools, but not knowing for sure until well after you are accepted.
University of Illinois in UC as well as University of Illinois Chicago are a couple of examples where you likely wont get crap even if you are a great student and you likely wont know until well after you are accepted if you get anything at all. Tuition at both for in state is between $14,000 and $16000.
If I lived in Illinois, wanted to go into engineering and had a 3.8gpa with a 29ACT- I will pay full price for in state tuition at either of those schools or I will pay $10,000 per year at MSU. If I have 3.8 and get a 31superscore on my ACT, I will pay $5,600 for MSU.
$16,000 in state or $5,600 at MSU. $40,000 saved over 4 years- that may be significant enough to entice prospective students.

...but I dont know if MSU really gets this out to kids in areas where it would be most effective.

Most private schools have switched to consultant-run systems that calculate what a family will pay and target tuition to that. Bleed em dry. Achievement/scores don't matter, except as to how it affects tuition at public competitors.

 

[Crazy Cotton]

Based on MSU's listed merit chart, my kid would pay $3,580 per year for tuition to attend MSU. She would pay $6,634 per year to attend ISU.

I think real incentive can come in for MSU by pulling students away from states where the in state universities dont offer guaranteed merit scholarships, or the merit scholarship offerings are low. Incentivizing prospective students with knowing how much they will receive based on GPA and ACT is really appealing when the alternative is maybe getting something from the in state schools, but not knowing for sure until well after you are accepted.
University of Illinois in UC as well as University of Illinois Chicago are a couple of examples where you likely wont get crap even if you are a great student and you likely wont know until well after you are accepted if you get anything at all. Tuition at both for in state is between $14,000 and $16000.
If I lived in Illinois, wanted to go into engineering and had a 3.8gpa with a 29ACT- I will pay full price for in state tuition at either of those schools or I will pay $10,000 per year at MSU. If I have 3.8 and get a 31superscore on my ACT, I will pay $5,600 for MSU.
$16,000 in state or $5,600 at MSU. $40,000 saved over 4 years- that may be significant enough to entice prospective students.

...but I don't know if MSU really gets this out to kids in areas where it would be most effective.

The problem with merit-based scholarships, from a school perspective, is that they are incredibly inefficient and are a sign of a school struggling to attract students. The people most likely to qualify probably went to a very well-funded school/took SAT supplemental courses, etc., meaning they're likely well-off and able to pay fairly close to sticker price. You don't want to give them money unless you really need that student for your academic profile (e.g. MSU). You essentially "buy" a class, which means you're often giving money to people who don't need it, and those that are high-need but don't qualify for a merit-based full-ride or close to it are out of luck because you spent all your cash chasing high performing students.

Sure, Iowa (and the rest of the Big 10) are great schools academically, but good luck convincing an 18 yo their dream location is Iowa City, pop 75K?


Now take the Ivys, Vandy, or in the last 10 years, some of the state schools like UGA, UTK, or God help us, Alabama. People want to go there, so they don't need to buy a class. They cherry pick from in-state to enhance class profile, and don't give them jack - your "merit" award is that we let you come here for school, congratulations. There's a ton of well qualified kids in TN that aren't getting in to UTK, I've worked with the data. Now that you've got your high performers (for free) to finish off your class you go after rich out of state kids who didn't get in to their state school but want that kind of experience. They get to pay in the 20K a year range for the honor of attending.

You want to see an example of this? Families with annual incomes of $75,000 or less do not pay anything toward the cost of a Harvard College education, and get a 2K "start up fund" when they walk in the door. Harvard can do this because there's thousands of families happy to give their left nut and 500K a year to get their kid in to Harvard.

Schools that can do this are close or in a hot metropolitan area where kids and/or parents want to be, have managed to burnish their class profile enough that they are considered a decent university, and they have created student infrastructure that feels like resort living. And we're back to Maroon Eagle's point about Noxapater.

 

[johnson86-1]

I don't know how schools like Belhaven will stay afloat.

I don't either but I also don't know how they've stayed afloat this long. I think MC being an actually baptist school plus having some decent alumni support will keep it viable for a while. I don't know what keeps Milsaps viable going forward. I don't think it has much if any reputation outside of Jackson. It does have a decent endowment for how many students are enrolled, but I'm not sure it's enough of one to keep tuition competitive. Then you have the campus location, which I guess helps as far as being close to part time jobs in Jackson, but that just brings up the fact that it's in Jackson.

Won't ever happen because everybody has their turf to protect, but some of these small schools should really think about whether there is a nearby school they can partner with or even consolidate with.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

This. I have nieces in Atl, and there is no desire to go outside of the state if they can get into a GA school due to the free ride. We have to target the slice that aren't bottom students but couldn't get in to a GA school. No one is paying 5 figures to go OoS to MSU.

Yep. As I mentioned about that Chronicle of Higher Education article in the OP, most students want to go to college close to where they live.

That said, the private school my nephews attended had quite a few folks in their classes percentage-wise go out of state (to give you an idea— I think of their school as being kind of similar to St. Andrew’s). They also went out of state initially.

Washington U in St. Louis was the destination of quite a few folks in their classes— that kind of shocked me a little. One actually went to MSU (I was surprised until I found out she signed a soccer scholarship) before transferring to Campbell.

 

[Crazy Cotton]

Fair and solid points. Consolidation / closures are inevitable in today's higher education. More importantly, you tie the university in with economic development (and rightfully so). Not intended to be snarky, but just curious: In your opinion, what would MSU's / Starkville's niche(s) be?

I liked the add campaign that labeled us as "the people's university". My sense is we're a lot better at attracting high-performing in-state kids that Ole Miss, particularly those who resonate with the blue-collar, land grant vibe MSU has. They couldn't have dragged me kicking and screaming to Ole Miss when I was 18, and it had nothing to do with the quality of the education offered. But MS is losing population, and "people's university" doesn't translate particularly well as a "value proposition" to out of state folks, they likely have a land-grant of their own in state.

So you focus on unique majors and programs that can pull good students, but that has to be continually updated or they burn out quick.

Or you do like Alabama and buy a pro football team and put them on campus.

 

[Boom Boom]

Yep. As I mentioned about that Chronicle of Higher Education article in the OP, most students want to go to college close to where they live.

That said, the private school my nephews attended had quite a few folks in their classes percentage-wise go out of state (to give you an idea— I think of their school as being kind of similar to St. Andrew’s). They also went out of state initially.

Washington U in St. Louis was the destination of quite a few folks in their classes— that kind of shocked me a little. One actually went to MSU (I was surprised until I found out she signed a soccer scholarship) before transferring to Campbell.

For ATL kids, it's not distance. They consider plenty of schools 4-6 hours away. But GA schools offers a free ride (if you can get in), and Bama and others are there as a fall back, and are closer to boot. The only niche MSU can fill is being cheaper. But that's the slice that the uni wants to 'run up the score' on financially, so.....

MSU just doesn't have the prestige to play that "bleed" game. If your kid is getting fleeced to get in to college, might as well get fleeced at a school with more prestige. We have to give a discount to lure them. But that means we can't discount in state and high achievers as much.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Most private schools have switched to consultant-run systems that calculate what a family will pay and target tuition to that. Bleed em dry. Achievement/scores don't matter, except as to how it affects tuition at public competitors.

Next thing your gonna be telling me that our public K-12 are gung ho about attendance because of federal funding and not education!

 

[Maroon Eagle]

For ATL kids, it's not distance. They consider plenty of schools 4-6 hours away. But GA schools offers a free ride (if you can get in), and Bama and others are there as a fall back, and are closer to boot. The only niche MSU can fill is being cheaper. But that's the slice that the uni wants to 'run up the score' on financially, so.....

MSU just doesn't have the prestige to play that "bleed" game. If your kid is getting fleeced to get in to college, might as well get fleeced at a school with more prestige. We have to give a discount to lure them. But that means we can't discount in state and high achievers as much.

State would have to have an inroad on the Science/Engineer types: the UGA families with science oriented children and who would rather not them go to Tech, Auburn, or even Clemson.

 

[Hailstate96]

MSU recruiting is doing fine. Largest freshman class in school history. Relax. Ole Miss is in feast/famine cycles with TX kids.

They literally paid sophomores to give up their dorm this year. We need to add some dorms because it’s getting out of hand more and more.

 

[mstateglfr]

The problem with merit-based scholarships, from a school perspective, is that they are incredibly inefficient and are a sign of a school struggling to attract students. The people most likely to qualify probably went to a very well-funded school/took SAT supplemental courses, etc., meaning they're likely well-off and able to pay fairly close to sticker price. You don't want to give them money unless you really need that student for your academic profile (e.g. MSU). You essentially "buy" a class, which means you're often giving money to people who don't need it, and those that are high-need but don't qualify for a merit-based full-ride or close to it are out of luck because you spent all your cash chasing high performing students.

Sure, Iowa (and the rest of the Big 10) are great schools academically, but good luck convincing an 18 yo their dream location is Iowa City, pop 75K?
View attachment 484370

Now take the Ivys, Vandy, or in the last 10 years, some of the state schools like UGA, UTK, or God help us, Alabama. People want to go there, so they don't need to buy a class. They cherry pick from in-state to enhance class profile, and don't give them jack - your "merit" award is that we let you come here for school, congratulations. There's a ton of well qualified kids in TN that aren't getting in to UTK, I've worked with the data. Now that you've got your high performers (for free) to finish off your class you go after rich out of state kids who didn't get in to their state school but want that kind of experience. They get to pay in the 20K a year range for the honor of attending.

You want to see an example of this? Families with annual incomes of $75,000 or less do not pay anything toward the cost of a Harvard College education, and get a 2K "start up fund" when they walk in the door. Harvard can do this because there's thousands of families happy to give their left nut and 500K a year to get their kid in to Harvard.

Schools that can do this are close or in a hot metropolitan area where kids and/or parents want to be, have managed to burnish their class profile enough that they are considered a decent university, and they have created student infrastructure that feels like resort living. And we're back to Maroon Eagle's point about Noxapater.

Yeah, I agree with some of this, but really dont see other scenarios the way you claim.

- first off, I will never claim Iowa City is some destination town for college. But lets be real here- neither is West Lafayette IN, Urbana Champaign IL, Lincoln NE, or Bloomington IN. Downtown MPLS is cool for some, but would be hell for others due to the urban setup and weather. Madison is cool. Northwestern/Evanston is cool.
I also dont think New Brunswick NJ, State College PA, East Lansing MI, Ann Arbor MI, etc are dream locations. They are either cold and/or urban and/or isolated. Those features may be appealing for some, but unappealing to others.
And that doesnt even get into whether Starkville MS, Oxford MS, Auburn MS, etc are dream locations. I personally dont consider those to be dream locations based purely on the area and offerings.
If someone wants to go to a city university, then University of Iowa isnt for them. But that also means very few large public universities are for them. Besides that though, how many people pick a college based on 'destination'? Any rural large public universities offer very similar things in terms of stores, bars, restaurants, sports, etc.

- Solid picture selection. Way to prove your point with that highly selected picture.** I could post nice aerial pictures of the city and region, but that would be a dumb game to play. The first point of mine should be more than enough.

- You say the problem with merit scholarships is they are a sign of a school struggling to attract students. Well if I do agree with that claim, then yeah it applies to MSU. This thread is, in part, about how to make MSU more attractive to potential students. I genuinely do think that in some instances, offering merit is a sign schools are struggling to attract students. Its no different from some smaller publics offering in state tuition for neighboring states, even if there isnt a set law requiring that to happen. But just because it can be true for some schools doesnt mean it is true for all publics.

- If I dont agree that merit scholarships are a sign of a school struggling to attract students, I could point to many schools that offer merit and are also doing OK for enrollment as the easiest and best counter to your claim.

- You give an example of UTK and some others being able to select the best of their state without giving them merit incentive to attend. Well I am saying that if another state does give them merit incentive, then that difference may push some really qualified kids to the out of state school. That was the entire point of my example where I document tuition and merit for a couple of Illinois publics and Iowa State, then compare that to MSU. The ISU to MSU situation may not provide enough incentive, but the Illinois to MSU situation may provide enough incentive.
I am talking about pulling highly qualified OOS kids to MSU and you are talking about high demand universities pulling OOS kids. Those are 2 different things and they require 2 different approaches.

- Yes I am aware of your Harvard example. University of Chicago has something similar where under $110k is free tuition and under $75K is fully free tuition, room, board, books. Northwestern has something similar. Grinnell College here in Iowa has something similar. etc etc etc. Lets leave the top 3% or so of universities in terms of rankings or endowment out of the discussion since what they can do is nothing similar to what publics do or most privates do.

- A university does not need to be in a hot metro area for the school to be in demand. A university does not need to be in a hot metro area for the school to be able to largely choose who they want from in state and not offer incentive for enough of them to attend. A university does not need to have resort living style infrastructure to be in demand.
Yeah these things can be true for specific instances, but can also not at all applicable for other specific instances. It is inaccurate to claim thats the way things are when so many examples show it is not the sole way things are.

 

[johnson86-1]

They literally paid sophomores to give up their dorm this year. We need to add some dorms because it’s getting out of hand more and more.

Who is "they"? MSU? or Ole Miss?

 

[Perd Hapley]

I've been beating this drum forever, nobody cares. Whether we like it or not, MSU is linked to the success of MS and in particular, Jackson. Yeah, we can say that we will live off recruiting Memphis and Birmingham and Huntsville, but Ole Miss is between us and Memphis, and Alabama is in between us and Birmingham, and has the geographic/state edge on Huntsville. LSU/USM to the Coast/NOLA/Mobile. And we are just another college in the boom areas like Atlanta, Nashville, Dallas and Houston.

All this to say - the Jackson Metro is CRITICAL to the growth of MSU. And nobody cares about that, so......

It’s not that nobody cares. It’s beyond dispute that the whole state and everything in it would benefit from the capital city not being a complete cesspool of poverty, incompetence, and corruption.

But the issue is that Mississippi State University has zero control over Jackson’s well-being. I would argue very strongly that even the city’s elected officials and other wealthy and influential residents have zero control over it as well. As a city, its in a socioeconomic death spiral that is unrecoverable. But even if it could be saved, its not going to be saved by the policies, procedures, and general influence of a university that is 120 miles away.

MSU can only focus on what it can control. How it generates funding, how it allocates scholarships and incentives to applicants, what types of students and families it aggressively pursues for enrollment, how it balances in-state and out of state enrollment, etc.

 

[johnson86-1]

Semi-OT: I wish we would focus more incentives based on where you live and work after school.

Something like offering a program to pay a certain amount of money each year after graduation that the student lives in and works in the state. Having graduates go to Birmingham, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Nashville, etc. if fine as far as it goes, but it'd be nicer if they lived and worked in Mississippi. Maybe at whatever point it gets reasonable for them to go to an out of state university (maybe 28-30 ACT?), offer an additional $10k loan on top of everything else that will be forgiven if they live and work in the state for 5 years after graduation? Allow it to be deferred if they go out of state for grad or professional school?

The administration of it would be tough, and it'd be hard to target it to where it actually went to students where it would make a difference as opposed to just paying students that were likely to live in Mississippi after graduation anyway, but worst case scenario, you'd be giving a boost to people that choose to comeback as opposed to itching to move off.

 

[dorndawg]

I don't either but I also don't know how they've stayed afloat this long. I think MC being an actually baptist school plus having some decent alumni support will keep it viable for a while. I don't know what keeps Milsaps viable going forward. I don't think it has much if any reputation outside of Jackson. It does have a decent endowment for how many students are enrolled, but I'm not sure it's enough of one to keep tuition competitive. Then you have the campus location, which I guess helps as far as being close to part time jobs in Jackson, but that just brings up the fact that it's in Jackson.

Won't ever happen because everybody has their turf to protect, but some of these small schools should really think about whether there is a nearby school they can partner with or even consolidate with.

Milsaps is affiliated with the United Methodist Church. They have a pretty solid academic reputation at least within the state (similar to Centenary in Louisiana and Hendrix in Ark) but as you allude to, I'm guessing these have to lean into their endowment pretty hard to put together aid packages to keep kids attracted. Also don't forget athletics at schools like this - a large % of the student body is involved.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I liked the add campaign that labeled us as "the people's university". My sense is we're a lot better at attracting high-performing in-state kids that Ole Miss, particularly those who resonate with the blue-collar, land grant vibe MSU has. They couldn't have dragged me kicking and screaming to Ole Miss when I was 18, and it had nothing to do with the quality of the education offered. But MS is losing population, and "people's university" doesn't translate particularly well as a "value proposition" to out of state folks, they likely have a land-grant of their own in state.

@Mr. Cook and I chatted a few minutes ago about what got us to MSU.

His recruiting experience was different than mine.

He had more options than me while MSU was my longtime favorite with Millsaps and Alabama being strong candidates.

We both agreed Jimmy Abraham did great work.

I thought I wanted to be an engineer so I went to MSU— turns out I thought wrongly.

With the benefit of hindsight, Millsaps would have been a better undergraduate experience for me but you can learn how to think critically at MSU plus I would have missed out on the friendships I made in Starkville.

 

[BigDawg0074]

I've always been #TeamJXN in the sense that I do care about it and hope that one day it could dig itself out of the hole its.

But at the same time, it is so frustrating to me that Mississippi only has one genuine city. I'm fully aware of the challenges that our state has, but even with that we should be able to support an smaller equivalent to a Huntsville, Montgomery, or even a Murfreesboro.

We don't have any other potential candidate either. DeSoto County is doing well, but that has more to do with being in the Memphis Metro Area. The coast has seen some population growth, but nothing major.

It probably should have been Meridian, but they've been heading the opposite direction for a while. Tupelo is doing well, but we are still talking about a population that has grown by 3,500 people in 20 years.

In order for Jackson to dig out of the hole it is in they would need the Madison and Rankin county folks to move into the metro system en masse. The city needs a demographic shift to successful people with bright futures who care about the long term and short term.

 

[BigDawg0074]

Some interesting reads in this thread. But If you’d have told me (back when ole miss waved the stick flags) that in the future….players would be leaving their teams from across the country to transfer to ole miss, I wouldn’t have believed you.

Trust me, they didn’t throw those flags away. They folded them neatly and placed them in the closet.

 

[BoDawg.sixpack]

While we're sort of talking about birth rates, didn't a lot of women get pregnant during the covid shutdowns because they were spending so much extra time with their husbands?

 

[Crazy Cotton]

- A university does not need to be in a hot metro area for the school to be in demand. A university does not need to be in a hot metro area for the school to be able to largely choose who they want from in state and not offer incentive for enough of them to attend. A university does not need to have resort living style infrastructure to be in demand.
Yeah these things can be true for specific instances, but can also not at all applicable for other specific instances. It is inaccurate to claim thats the way things are when so many examples show it is not the sole way things are.

Just telling you what I've seen after 25 years working in higher education, at public and privates in CA, GA, MS, and TN (and a BG10 postdoc). Sure there's examples that don't fit the trend, but then my great uncle Bobby smoked a pack a day and lived to be 96, so I guess smoking can't be bad for you.

State is in a better position long-term than Ole Miss. UM doesn't have the juice to keep up with the big boys as the competition for out of state continues to increase with a smaller and smaller pool of affluent students. State has programs and a reputation that will continue to be attractive to in-state students, and is better positioned I think to pull a group that is growing - 2nd gen immigrant students looking to join the middle class. As an institution I think our history and values line up much better.
Immigrant-origin students are the fastest growing group of students in U.S. higher education, driving 80% of all domestic enrollment growth at colleges and universities from 2000 to 2021

 

[OG Goat Holder]

MSU sports marketing to Mississippi: This is OUR state.

Ole Miss administration, secretly laughing, and thinking: Our state is dying and they think WE’RE the keepers of old traditions. Well, we’ll sell it to The Sip folks but there’s only one color that matters and that’s GREEN.

I see your recent comments, @Crazy Cotton & @Mr. Cook

Like @Mr. Cook asked, I am curious to hear of the alternate solution?

Yes OOS may be cheaper than full tuition at a private college. But how many pay full tuition at private colleges? It seems like all of the 15 or so small privates in my state have 'founders grant' and 'presidents grant' offerings that are given out to anyone with a pulse. Some of them state right on the front page of admissions/tuition/aid that anyone living in the state that is accepted will receive the founders grant which is like $20k.
So tuition goes from $45K to $25K. And then actual real incentives push the cost down more- whether the incentives are merit based or demonstrated need based(for the better couple with large endowments).

State school tuition is a great equalizer and given how many state schools there usually are in each state, a student can often get a class size they want too, which in part negates that historical advantage for private schools. And border publics often offer pass-thru reciprocity pricing to bordering states which helps increase the pool of public schools a kid can consider. Given those realities- lower cost and class size options- I really dont understand why private colleges are even heavily considered unless tuition is slashed big time down to at/below state tuition levels. And I really dont understand why someone would go to an out of state school and pay full price, unless that school has some super specific/prestigious major.

OOS for MSU is $26.580 right now. Thats absurd.
In state at Iowa State is $9,634 right now. ISU has rolling admissions so you can find out if you are accepted almost right away, and the university is well ranked both overall and in a lot of specific majors. I cant imagine being a 17yo and wanting to pay $17k more per year for a state school. But somehow a lot of state schools have been able to pull in kids.
Based on MSU's listed merit chart, my kid would pay $3,580 per year for tuition to attend MSU. She would pay $6,634 per year to attend ISU.

I think real incentive can come in for MSU by pulling students away from states where the in state universities dont offer guaranteed merit scholarships, or the merit scholarship offerings are low. Incentivizing prospective students with knowing how much they will receive based on GPA and ACT is really appealing when the alternative is maybe getting something from the in state schools, but not knowing for sure until well after you are accepted.
University of Illinois in UC as well as University of Illinois Chicago are a couple of examples where you likely wont get crap even if you are a great student and you likely wont know until well after you are accepted if you get anything at all. Tuition at both for in state is between $14,000 and $16000.
If I lived in Illinois, wanted to go into engineering and had a 3.8gpa with a 29ACT- I will pay full price for in state tuition at either of those schools or I will pay $10,000 per year at MSU. If I have 3.8 and get a 31superscore on my ACT, I will pay $5,600 for MSU.
$16,000 in state or $5,600 at MSU. $40,000 saved over 4 years- that may be significant enough to entice prospective students.

...but I dont know if MSU really gets this out to kids in areas where it would be most effective.

So Iowa and Illinois.....where are some other areas?

 

[OG Goat Holder]

This. I have nieces in Atl, and there is no desire to go outside of the state if they can get into a GA school due to the free ride. We have to target the slice that aren't bottom students but couldn't get in to a GA school. No one is paying 5 figures extra to go OoS to MSU.

ETA: added 'extra' for clarity.

Kennesaw muh 17in State, baby

 

[johnson86-1]

Milsaps is affiliated with the United Methodist Church. They have a pretty solid academic reputation at least within the state (similar to Centenary in Louisiana and Hendrix in Ark) but as you allude to, I'm guessing these have to lean into their endowment pretty hard to put together aid packages to keep kids attracted. Also don't forget athletics at schools like this - a large % of the student body is involved.

They're affiliated, but unless something has changed, there's nothing particularly methodist about the environment there. If anything, when I was college age, they seemed to lean into the godless heathen liberal arts college atmosphere.

This is well after my time, but I'm thinking there is still largely that sentiment there: https://kingfish1935.blogspot.com/2018/02/best-brightest-indeed.html

I've got even less familiarity with MC, but my impression from people I've talked to is that MC is overtly christian, and thinks its primary mission is as a christian college, and that the academic freedom to trash christianity and/or christians or religion in general does not trump that mission.

 

[johnson86-1]

While we're sort of talking about birth rates, didn't a lot of women get pregnant during the covid shutdowns because they were spending so much extra time with their husbands?

I believe generally, red states had a small baby boom but blue states had a baby bust, and overall, there was a decline in the birth rate. Wouldn't bet big money on it but I think that's what I read.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

It’s not that nobody cares. It’s beyond dispute that the whole state and everything in it would benefit from the capital city not being a complete cesspool of poverty, incompetence, and corruption.

But the issue is that Mississippi State University has zero control over Jackson’s well-being. I would argue very strongly that even the city’s elected officials and other wealthy and influential residents have zero control over it as well. As a city, its in a socioeconomic death spiral that is unrecoverable. But even if it could be saved, its not going to be saved by the policies, procedures, and general influence of a university that is 120 miles away.

MSU can only focus on what it can control. How it generates funding, how it allocates scholarships and incentives to applicants, what types of students and families it aggressively pursues for enrollment, how it balances in-state and out of state enrollment, etc.

I'm not suggesting MSU itself do something to help Jackson. I'm simply saying that it desperately needs the Jackson Metro to fuel further growth. We need it to provide new students, and be a viable place for graduates. Nobody wants to discuss this now because we have tons of kids, and the metro is still viable and growing a little bit, mainly based on small town Mississippians moving there. But 10 years from now? 20?

So what does this look like? I have no 17ing idea, that's why I sort of think it's hopeless outside of a miracle.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I'm not suggesting MSU itself do something to help Jackson. I'm simply saying that it desperately needs the Jackson Metro to fuel further growth. We need it to provide new students, and be a viable place for graduates. Nobody wants to discuss this now because we have tons of kids, and the metro is still viable and growing a little bit, mainly based on small town Mississippians moving there. But 10 years from now? 20?

So what does this look like? I have no 17ing idea, that's why I sort of think it's hopeless outside of a miracle.

To put it more bluntly, it’s not happening. Jackson is 17ed. It’s 17ed now, was 17ed 20 years ago, and will be way more 17ed 20 years from now. Nothing is changing that.

MSU needs to accept that and fully expect that they won’t be able to count on the Rankin, Madison, and Jackson private school enrollment to the same extent that they have in the past….and adjust their recruiting approach accordingly. They have to find another angle. Waiting on a miracle has never been a viable approach for sustainability or improvement at any institution.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

But at the same time, it is so frustrating to me that Mississippi only has one genuine city. I'm fully aware of the challenges that our state has, but even with that we should be able to support an smaller equivalent to a Huntsville, Montgomery, or even a Murfreesboro.

I've wasted tons of time thinking about this. Huntsville and Montgomery are both smaller, but still cooler. Jackson needs a downtown area like Montgomery, THEN, I think it could make a little progress. But, you'll need a mayor that is amenable to it, and understands that he needs to attract investors. That's not babychok, so until he leaves, there's no point in even hoping.

We don't have any other potential candidate either. DeSoto County is doing well, but that has more to do with being in the Memphis Metro Area. The coast has seen some population growth, but nothing major.

That is correct, we don't. Desoto is suburbia, and while I'm certainly glad we have it, it's not an engine. The Coast is growing, but we all understand the vulnerable geography there. It is what it is, a decent employer and a nice little niche with the casinos.

It probably should have been Meridian, but they've been heading the opposite direction for a while. Tupelo is doing well, but we are still talking about a population that has grown by 3,500 people in 20 years.

Only chance Meridian would have had was if MSU had located there. Better be glad the interstate decided to locate there.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

To put it more bluntly, it’s not happening. Jackson is 17ed. It’s 17ed now, was 17ed 20 years ago, and will be way more 17ed 20 years from now. Nothing is changing that.

MSU needs to accept that and fully expect that they won’t be able to count on the Rankin, Madison, and Jackson private school enrollment to the same extent that they have in the past….and adjust their recruiting approach accordingly. They have to find another angle. Waiting on a miracle has never been a viable approach for sustainability or improvement at any institution.

So we essentially agree, now we're back to square one. Where to recruit?

And I recognize that this isn't much of a problem for 10-20 more years (maybe sooner, with the cliff). My kids are growing up, I'd love to think MSU was a viable place, and it probably will be. But it may just be a 4-5 year stop for them, on the way out of state, if things don't change. Guess it is what it is.

 

[Mr. Cook]

@Mr. Cook and I chatted a few minutes ago about what got us to MSU.

His recruiting experience was different than mine.

He had more options than me while MSU was my longtime favorite with Millsaps and Alabama being strong candidates.

We both agreed Jimmy Abraham did great work.

I thought I wanted to be an engineer so I went to MSU— turns out I thought wrongly.

With the benefit of hindsight, Millsaps would have been a better undergraduate experience for me but you can learn how to think critically at MSU plus I would have missed out on the friendships I made in Starkville.

Slightly veering off ....My opinion is this is where MSU's industry-based alumni can really be of assistance, in more ways than just give philanthropic dollars. By way of example, their expertise could:

• Identify core strengths and potential improvement points of MSU's curriculum (workforce development)
• Identify core competencies in research and development to aid in industry needs (university and Industry collaborations)
• Stronger job-creation activity and foster a "start-up" culture (economic development)

As for students, it's all about creating the most positive college experience they can have and making sure that the degree has value in today's market place (this ties in with the first set of bullets).

Another trend is that some parents are relocating (read: retiring early) to areas where their kids are going to college. Granted, this is easier for some universities that are "destinations" but also recruiting people from states where the cost of living or lining conditions have eroded. There is great opportunity in this for communities who are looking to diversity their economic development skill sets. MSU and Starkville need to continue its "town and gown" approach in lockstep.

Circling back to industry-based alumni, these (industry-based alumni) are people who understand, live and breath the concept of having a "competitive advantage" -- something that needs to be given close scrutiny in the years to come. MSU would do well to lean on these subject-matter experts for the purposes of actionable strategic and tactical planning (as opposed to the armchair QBing I'm doing now or we all do on this board*****).

And, finally, for the record, I don't consider having elected officials as chairs of committees and low-cost education to be areas of excellence nor a core competency. MSU desparately needs to evolve beyond that.

 

[mstateglfr]

So Iowa and Illinois.....where are some other areas?

Some other areas for what?...where MSU should recruit hard and highlight their already aggressive tuition pricing for well qualified students?
I ask for clarification because in my post I say that I dont think Iowa is a great place to focus on due to the state schools being solidly ranked in general ranking and many specific programs, and because the state's schools offer merit discounts that largely nullify MSU's aggressive pricing.

Illinois though would be good, at least in some instances, since the most respected/highly rated/competitive 2 state schools are tight with the purse strings and MSU could offer a cost difference to well qualified students that may motivate some to attend.
A bunch of the directional state schools in IL do offer merit based scholarships though, since they arent in a position to make well qualified in state students pay full tuition(WIL, NIU, SIU, SIUE, etc).


I dont know what other areas/states as I havent looked into it.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Some other areas for what?...where MSU should recruit hard and highlight their already aggressive tuition pricing for well qualified students?
I ask for clarification because in my post I say that I dont think Iowa is a great place to focus on due to the state schools being solidly ranked in general ranking and many specific programs, and because the state's schools offer merit discounts that largely nullify MSU's aggressive pricing.

Illinois though would be good, at least in some instances, since the most respected/highly rated/competitive 2 state schools are tight with the purse strings and MSU could offer a cost difference to well qualified students that may motivate some to attend.
A bunch of the directional state schools in IL do offer merit based scholarships though, since they arent in a position to make well qualified in state students pay full tuition(WIL, NIU, SIU, SIUE, etc).


I dont know what other areas/states as I havent looked into it.

I may have misunderstood that, I thought you said your daughter could have gotten cheaper tuition at MSU after merit discounts. But yeah, either way, Illinois for one. And my question was, which others.

Clemson got a ton of enrollment from NY and NJ. I'm not sure if they targeted a demographic such as this.

 

[mstateglfr]

Semi-OT: I wish we would focus more incentives based on where you live and work after school.

Something like offering a program to pay a certain amount of money each year after graduation that the student lives in and works in the state. Having graduates go to Birmingham, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Nashville, etc. if fine as far as it goes, but it'd be nicer if they lived and worked in Mississippi. Maybe at whatever point it gets reasonable for them to go to an out of state university (maybe 28-30 ACT?), offer an additional $10k loan on top of everything else that will be forgiven if they live and work in the state for 5 years after graduation? Allow it to be deferred if they go out of state for grad or professional school?

The administration of it would be tough, and it'd be hard to target it to where it actually went to students where it would make a difference as opposed to just paying students that were likely to live in Mississippi after graduation anyway, but worst case scenario, you'd be giving a boost to people that choose to comeback as opposed to itching to move off.

Interesting idea. Sorta like Dr Without Borders, Military service agreement after Med School, Nurse Corp, Desert subject teaching agreements, etc.

 

[Perd Hapley]

So we essentially agree, now we're back to square one. Where to recruit?

And I recognize that this isn't much of a problem for 10-20 more years (maybe sooner, with the cliff). My kids are growing up, I'd love to think MSU was a viable place, and it probably will be. But it may just be a 4-5 year stop for them, on the way out of state, if things don't change. Guess it is what it is.

Where to recruit? Pretty much anywhere but Mississippi. Those inside Mississippi who are actually worth pursuing already have their mind made up on MSU, OM, private school, or out of state. Its a waste of time and resources.

The brain drain can’t be reversed from within. We need bright students from out of state….a lot of them. Let them come to MSU, realize that it doesn’t fit the hillbilly rural Mississippi stereotype and is actually kind of a cool place, and maybe decide to stick around.

 

[mstateglfr]

I may have misunderstood that, I thought you said your daughter could have gotten cheaper tuition at MSU after merit discounts. But yeah, either way, Illinois for one. And my question was, which others.

Clemson got a ton of enrollment from NY and NJ. I'm not sure if they targeted a demographic such as this.

Just remembered that University of Minnesota is another that doesnt have a Merit tuition matrix and instead takes a 'holistic approach' to determining tuition for all students.
So while someone in state may get a great offer from them, it wont be known until after applying and acceptance. Even that situation is something MSU could poach some students for since the students would know what their tuition cost would be at MSU before even applying.

LSU and Arkansas also dont advertise a Merit Tuition matrix and at LSU apparently what they do offer isnt even determined until the spring of Sr year. So MSU getting prospective students a known tuition discount and letting them have a plan set earlier in Sr year could be appealing to some.

Again, maybe some or all of this is already happening at MSU. Or maybe they tried it and it didnt work(doubtful as I think this is appealing for many situations in the region and further out).




For what its worth, my kid has not received a single piece of mail from MSU. I get recruiting email spam from MSU. Its still too early for schools to actually push hard and she wont apply until around next May, but that hasnt kept a bunch of colleges and universities, private and public, local and further away, from mailing stuff out randomly.
...and she took a tour of MSU so she is in some sort of database.