Vanderbilt and South Carolina

[Todd4State]

the announcers said that they have something like 17-18 draft picks out of high school on their team right now. Unless, I'm forgetting somebody, we have eight on our team presently.

That in a nutshell is the difference between us and the elite teams in the SEC. We have to keep adding talent and adding guys that MLB wants. Considering these players stay in school for an average of three years, we need to get 5-6 every year.

 

[ScaldedDawg]

HowareCorbin/Van Horn/Maineri etc able to keep them from going pro? It seems like we always have a few we always lose to the pros, while these other teams get these guys to come to school.

And they all look 30, andf have been playing baseball forever.

 

[Todd4State]

In the past, even if you were drafted in the 50th round, the thought was you would be "crazy to turn down the opportunity".

Now, what has happened is you started seeing guys like Mark Prior get drafted late in the first round and then go to college for three years, and then become the first pick in the draft and end up with more money. Plus, you go to college, you still have leverage to sign even after three years.

Moneyball also changed the way teams drafted- at least for a little while. One thing I think MLB has learned- most American born MLB players play college baseball first. So, they've started to draft more and more college players higher, which has of course, pushed a lot of high school players lower, which has caused them to go to college.

Nowadays, you have to be an elite high school player, be a legit five tool player or have absolutely electric stuff, and you have to be signable to get drafted high.

We did lose Corey Dickerson last year- but, we signed our other five players that got drafted. Including Hunter Renfroe. That's actually become pretty typical for college teams. So, odds are pretty good that even if you recruit a high school prospect that is a draft prospect, odds are still pretty good that you will get that player unless they are a top 10 round type pick. And even then, there is still a chance.

Polk didn't get that, or he didn't want to fool with players that got drafted. Because back in the day, we would have been lucky to get half of those guys that got drafted. Polk decided it would be better to not waste time on a lot of those players unless they promised to not go in the draft- like Ed Easley and Mitch Moreland. I know Easley withdrew his name from the draft out of high school- not sure about Moreland, but he wasn't drafted out of high school. Of course, the problem was, everyone else was getting draftable talent and we were getting left behind. That includes Vandy, South Carolina, and Florida.

I really think that, Polk's insistence on recruiting out of the baseball camp and Russ McNickle destroying our pitching staff is what got us in the situation that we are in now. Heck, we're still trying to rebuild our pitching staff as it is. That's why we have zero senior pitchers and only four juniors.

 

[Phil Wenneck.sixpack]

We were signing guys that chose us over South Alabama, UAB, etc. Sure, the write ups would put together some stats and awards that made it sound good but the proof was in the pudding. Polk's last several classes were all this way. With the sheer amount of players drafted in all those rounds, if you've got a team full of players never once drafted out of high school or juco, you're way behind half of this league. Vandy deserves a heck of a lot of credit for playing to their strengths in academics and promising a solid degree if baseball doesn't work out. They were a total baseball door mat before Corbin but they're definitely doing something right. The main thing is they are going up north to places like Conneticut where college baseball doesn't exist hardly and landing some top notch players.

 

[Todd4State]

Have criticized MSU signing Victor Diaz- but the fact that he is from New Jersey could open up some leads for us up there. The new JUCO catcher we just signed- Nic Amaratti is also from New Jersey as well.

St. Louis and Chicago would also be good places to go to find players- baseball is big in those two cities, but college baseball- not so much.

The New York area has tons of people- someone is going to be able to play.

Now, I'm not saying that those areas are California, Florida, Texas, Georgia type hot beds- but they're pretty decent places to look.

We've gotten players from Florida, Texas, and Georgia- I would like to see us go into California and see if we can get a player or two. There have been several that are playing for SEC schools right now- like Ficcocello for Arkansas.

 

[basedog]

20 players that were drafted and some very high.

The culture has changed in many ways, one being what program can they go to and get exposed to MLS such as Florida, Vandy or SC who have so much talent scouts leave at their parks and that brings more attention to other players who will get exposed. Also, with the SEC being so competitive with attendance and facilities, players have more options to attend a school with good fans, stadiums, competition and coaching.

Btw, I see Florida and Vandy as having the most talent, I do think Florida has more depth with Vandy having better "team ball". I also think Ray Tanner has proven he is the best coach in the SEC and maybe in the country.

 

[DirtyLopez]

or some other former Dog baseball player who was from up north mention this exact thing on this board back when we hired cohen. He basically said that there is alot of good players up that way that would pay their own way to play college baseball in MS because even our out of state tuition is cheaper than what they have to pay up there and they would get to play in the SEC. And in the past some of our best baseball players have been from up north. Masters and Petrulis come to mind.

 

[drofdirt]

Success breeds success; failure dooms you to fail. Look at the top three coaches in the SEC: Corbin, O'Sullivan, Tanner. All three have demonstrated the ability to recruit, train and produce products that were viewed as gems in the MLB first-year player draft. That success has consistently translated into having players drafted in the early rounds for a lot of $$$$. And these coaches are doing this on a consistent, year-to-year basis, against some pretty rigorous constraints of competition for talent, high institutional academic standards, and the load of NCAA imposed limitations. But all three of these excellent coaches has the remarkable ability to take excellent feed-stock and make it even better! That is something that many other coaches, including several at MSU in recent history, seemed to lose touch with, and/or really had no ability to do in the first place. Skip Bertman's tenure at LSU was marked by that same quality, ie. taking the best, making them better, and moving them to the show with a leg up on their competition for professional baseball playing time and positions.

Frankly, even though a lot of folks point to John Cohen's apparent success at Kentucky, I don't think we have yet to see that kind of quality production from our current coach. Arguably, much of John's success at Kentucky was in no small measure due to the talent that long-time coach Keith Madison left behind when he retired. He also employed a meat-ax approach to stocking his team, something that current NCAA APR restrictions and penalties might not permit. John did not get the same boost when he assumed the position vacated by Ron when he was forced out by General Foglesong. So we will have to wait and see if John grows into the position that he accepted, or becomes another casualty of a system that has limited capacity to innovate and excel.

But in watching the Vanderbilt - South Carolina game last night on the tube, it is clear that we are light-years away from being at the level that those two teams are currently playing. I guess I have serious doubts that we will ever get that good, based on our reputation to be a mediocre team in most athletic sports that we pursue, at least based on the last 40 years of athletic activity. Maybe things will change for the better; I certainly hope so!

 

[Todd4State]

you would retract the part about Keith Madison leaving him talent. They were awful.

Tanner and Corbin have been at their schools for a lot longer than Cohen has been. I don't think Cohen was really at UK long enough so that they could reach their potential as a program- there's no telling what kind of a program that they would have if he was still there.

His tenure at UK vs MSU has been somewhat similar- the first two years were rocky, but then the third year was good. Cohen's fourth year at UK, they had a winning season. We'll see if the same holds true at MSU next year, although I think it probably will happen.

If we keep adding draftable talent, we will catch up before long.

Bertman also ruined a lot of players- he figured out how to win using the circumstances around him in the college game at the time- to his credit. Once they started to cut down on the bat's exit speeds, Bertman left.

 

[ScaldedDawg]

I guess I have serious doubts that we will ever get that good, based on our reputation to be a mediocre team in most athletic sports that we pursue, at least based on the last 40 years of athletic activity. Maybe things will change for the better; I certainly hope so!

Hell, we WERE the envy of other SEC baseball teams back prior to1990 when no one but us gave 2 ***** about college baseball. It has been done here.

I think what pisses me off so much is that we invested so much time in thus sport, and teams like Vandy.SC/Ark/Florida etc., whose fans could really care less about baseball, win.

 

[KurtRambis4]

first I've ever read about Cohen inheriting a good deal of talent at UK.

 

[AROB44]

nm

 

[War Machine Dawg]

I remember that post too. He said he talked to Polk about it, and shortly thereafter, Polk went to Chicago and got Conner Powers.

It would definitely be worth our time to go north & look for talent. As much as this team has overachieved this year, imagine the difference if we had a Conner Powers at 1B instead of Anti-Clutch Collins. Hell, Norris should be playing 1B anyway. He may have struggled with the bat, but at least he has upside. And he's a 2-time SEC Freshman of the Week. CT can't even say that.

 

[VinceVega70]

General Foglesong will always have a warm place in my heart for his willingness to do what needed to be done. Regardless of the backlash. He correctly identified the deficiencies of our athletic director, declined to renew his contract, and then went out and hired a young innovator who laid the foundation for our current unprecedented growth and success. Larry Templeton was "dug in like an alabama tick" with many powerful people at State, but Foglesong did not let that thwart what needed to be done. Ultimately, I think Foglesong left because of his unwillingness to be political and play the game.
Coach Polk will always have a warm place in my heart, too, but it was time to move on when he did. There is a point of complacency that can happen when one enjoys a long period of satisfaction in any pursuit. Coach Polk was there. His recruiting efforts were lagging. Our results were showing it. In his mind, he'd moved on to more interesting issues, like taking taking on City Hall/NCAA. It was affecting his job and our program. He was given time to see that. His ego would not. And the rest is history. Coach Polk handled the situation like a man who considers himself greater than the program he built. This is a common tale. Foglesong recognized this and made the right move.
</p>

 

[MedDawg]

Vandy and Viriginiamay or may not have HOPE-type scholarships, but they definitelyhavemulti-billion dollar endowments for secondary scholarships. South Carolina and Floridahave HOPE-typestate-sponsored scholarships.Does State have enoughacademic, etc. scholarship money to allow every baseball player to go to school for free? I wouldn't doubt that Vandy, South Carolina, Florida, and Virginiado.

It may seem like a tired old argument, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some validity to it.

Also, the highly academic schools(Vandy, North Carolina, Virginia, Stanford, Rice, etc.) may have an advantage in baseball that they don't have in football. For whatever reason, many of the the best HS baseball players may be more attracted to a better academic school.

 

[GOL Hawk]

ScaldedDawg]

drofdirt wrote:

I guess I have serious doubts that we will ever get that good, based on our reputation to be a mediocre team in most athletic sports that we pursue, at least based on the last 40 years of athletic activity. Maybe things will change for the better; I certainly hope so!

Hell, we WERE the envy of other SEC baseball teams back prior to1990 when no one but us gave 2 ***** about college baseball. It has been done here.

I think what pisses me off so much is that we invested so much time in thus sport, and teams like Vandy.SC/Ark/Florida etc., whose fans could really care less about baseball, win.

I have been a baseball fan my whole life, though I played football. And as Hog fan I have followed the team pretty much every year since the late 70's. I remember well when State was a power house ball team and I think this is just a down cycle for the west. They will all be stout again over thje next couple of years.

 

[ScaldedDawg]

GOL Hawk wrote:

I have been a baseball fan my whole life, though I played football. And as Hog fan I have followed the team pretty much every year since the late 70's. I remember well when State was a power house ball team and I think this is just a down cycle for the west. They will all be stout again over thje next couple of years.

Arkansas and South Carolina made some trips to Omaha (neither was in the SEC at the time, though). Just sad that a once proud program who had the likes of Will Clark/Rafael Palmerio/Bobby Thigpen/etc. could go into the crapper like we did.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

they've been top 3 nationally in attendance for a while now.<div>
</div><div>Your point about Florida and Vanderbilt is a very good one though.</div>

 

[basedog]

SC and Arkansas both have a long tradition of good baseball and fans with passion. They had tradition long before both joined the SEC. When we start winning big our fans will turn out as winning creates excitement and this year has shown a little light of our program coming back.

 

[Todd4State]

but we also have some advantages that some of the other schools don't- we have a tradition of winning, we have a large fanbase that cares- apparently we are still up there in attendance, although that could certainly be better, and baseball is a very important sport at MSU- it's not that way at every SEC school. Our facilities are still pretty good even though they need updating- there aren't very many schools that have an IPF for baseball.

All of those things are very attractive to baseball players.

We may not have the HOPE scholarship, but we can attract the top players in the state- we may not get all of them, but we can get a majority of them as we are doing now, and we can use things such as MTAG and other grants and scholarships, which helps. The rule where you have to have 28 players on some form of athletic scholarship helps us out with that and levels the playing field out a little bit. We also have some players like Brayden Jones and Sam Frost that are on academic scholarships and are considered academic walk-ons and that allows us to use more money on out of state players like Daryl Norris.

 

[alabamadog]

They have twelve players from the north, including players like Esposito, Casali, and Yastrzemski. They also have four players from Texas.