Ukraine - should US take action?
- Thread starter 22yardpunt
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You might have missed it but so did Russia. I'm sure that was an honest oversight on your part.
Yes. You need to pay attention to what they have been saying. They absolutely said that they would about a year ago. If we actually start shooting at them it goes nuclear immediately. Putin has done exactly what he has always said he was going to do so far. Why do YOU think he will change now?
Zelensky is a hero. That said, we cannot get directly involved now. We should have established a no fly zone as soon as we were aware Putin had plans to invade. Had we done that, Putin would have been checked. But our current leadership got caught thinking Putin was bluffing. By constantly telling Putin what we WOULD NOT do, we emboldened Putin further. Geopolitical malpractice.
No the coup we financed that overthrew the Ukrainian government in 2014 is the root cause of all this. I can you show articles from 2014 after the coup that said this would happen. Putin has made clear he wouldn’t allow Ukraine in NATO because NATO has a habit of installing nukes in their countries and pointing them at Russia. He said it was his red line and he would go to war over it. Everyone knows it was heading that way so he went ahead and acted.
Russia is a nuclear superpower and we’ve gotten into a habit of ignoring what they say and just try to impose our will. We didn’t do that with the Soviet Union and we shouldn’t be doing it with Russia. It’s dumb foreign policy.
Negative ghostrider, we have no responsibility to get involved. Innocents get killed everyday all around the world, especially in Africa. Not our fight, if Ukraine was a member of NATO, that'd be a dierrent story.
Tin foil hat:
History repeats itself. The names and times are different, but the net effect is the same. I will post a link to the Strauss-Howe generational theory wiki below, but in a nutshell, there are 4 generational cycles that repeat.
High, Awakening, Unraveling, and Crisis. The 4 cycles combined are about 80 years long or so.
We are currently in the crisis cycle. To hit the previous crisis cycles you just go back 80 years.
Let's go back 80 years - WW2
Let's go back 160 years - Civil War
Let's go back 240 years - American Revolution
The last awakening and cris combined to give us WW1, Spanish Flu Pandemic, Roaring 20's, Prohibition, and the Great Depression which led to the nationalism/populist/isolationalist sentiment for a decade before watching Hitler rise to power sitting on our hands until it was so late the unthinkable happened.
This awakening and crisis have combined to give us the the War on Terror (WW1), Housing Bubble (Roaring 20's) The Great Recession (Depression), Cancel Culture (Prohibition), and Covid (Spanish Flu.). It's human nature after that ******** in both cases to focus internally and become more isolationist. That's our current mood. Only one thing missing to complete the cycle.
As a sidenote, we elected 6 consecutive presidents who combined for 30 years in office from 1909-1939 (Start of WW2) with zero military experience. Prior to that time we had a grand total of 4 scattered throughout our history and never in consecutive terms.
Then from Roosevelt to Bush 1 you had 48 years and 9 consecutive presidents with military experience. Since 1993 (if you don't count W. Bush's little string pulling to get in the Air Guard during Vietnam when it was obvious the guard would never deploy) you have had 5 consecutive presidents and 30 years of no military experience in the White House.. and a whooping 20+ combined draft deferments and a few outright dodgings.
Anywho, it's spooky the similarities of the 30 years from 1909-1939 to the 29 years from 1993 until 2022.
I don't think it's some kind of weird prophecy, but human nature is repeatable and over long enough periods of time we can make the same mistakes in new ways.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory
History repeats itself. The names and times are different, but the net effect is the same. I will post a link to the Strauss-Howe generational theory wiki below, but in a nutshell, there are 4 generational cycles that repeat.
High, Awakening, Unraveling, and Crisis. The 4 cycles combined are about 80 years long or so.
We are currently in the crisis cycle. To hit the previous crisis cycles you just go back 80 years.
Let's go back 80 years - WW2
Let's go back 160 years - Civil War
Let's go back 240 years - American Revolution
The last awakening and cris combined to give us WW1, Spanish Flu Pandemic, Roaring 20's, Prohibition, and the Great Depression which led to the nationalism/populist/isolationalist sentiment for a decade before watching Hitler rise to power sitting on our hands until it was so late the unthinkable happened.
This awakening and crisis have combined to give us the the War on Terror (WW1), Housing Bubble (Roaring 20's) The Great Recession (Depression), Cancel Culture (Prohibition), and Covid (Spanish Flu.). It's human nature after that ******** in both cases to focus internally and become more isolationist. That's our current mood. Only one thing missing to complete the cycle.
As a sidenote, we elected 6 consecutive presidents who combined for 30 years in office from 1909-1939 (Start of WW2) with zero military experience. Prior to that time we had a grand total of 4 scattered throughout our history and never in consecutive terms.
Then from Roosevelt to Bush 1 you had 48 years and 9 consecutive presidents with military experience. Since 1993 (if you don't count W. Bush's little string pulling to get in the Air Guard during Vietnam when it was obvious the guard would never deploy) you have had 5 consecutive presidents and 30 years of no military experience in the White House.. and a whooping 20+ combined draft deferments and a few outright dodgings.
Anywho, it's spooky the similarities of the 30 years from 1909-1939 to the 29 years from 1993 until 2022.
I don't think it's some kind of weird prophecy, but human nature is repeatable and over long enough periods of time we can make the same mistakes in new ways.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory
I think this is a bad take. You can't have no fly zones if you can't enforce them. You can enforce them without nato jets shooting at russians. You know good and well putin would play that game of chicken. To your second point the only ppl that believed in the bluff were the Ukrainians. The US was reading the Russian war plans aloud for the world to hear every day for a month. They had 200k Russians on their border and still got caught with their pants down. They should have had every road and bridge between Kiev and Moscow mined, arms distributed, snipers behind every tree, jets hidden in Poland.
Damn. Guess I'll go to bed now.
That was a depressing read.
In all seriousness...I can buy that. Humans are a strange animal. Our brains developed. Moved on from nomadic hunter gatherer life. Figured out agriculture. Came up with grand political and religious stories that aligned millions and made some pretty outstanding cultures (despite the bad that can come with it) in the process.
Yet, we have this tendency to get comfortable and make up reasons to listen to the next charismatic psychopath or retreat to some metaphorical cave we lived in during our early years bc our neighbors get on our nerves culturally, politically, or economically. We just can't stand having nice things for extended periods of time and tear it down, then build it back up. Lather, rinse, repeat.
That was a depressing read.
In all seriousness...I can buy that. Humans are a strange animal. Our brains developed. Moved on from nomadic hunter gatherer life. Figured out agriculture. Came up with grand political and religious stories that aligned millions and made some pretty outstanding cultures (despite the bad that can come with it) in the process.
Yet, we have this tendency to get comfortable and make up reasons to listen to the next charismatic psychopath or retreat to some metaphorical cave we lived in during our early years bc our neighbors get on our nerves culturally, politically, or economically. We just can't stand having nice things for extended periods of time and tear it down, then build it back up. Lather, rinse, repeat.
You mean the coup that overthrew the guy Putin had installed? The one that had overwhelming support from the people there. Quit apologizing for Putin Nancy Astor. In case you missed it Ukraine is NOT in NATO and had no prospect of ever being so, prior to this invasion. You bought his line. Amazing, and scary. You need to read Putin's writing and listen to his speeches on this. He has laid it all out for YEARS. He wants all lands and peoples he sees as historically Russian back under Moscow's rule. That is STRAIGHT out of Hitler and Mein Kamph. I actually had the opportunity to read Mein Kamph in my old high school's library. Hitler laid out what he was going to do to. So has Putin. Nobody took either seriously until it was too late. At least WE seem to have woken up this time at the rough equivilent of Munich. Oh by the way, we ABSIOLUTELY did it with the USSR. Ever heard of Korea and Vietnam, among MANY others? The difference was that Stalin and the Russian rulers during Vietnam never threatened nuclear war over that.
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It’s all very complicated… one side of me says protect the weaker people and blow those Russian convoys off the road, and see what happens but be ready for the consequences. Another side says let Europe work out its own problems because we can sustain ourselves. There is no right answer and no one will be satisfied with whatever decision that is made. One thing is for sure though. Go after their money and we get a lot closer to an outcome that we can all feel much better about.
And they won't either. In fact they have gone all in. This confirmed that decision. It's new day. Not a bright new day either.
Cool. My 5 yr old can practice duck and cover along with active shooter drills
Good times!
Good times!
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