Thornwell explains why USC failed to build on FF run

[18IsTheMan]

In short: PJ screwed us over. He was supposed to stay and be the centerpiece of the team for another season or two. Thornwell says he was told by both Zion and Jalek Felton that they didn't come here b/c there would have been no talent to help them out.

No doubt, Dozier leaving had a negative impact. However, I don't think you can hang the demise of the program entirely on the decision of one player choosing to leave early.

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article259400339.html

 

[Harvard Gamecock]

In short: PJ screwed us over. He was supposed to stay and be the centerpiece of the team for another season or two. Thornwell says he was told by both Zion and Jalek Felton that they didn't come here b/c there would have been no talent to help them out.

No doubt, Dozier leaving had a negative impact. However, I don't think you can hang the demise of the program entirely on the decision of one player choosing to leave early.

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article259400339.html

No you can't, and no you shouldn't

 

[GuitarCock]

PJ screwed us over. He was supposed to stay and be the centerpiece of the team for another season or two.

According to who? I didn't read the linked article because of paywall, but everything I've ever read said PJ and his family's plan was two years and Frank and everyone else were aware

 

[18IsTheMan]

According to who? I didn't read the linked article because of paywall, but everything I've ever read said PJ and his family's plan was two years and Frank and everyone else were aware

According to Thornwell.

Yes, I said at the time that Dozier leaving could not have been a total shock to Frank, but he seemed totally unprepared for it.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Zion got paid a lot to go to Duke. That is known for a fact. I dont doubt he told Sin this. But I do doubt it’s 100% true. Looking at that team after the Final Four, I don’t blame PJ one bit for leaving.

 

[18IsTheMan]

No you can't, and no you shouldn't

I suppose the thinking goes: if PJ had stayed then maybe we land Felton, and if we landed Felton then maybe we land Zion, and if we landed Zion then who knows what might have been?

 

[GuitarCock]

According to Thornwell.

I'll take him at his word, but it disagrees with what's been reported previously.

I'm starting to forget the details now, but it seems to me the BB gun incident was a big one in keeping Frank from building the roster he wanted

 

[18IsTheMan]

I'll take him at his word, but it disagrees with what's been reported previously.

I'm starting to forget the details now, but it seems to me the BB gun incident was a big one in keeping Frank from building the roster he wanted

FYI, you can bypass the paywall on a lot of sites (including the article listed) by opening in your browser's incognito mode or whatever. I read this article on Google's incognito mode.

 

[18IsTheMan]

I'll take him at his word, but it disagrees with what's been reported previously.

I'm starting to forget the details now, but it seems to me the BB gun incident was a big one in keeping Frank from building the roster he wanted

I'm sure Thornwell is being honest in reporting what he was told by Felton and Zion. However, Felton committed to UNC in 2014, as a sophomore I think. Looking back over some of his recruiting stuff, it doesn't seem he ever seriously considered us. His coaches at the time said UNC was the only place he ever wanted to play, in part because his uncle Raymond Felton played there. So, he was committed to UNC looooooooooong before PJ declared for the NBA draft, so it cannot have been true that the reason he didn't commit here is because PJ left early.

 

[GamecockWarrior]

In short: PJ screwed us over. He was supposed to stay and be the centerpiece of the team for another season or two. Thornwell says he was told by both Zion and Jalek Felton that they didn't come here b/c there would have been no talent to help them out.

No doubt, Dozier leaving had a negative impact. However, I don't think you can hang the demise of the program entirely on the decision of one player choosing to leave early.

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article259400339.html

You contradict yourself here. You start off by saying PJ screwed us over and then finish up by saying that you can't hang the demise of the program on one player deciding to leave early. Which is it?

 

[18IsTheMan]

You contradict yourself here. You start off by saying PJ screwed us over and then finish up by saying that you can't hang the demise of the program on one player deciding to leave early. Which is it?

Read the title. Thornwell said PJ leaving early is what screwed us over.

I said the latter.

 

[GuitarCock]

Are we to take it Thornwell and Dozier aren't buddies then? Hate to hear that. Both from SC, part of our best team ever, need them in the fold always

 

[Hobcawcreekcock]

Had PJ stayed, we had a really good player to build around at PG or SG. As it was we lost Thornwell, Dozier, Notice, Mckie, and Felder to disciplinary issues. With Kotsar and Silva, we had a good post presence. Guard was where we lost all of our talent except Gravett.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Are we to take it Thornwell and Dozier aren't buddies then? Hate to hear that. Both from SC, part of our best team ever, need them in the fold always

Yeah, I wondered that after reading the article. He doesn't really slam PJ for leaving. Just says that PJ leaving hurt the program.

 

[Legal_fowl]

Personally, (and I can't prove it) I think Frank got a bit lazy with recruiting. He thought the FF would mean players would be beating down the door to come here to play for him.

 

[Viennacock]

All this talk is irrelevant. We didn't build on the final four and Frank is gone!! We need to focus on what is in front of us rather than what is in the rear view mirror.

 

[18IsTheMan]

All this talk is irrelevant. We didn't build on the final four and Frank is gone!! We need to focus on what is in front of us rather than what is in the rear view mirror.

Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Viennacock]

Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

Yes, we will learn a ton from PJ leaving early, Frank being caught with pants down and Thorny's gossip. Good luck with that.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Yes, we will learn a ton from PJ leaving early, Frank being caught with pants down and Thorny's gossip. Good luck with that.

There are lessons to be learned, for sure.

 

[York cock]

In short: PJ screwed us over. He was supposed to stay and be the centerpiece of the team for another season or two. Thornwell says he was told by both Zion and Jalek Felton that they didn't come here b/c there would have been no talent to help them out.

No doubt, Dozier leaving had a negative impact. However, I don't think you can hang the demise of the program entirely on the decision of one player choosing to leave early.

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article259400339.html

I don’t believe an ounce of this crap. Zion knew where the money was, he knew DUKE was a mere stepping stone. All the other is just fluff

 

[TopHook]

In short: PJ screwed us over. He was supposed to stay and be the centerpiece of the team for another season or two. Thornwell says he was told by both Zion and Jalek Felton that they didn't come here b/c there would have been no talent to help them out.

No doubt, Dozier leaving had a negative impact. However, I don't think you can hang the demise of the program entirely on the decision of one player choosing to leave early.

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article259400339.html

@CoachShaneB

 

[GamecockWarrior]

Read the title. Thornwell said PJ leaving early is what screwed us over.

I said the latter.

The title of the thread says nothing about PJ. You made that statement that he screwed us over.

 

[ConwayGamecock]

I put the blame on the coaching staff. You can't explain that other elite players chose not to come to USC because there was no talent there, by blaming any player for leaving USC - because if there was no talent on the team, that means PJ was justified in leaving himself.

The first big thing why we weren't able to build off of the Final Four appearance, was losing 4-5 players the previous season due to off-court legal issues. That thinned out the roster of returning players, and when Carrera, Kacinas, and Chatkevicius graduated after that season, and then Thornwell, Notice, and McKie graduated after the Final Four season the next year, that left the roster with little experienced, proven players.

Then before the Final Four season, we lose Stroman, Gregory, Doby, and Cobb. After the Final Four we lose the above three seniors along with Tut, Keita, Felder, Gueye. That's just way too much turnover over the course of two seasons. We had to replenish the ranks via the original transfer format, which were JUCO transfers and graduate transfers, and the pickings back then were slimmer than what they may be today.

Frank Martin needs time to coach and develop his players into playing the type of team defense he wants his teams to play. So that heavy player turnover set the program back to before the two 25+ win seasons. And the staff wasn't able to capitalize on the FF by going after quality prep talent, to start the build-up over again. So not only do we not capitalize on the FF, but we have a number of mediocre seasons after the FF season - we've gone 75-72 (41-46) in the 5 seasons since 2016-17. If we hired a coach that goes 75-72 (41-46) over 5 seasons, it wouldn't surprise me very much if that coach got fired.......

 

[18IsTheMan]

The title of the thread says nothing about PJ. You made that statement that he screwed us over.

The title of thread is a reference to the article which is an interview with Thornwell explaining why we didn't capitalize on the FF run.

The first sentence of the OP is obviously a summary of Thornwell's analysis, which is that PJ leaving is what screwed us over.

You're the only poster who is confused.

 

[18IsTheMan]

I put the blame on the coaching staff. You can't explain that other elite players chose not to come to USC because there was no talent there, by blaming any player for leaving USC - because if there was no talent on the team, that means PJ was justified in leaving himself.

The first big thing why we weren't able to build off of the Final Four appearance, was losing 4-5 players the previous season due to off-court legal issues. That thinned out the roster of returning players, and when Carrera, Kacinas, and Chatkevicius graduated after that season, and then Thornwell, Notice, and McKie graduated after the Final Four season the next year, that left the roster with little experienced, proven players.

Then before the Final Four season, we lose Stroman, Gregory, Doby, and Cobb. After the Final Four we lose the above three seniors along with Tut, Keita, Felder, Gueye. That's just way too much turnover over the course of two seasons. We had to replenish the ranks via the original transfer format, which were JUCO transfers and graduate transfers, and the pickings back then were slimmer than what they may be today.

Frank Martin needs time to coach and develop his players into playing the type of team defense he wants his teams to play. So that heavy player turnover set the program back to before the two 25+ win seasons. And the staff wasn't able to capitalize on the FF by going after quality prep talent, to start the build-up over again. So not only do we not capitalize on the FF, but we have a number of mediocre seasons after the FF season - we've gone 75-72 (41-46) in the 5 seasons since 2016-17. If we hired a coach that goes 75-72 (41-46) over 5 seasons, it wouldn't surprise me very much if that coach got fired.......

Player attrition is the hallmark of Frank's tenure here.

 

[GuitarCock]

Player attrition is the hallmark of Frank's tenure here.

It's the norm everywhere now though

 

[Thunderstick]

Zion got paid a lot to go to Duke. That is known for a fact. I dont doubt he told Sin this. But I do doubt it’s 100% true. Looking at that team after the Final Four, I don’t blame PJ one bit for leaving.

"That is known for a fact." Link?

 

[GamecockWarrior]

The title of thread is a reference to the article which is an interview with Thornwell explaining why we didn't capitalize on the FF run.

The first sentence of the OP is obviously a summary of Thornwell's analysis, which is that PJ leaving is what screwed us over.

You're the only poster who is confused.

Not confused in the slightest. I see you for exactly what you are.

 

[Fried Chicken]

"That is known for a fact." Link?

A simple Google would’ve worked. I can see the defense already…”alledge”. Yet payments were made. All of this was just swept under the rug. Which is, of course, my point to begin with. As Lon Krueger said, all but 1 of the schools involved in the FBI probe made the tournament this year. Go figure. In addition to this, it is also alleged that his family received $400k for him to go to Duke. Again, some will say “alleged”…but the paper trail exists. It was just all brought to light, and then magically ignored.

https://amp.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article251167494.html

 

[18IsTheMan]

Not confused in the slightest. I see you for exactly what you are.

You busted me. I'm someone who posts links to articles with a brief synopsis of what the article says.

 

[Jeremiah Bullfrog]

Glad to see the old FGF saltiness hasn't gone anywhere.

 

[TheRoo]

From an observer standpoint, Frank and PJ didn't seem like they had the best relationship.

PJ wasn't a fan of Frank's gametime antics and made that very clear.

 

[funktavious]

Had PJ stayed, we had a really good player to build around at PG or SG. As it was we lost Thornwell, Dozier, Notice, Mckie, and Felder to disciplinary issues. With Kotsar and Silva, we had a good post presence. Guard was where we lost all of our talent except Gravett.

Also, the bottom didn't completely fall out. The next season we went 17-16. You add PJ to lead that team and we easily win 20+ games and probably get another NCAA tournament bid. The loss of Felder didn't help matters either. He hit some big shots down the stretch for us in the tournament.

 

[Hobcawcreekcock]

Also, the bottom didn't completely fall out. The next season we went 17-16. You add PJ to lead that team and we easily win 20+ games and probably get another NCAA tournament bid. The loss of Felder didn't help matters either. He hit some big shots down the stretch for us in the tournament.

Felder’s stupidity that led to his dismissal was damn near as big of a loss as Dozier. That team could have had Felder at the 1, Dozier at the 2, Kotsar at 4, and Silva at 5. Add in Gravette and a few others, and that’s a pretty good team!

 

[DenverGamecock]

Felder’s stupidity that led to his dismissal was damn near as big of a loss as Dozier. That team could have had Felder at the 1, Dozier at the 2, Kotsar at 4, and Silva at 5. Add in Gravette and a few others, and that’s a pretty good team!

The Gamecocks probably do not make it past Duke in the second round if it were not for Felder. Dozier made a stupid foul ( I think it was his 4th). Felder comes in and makes a bunch of clutch free throws down the stretch.