Today's WSJ - Article about Auburn and Spending

[bomanishus]

Breaking Down the Spending at One of America’s Priciest Public Colleges​

Auburn University piled money into buildings, administrators and athletics after years of raising costs for students; $74 million recreation center, $51 million dorm​

As the title and subtitle imply, Auburn has spent massively to upgrade itself. To the point that is is extremely expensive to attend, even after scholarships and grants.

They made the decision in the 1990s to become elite, and spending followed. Facilities, mainly, but also staff. The article, which is rather complicated and doesn't lend well to copy/pasting for you, states that their debt service has gone up exponentially but that was a price the leadership was willing to pay to try to achieve the goal.

Those that have been to AU lately report that the money seems to have been well-spent, bringing in a 'higher' clientele and creating a vibe on campus and in town.

Interesting article if you have access.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I've read about Clemson doing this same sort of thing. They really really want to be AAU. Don't know about the spending part of it. Interesting, for sure.

First question in my mind is - can we be a peer of those 2? I mean, they are MSU except in a state with bigger population and better economies. And better marketing - as they have more of a regional brand than us, as we are directly tied to MS, even in name.

 

[Irondawg]

Well it did get them a Bucees

 

[Podgy]

It's good to be rich and powerful and have the ability to borrow and spend while sticking others with the bill. Auburn's president makes what, north of $3 million? He doesn't have to worry if all this spending doesn't work out and he can lobby for a tax cut.

 

[dorndawg]

Interesting article, thanks for sharing. This one from NY Times almost serves as a companion piece: Birmingham Southern is on the cusp of closing, and is trying to get a bailout from the state. Also goes with the discussion we were having here a few days ago about these small private schools.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/us/politics/birmingham-southern-alabama-financial-rescue.html

 

[thatsbaseball]

I've read about Clemson doing this same sort of thing. They really really want to be AAU. Don't know about the spending part of it. Interesting, for sure.

First question in my mind is - can we be a peer of those 2? I mean, they are MSU except in a state with bigger population and better economies. And better marketing - as they have more of a regional brand than us, as we are directly tied to MS, even in name.

LOL Clemson is more MSU than some may realize. This is an excerpt from the will of Thomas Green Simpson establishing Clemson University.

"This institution, I desire, to be under the control and management of a board of trustees, a part of whom are hereinafter appointed, and to be modeled after the Agricultural College of Mississippi as far as practicable."

 

[Podgy]

Don't be a small liberal arts college. The future isn't so bright.

 

[mstateglfr]

Breaking Down the Spending at One of America’s Priciest Public Colleges

Auburn University piled money into buildings, administrators and athletics after years of raising costs for students. Among many new buildings on the Alabama campus: a $74 million recreation center, a $51 million dorm.

www.wsj.com

This worked for me, hopefully other peasants among us can see it this way too.

Some of the 'revelations' seem legit and/or well thought out. Others seem...questionable.
- students voted to fund a rec center and are now paying for it. seems reasonable.
- the president's house is undergoing a $15MM renovation. seems expensive.
- new dorms were built and they decided to not make them seem like a cold war russian apartment building. seems reasonable.
- a new vet building was built. seems reasonable.
- meal plans are mandatory for everyone regardless of where they live. seems 17ing absurd.
- they document on campus housing costs that may be on the high end, but are not egregious compared to multiple universities I have researched.

WHAT THE UNIVERSITIES ESTIMATE FOR IN STATE-

https://auburn.edu/admissions/tuition/costofattendance.php
$12,500 in state tuition.
$7,500 housing(2 person room)
$4,900 food(unlimited swipes)
$1,200 books/supplies
$26,100 total per year.

https://www.admissions.msstate.edu/about/cost-of-attendance
https://www.sfa.msstate.edu/cost/23/ug/
$9,815 in state tuition.
$6,600 housing(cresswell 2 person)
$4,600 food(unlimited swipes)
$1,200 books/supplies.
$22,215 total per year.

...something doesnt add up. Places like UVA, U Vermont, Penn State, and more all have base in state tuition higher than Auburn and I cant imagine the other costs are somehow so dirt cheap at those places that it not only offsets the difference, but puts Auburn so far past that its worth this NYT investigation.
Auburn has definitely increased the cost of tuition, room, and board in the last 20 years. That is quite clear. Water is wet.

 

[woozman]

Interesting article, thanks for sharing. This one from NY Times almost serves as a companion piece: Birmingham Southern is on the cusp of closing, and is trying to get a bailout from the state. Also goes with the discussion we were having here a few days ago about these small private schools.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/us/politics/birmingham-southern-alabama-financial-rescue.html

Shocked that this model would be prone to bankruptcy…

“BSC has about 700 students and 292 employees.”…

 

[Mr. Cook]

I've read about Clemson doing this same sort of thing. They really really want to be AAU. Don't know about the spending part of it. Interesting, for sure.

First question in my mind is - can we be a peer of those 2? I mean, they are MSU except in a state with bigger population and better economies. And better marketing - as they have more of a regional brand than us, as we are directly tied to MS, even in name.

Technically, MSU is a peer to both, as they are southern land-grant universities without medical schools with comparable accolades.

 

[Mr. Cook]

LOL Clemson is more MSU than some may realize. This is an excerpt from the will of Thomas Green Simpson establishing Clemson University.

"This institution, I desire, to be under the control and management of a board of trustees, a part of whom are hereinafter appointed, and to be modeled after the Agricultural College of Mississippi as far as practicable."

Big deal. They stole our model and seem to be running the playbook a lot better than MSU is doing. They have Nattys in football.

ETA: Sarcasterisks are optional

 

[Mr. Cook]

Breaking Down the Spending at One of America’s Priciest Public Colleges​

Auburn University piled money into buildings, administrators and athletics after years of raising costs for students; $74 million recreation center, $51 million dorm​

As the title and subtitle imply, Auburn has spent massively to upgrade itself. To the point that is is extremely expensive to attend, even after scholarships and grants.

They made the decision in the 1990s to become elite, and spending followed. Facilities, mainly, but also staff. The article, which is rather complicated and doesn't lend well to copy/pasting for you, states that their debt service has gone up exponentially but that was a price the leadership was willing to pay to try to achieve the goal.

Those that have been to AU lately report that the money seems to have been well-spent, bringing in a 'higher' clientele and creating a vibe on campus and in town.

Interesting article if you have access.

Auburn understands that they are not just in higher education, but also in the "business of higher education." I read this article as an "investment" in infrastructure to make sure that they can put a---s in seats, which is where the real revenue is made.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

LOL Clemson is more MSU than some may realize. This is an excerpt from the will of Thomas Green Simpson establishing Clemson University.

"This institution, I desire, to be under the control and management of a board of trustees, a part of whom are hereinafter appointed, and to be modeled after the Agricultural College of Mississippi as far as practicable."

What does 1889 have to do with 2023? You're missing the point here.

 

[Duke Humphrey]

Auburn and Clemson have both built a “brand” (fueled in part by football natties/success) of large universities that sound private and don’t own their land grant heritage, making them popular for people across the country, but specifically ATL metro and the Mid Atlantic(Clemson) who pay full freight or damn near close to it which is a cash windfall. There are no scholarships given but the people come anyway

UM is having similar success for those in Georgia and Texas who can’t get into the UT’s/aTm/UGA, as well as Clemson and Auburn. UM having more out of state students pay full freight or closer to full freight allows them to have a windfall of cash, therefore give more in state scholarships, linking it to 615’s thread on in state scholarships

 

[Mr. Cook]

Big deal. They stole our model and seem to be running the playbook a lot better than MSU is doing. They have Nattys in foot

Auburn and Clemson have both built a “brand” (fueled in part by football natties/success) of large universities that sound private and don’t own their land grant heritage, making them popular for people across the country, but specifically ATL metro and the Mid Atlantic(Clemson) who pay full freight or damn near close to it which is a cash windfall. There are no scholarships given but the people come anyway

UM is having similar success for those in Georgia and Texas who can’t get into the UT’s/aTm/UGA, as well as Clemson and Auburn. UM having more out of state students pay full freight or closer to full freight allows them to have a windfall of cash, therefore give more in state scholarships, linking it to 615’s thread on in state scholarships

You may touched on something important here with regard to branding. Seems like more often than not when I talk to people who are not from the south about MSU, they'll ask me "Is that the one located in in Oxford?"

 

[Maroon Eagle]

You may touched on something important here with regard to branding. Seems like more often than not when I talk to people who are not from the south about MSU, they'll ask me "Is that the one located in in Oxford?"

Maybe we should borrow from Auburn and Clemson and rename MSU…

How does Starkville University sound?

#SorryOnlyOneT
#GoodbyeCursiveState
#GottaFigureAWayToKeepTheMScaps

 

[OG Goat Holder]

You may touched on something important here with regard to branding. Seems like more often than not when I talk to people who are not from the south about MSU, they'll ask me "Is that the one located in in Oxford?"

Well, they sort of did the same, with 'Ole Miss'. Nobody cares about the history, but the name resonates and is popular.

Maybe we should borrow from Auburn and Clemson and rename MSU…

How does Starkville University sound?

#SorryOnlyOneT
#GoodbyeCursiveState
#GottaFigureAWayToKeepTheMScaps

I've always thought 'Meridian' was a very Auburny/Clemsony name. Oh well.

Maybe we could go with 'Our State'...University.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

LOL Clemson is more MSU than some may realize. This is an excerpt from the will of Thomas Green Simpson establishing Clemson University.

"This institution, I desire, to be under the control and management of a board of trustees, a part of whom are hereinafter appointed, and to be modeled after the Agricultural College of Mississippi as far as practicable."

For a year, I lived close to Clemson. Every time I went on campus, there was a strong feeling of deja vu. Later, I found out that they modeled Clemson after us.

 

[Mr. Cook]

Well, they sort of did the same, with 'Ole Miss'. Nobody cares about the history, but the name resonates and is popular.


I've always thought 'Meridian' was a very Auburny/Clemsony name. Oh well.

Maybe we could go with 'Our State'...University.

*Ahem*....that would be "THE Our State University"*****

 

[StumpNewGround]

Clemson and Auburn are trying to run from their land grant/ag past as fast as possible. As someone mentioned above, mainly due to ATL metro area/eastern seaboard.

Meanwhile MSU is embracing it and not only embracing it, saying we’re going to be the best in the world.

MSU is the only school in the country and possibly the world, that has set up an ag school of study solely focused on autonomous farming.

I much prefer that route.

 

[DawgsNCowboys87]

LOL Clemson is more MSU than some may realize. This is an excerpt from the will of Thomas Green Simpson establishing Clemson University.

"This institution, I desire, to be under the control and management of a board of trustees, a part of whom are hereinafter appointed, and to be modeled after the Agricultural College of Mississippi as far as practicable."

Yep this is true even though it was a long *** time ago it’s still true and very interesting and I’ve known this a long while. When I told people some people they didn’t believe me. Most did some haven’t so I just proved it.

 

[Mr. Cook]

Maybe we should borrow from Auburn and Clemson and rename MSU…

How does Starkville University sound?

#SorryOnlyOneT
#GoodbyeCursiveState
#GottaFigureAWayToKeepTheMScaps

Clemson and Auburn are trying to run from their land grant/ag past as fast as possible. As someone mentioned above, mainly due to ATL metro area/eastern seaboard.

Meanwhile MSU is embracing it and not only embracing it, saying we’re going to be the best in the world.

MSU is the only school in the country and possibly the world, that has set up an ag school of study solely focused on autonomous farming.

I much prefer that route.

More importantly, this is called a “competitive advantage” — something the State of Mississippi doesn’t seem to embrace with much acumen

 

[BrunswickDawg]

Yep this is true even though it was a long *** time ago it’s still true and very interesting and I’ve known this a long while. When I told people some people they didn’t believe me. Most did some haven’t so I just proved it.

For most people today, it's incomprehensible to think that in the 1870s/80s, Mississippi was at the forefront of education. And it wasn't just MSU. What is now MUW was a model for a number of public women's colleges that popped up in the late 1800s in the south.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Meanwhile MSU is embracing it and not only embracing it, saying we’re going to be the best in the world.

MSU is the only school in the country and possibly the world, that has set up an ag school of study solely focused on autonomous farming.

I much prefer that route.

That's about the only option we have at this point. I like what we've done with drones too, as far as surveillance. I hope that pays off.

But remember, by doing the Ag thing, that's what we're going to attract. We just have to be alright with that.

 

[Maroon13]

you could write a book on all this. But State needs to go all in like Auburn did and rebuild many many buildings on that campus. Especially with the bell cow, engineering.

The whole refurbishment mentality needs to stop and start rethinking where and how to replace, rebuild. Old Main, Charles Lee, Rula and Duff are steps in the right direction. Do more of that and less of "up grades" (hump, carpenter, McCain, McCool etc)

However I have a feeling State just doesn't have the donors for many projects.

 

[paindonthurt]

It's good to be rich and powerful and have the ability to borrow and spend while sticking others with the bill. Auburn's president makes what, north of $3 million? He doesn't have to worry if all this spending doesn't work out and he can lobby for a tax cut.

Who did they stick with the bill? Students? They can easily choose to go to a number of other colleges.

Taxpayers? i'd agree taxpayers shouldn't have to pay unless its a taxpayer who chooses to go to college there.

I certainly don't think throwing money at the college should be done for "prestige". But there are tons of people on this board who think throwing money at education is the answer. ITS NOT.

 

[bannerdawg]

Clemson and Auburn are trying to run from their land grant/ag past as fast as possible. As someone mentioned above, mainly due to ATL metro area/eastern seaboard.

Meanwhile MSU is embracing it and not only embracing it, saying we’re going to be the best in the world.

MSU is the only school in the country and possibly the world, that has set up an ag school of study solely focused on autonomous farming.

I much prefer that route.

Yeah, that’s a sure winner…

 

[mstateglfr]

Who did they stick with the bill? Students? They can easily choose to go to a number of other colleges.

Taxpayers? i'd agree taxpayers shouldn't have to pay unless its a taxpayer who chooses to go to college there.

I certainly don't think throwing money at the college should be done for "prestige". But there are tons of people on this board who think throwing money at education is the answer. ITS NOT.

Ah, here is the common example of someone fundamentally not understanding what a 'tax' is.

Taxes fund all sorts of things that you may not personally need, use, or even want.
Police. Parks. Schools. Roads. Meat production. Libraries. Etc etc etc.

Public universities use public funds to provide an affordable degree to the public.
It's becoming more and more moot though, since state legislatures have consistently reduced state funding for public universities across the country over the last 25 years. Financial burden has then shifted more to the individual.

 

[paindonthurt]

- the president's house is undergoing a $15MM renovation. seems expensive.
- new dorms were built and they decided to not make them seem like a cold war russian apartment building. seems reasonable.

seems reasonable? Wouldn't that depend on the cost of the dorms? Its student housing and not luxury living.

Yes president's house seems expensive if its just on a house.

 

[paindonthurt]

Shocked that this model would be prone to bankruptcy…

“BSC has about 700 students and 292 employees.”…

I hope the state doesn't bail them out. If they do, they should put restrictions on hiring and should force a certain amount of layoffs.

Same thought process with public high schools in mississippi and HBCUs. Really anyone who wants a goverment bail out.

 

[paindonthurt]

Auburn understands that they are not just in higher education, but also in the "business of higher education." I read this article as an "investment" in infrastructure to make sure that they can put a---s in seats, which is where the real revenue is made.

But they really shouldn't be about revenue/profit.

Growth? sure, but education and really most things should be done where they get the best bang for the buck.

Private or stock owned businesses that are successful long term do this very well. For some reason we run government agencies completely backwards.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

But they really shouldn't be about revenue/profit.

Growth? sure, but education and really most things should be done where they get the best bang for the buck.

Private or stock owned businesses that are successful long term do this very well. For some reason we run government agencies completely backwards.

Wait, you say colleges should be about revenue/profit, then you turn around and say they should mimic private or stock owned businesses. Which is it?

I agree that colleges shouldn't be completely concerned about revenue/profit and should be focused on innovation and growth. So many business-minded people (which is good) don't quite understand that. That's why what Auburn has done is probably a good thing.

MSU has to find their niche for investment. But none of this is meant to garner a profit.

 

[paindonthurt]

Ah, here is the common example of someone fundamentally not understanding what a 'tax' is.

Taxes fund all sorts of things that you may not personally need, use, or even want.
Police. Parks. Schools. Roads. Meat production. Libraries. Etc etc etc.

Public universities use public funds to provide an affordable degree to the public.
It's becoming more and more moot though, since state legislatures have consistently reduced state funding for public universities across the country over the last 25 years. Financial burden has then shifted more to the individual.

Police. Parks. Schools. Roads.

I get all of those without paying a dime. It benefits ALL people relatively equally with a very clear standard.

police, parks, schools (high schools), roads, etc are not the same as colleges and universities. I know you know that but you can't admit it.

Everyone goes to high school and learns the main base curriculum. Public taxpayer money shouldn't be funding liberal arts degrees etc. If you want to make certain colleges publicly funded where they learn useful information or gain knowledge experience that can be used in the real world for the benefit of everyone? lets talk then but i bet you are completely against not letting a 2.0 gpa student who missed 20 days a year of high school get a gender studies degree.

Lot of solutions that you are against that would make using public money for those ok but you'd likely disagree.

standard 1 - we'll pay for X amount of junior college or trade school if:
-you graduate high school with xyz gpa and xyz scores in math and reading
-you have xyz in attendance percentage throughout 4 years of high school
-all financial assistance will go towards a core curriculum of math, english comp 1/2 (etc), actual american history/world history
-financial aid is only for xyz time frame that is reasonable to complete core curriculum

standard 2 - we'll pay for Y amount of senior college or trade school if:
-you graduate junior college with xyz gpa in core curriculum in alotted time
-xyz in attendance percentage over 2 years of juco
-all financial assistance will go towards a core curriculum of math, english comp 1/2 (etc), actual american history/world history
-financial aid is only for xyz time frame that is reasonable to complete core curriculum

 

[paindonthurt]

Wait, you say colleges should be about revenue/profit, then you turn around and say they should mimic private or stock owned businesses. Which is it?

I agree that colleges shouldn't be completely concerned about revenue/profit and should be focused on innovation and growth. So many business-minded people (which is good) don't quite understand that. That's why what Auburn has done is probably a good thing.

MSU has to find their niche for investment. But none of this is meant to garner a profit.

i'm saying they should focus on cutting cost without sacrificing revenue/quality.

Most goverment agencies are setup to reward over spending versus rewarding being efficient with budgets.

In the real world, if i do more with less, i usually get more to do more with. If i make $1,000,000 turn in to an ROI of say 20% when the norm is 15%, my company is gonna likely give me $1,500,000 the next time around.

In the bureaucratic world, you usually get less in 2024 if you saved money in 2023.

ITS BACKWARDS.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Police. Parks. Schools. Roads.

I get all of those without paying a dime. It benefits ALL people relatively equally with a very clear standard.

police, parks, schools (high schools), roads, etc are not the same as colleges and universities. I know you know that but you can't admit it.

Everyone goes to high school and learns the main base curriculum. Public taxpayer money shouldn't be funding liberal arts degrees etc. If you want to make certain colleges publicly funded where they learn useful information or gain knowledge experience that can be used in the real world for the benefit of everyone? lets talk then but i bet you are completely against not letting a 2.0 gpa student who missed 20 days a year of high school get a gender studies degree.

Lot of solutions that you are against that would make using public money for those ok but you'd likely disagree.

standard 1 - we'll pay for X amount of junior college or trade school if:
-you graduate high school with xyz gpa and xyz scores in math and reading
-you have xyz in attendance percentage throughout 4 years of high school
-all financial assistance will go towards a core curriculum of math, english comp 1/2 (etc), actual american history/world history
-financial aid is only for xyz time frame that is reasonable to complete core curriculum

standard 2 - we'll pay for Y amount of senior college or trade school if:
-you graduate junior college with xyz gpa in core curriculum in alotted time
-xyz in attendance percentage over 2 years of juco
-all financial assistance will go towards a core curriculum of math, english comp 1/2 (etc), actual american history/world history
-financial aid is only for xyz time frame that is reasonable to complete core curriculum

If our public universities shouldn't receive public funds, why should the high schools?

 

[OG Goat Holder]

i'm saying they should focusing on cutting cost without sacrificing revenue/quality.

Most goverment agencies are setup to reward over spending versus rewarding being efficient with budgets.

In the real world, if i do more with less, i usually get more to do more with. If i make $1,000,000 turn in to an ROI of say 20% when the norm is 15%, my company is gonna likely give me $1,500,000 the next time around.

In the bureaucratic world, you usually get less in 2024 if you saved money in 2023.

ITS BACKWARDS.

Non-profit entities aren't supposed to save - they are meant to put that money to work.

I agree that they shouldn't overspend.

 

[stateu1]

Police. Parks. Schools. Roads.

I get all of those without paying a dime. It benefits ALL people relatively equally with a very clear standard.

Huh? Please explain. Let me know exactly where your tax dollars go if not to these.

 

[mstateglfr]

seems reasonable? Wouldn't that depend on the cost of the dorms? Its student housing and not luxury living.

Yes president's house seems expensive if its just on a house.

Of course the cost matters on whether or not it's 'reasonable'. And I showed actual numbers between an old MSU 2 person dorm room and a comparable at Auburn. Having now seen the cost of housing at 30 different universities across many states and areas, I don't think the Auburn dorm cost listed on their website is egregiously expensive. It's on the higher side, but nothing I would write a NYT article about.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

But they really shouldn't be about revenue/profit.

Growth? sure, but education and really most things should be done where they get the best bang for the buck.

Private or stock owned businesses that are successful long term do this very well. For some reason we run government agencies completely backwards.

Make up your mind

You say Birmingham-Southern shouldn’t be saved by the state of Alabama and at the same time you’re criticizing Auburn for being all about revenue and profit

Here’s the deal: All Academic Institutions (I’ll lump schools with colleges here) care about revenue and profit. A school that has money and is healthy is a school that people are interested in attending.

 

[onewoof]

Breaking Down the Spending at One of America’s Priciest Public Colleges​

Auburn University piled money into buildings, administrators and athletics after years of raising costs for students; $74 million recreation center, $51 million dorm​

As the title and subtitle imply, Auburn has spent massively to upgrade itself. To the point that is is extremely expensive to attend, even after scholarships and grants.

They made the decision in the 1990s to become elite, and spending followed. Facilities, mainly, but also staff. The article, which is rather complicated and doesn't lend well to copy/pasting for you, states that their debt service has gone up exponentially but that was a price the leadership was willing to pay to try to achieve the goal.

Those that have been to AU lately report that the money seems to have been well-spent, bringing in a 'higher' clientele and creating a vibe on campus and in town.

Interesting article if you have access.

AU elite.... Lost all credibility right there