Was Lemonis handed a national title?

[8dog]

Indiana is a horrible program historically….in a horrible, horrible conference. Keep in mind that the B1G every year ranks below even the Sun Belt in Conference RPI. And Indiana is a historical bottom 3 program in that league. Making 3 regionals in 4 years there is a major accomplishment….and making the postseason there is never a “mediocre season”. That’s absurd. I think at the time he left, he was responsible for 50% of their postseason appearances over 60 something years as a program….in only 4 years.

Here’s the real resume:

At IU:
- 3 very good seasons
- 1 pretty good season by IU standards, where they just missed the postseason

At MSU:
- 2 outstanding seasons
- 1 cancelled season that was at minimum going to be at least a pretty good season (this one always gets me because people seem to think we could have finished DFL this year too….even though things were very much still “on the rails” with the program at this time).
- 2 terrible seasons

So, he had 7 consecutive years of much better than average performance at 2 different programs. That’s how I know he’s a good coach. The 2 terrible seasons were the most recent 2. Root cause still unknown as to how much is just bad run of circumstances with the pitching coach, pitching injuries, and pitcher recruiting, or if there’s more to it. But he’s still well above par for his career when judging his performance against his predecessors at both schools.

You wouldn’t look at a guy who made 3 minor bowl games in 4 years at Vandy and say “how do we know if he’s a good coach?”.

Here is the simplest question: how many good coaches have ever put together a two year run even comparable Lemonis’s 22 and 23 more than 2-3 years into their tenure. My guess is zero.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Here is the simplest question: how many good coaches have ever put together a two year run even comparable Lemonis’s 22 and 23 more than 2-3 years into their tenure. My guess is zero.

Well, Polk was certainly headed there if he stuck around in 2009 and beyond. And if we’re talking all sports….Jackie in ‘01-‘03 and Richard Williams in 97-98 both come to mind. And those are just MSU exanples. And while this hasn’t happened yet, also keep an eye on Bianco in 2024. No one seems to mention that he had an even worse season in 2023 than we did in 2022, and did it with much higher expectations and no injury excuses.

Of course, all 4 of those were or would be burn-out / negligence examples that I think everyone hopes isn’t the case with Lemonis. But even if that becomes evident, it doesn’t make him a bad coach. It makes him a good coach that lost the fire and focus that he needed to keep things rolling….just like all those other guys did, albeit for likely different reasons (sans Bianco). So we’ll see.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Polk and Cohen both did less with more talent several times

 

[Bullldawg78]

I don't know ask this guy.....

 

[Eleven Bravo]

The last time I talked with Lemonis was one afternoon in McComb-don’t remember the date, but he and the team were on their way to play LSU in Baton Rouge and they stopped off in McComb for a crawfish boil sponsored by the local alumni group there. Lemonis told me (and I believed him) that there was nothing wrong with his team that getting several pitchers healthy wouldn’t fix. He told me that injuries to a number of pitchers had really hurt the team and that if these guys get healthy (as expected) that next year we will see an entirely different pitching staff. I later talked with Stone Simmons (very impressive young man) who is coming off a TJ surgery and rehab and he told me that he’s never felt better or pitched better in his life. I’m going to go with optimism rather than pessimism here-it makes life a little better that way…

 

[8dog]

Well, Polk was certainly headed there if he stuck around in 2009 and beyond. And if we’re talking all sports….Jackie in ‘01-‘03 and Richard Williams in 97-98 both come to mind. And those are just MSU exanples. And while this hasn’t happened yet, also keep an eye on Bianco in 2024. No one seems to mention that he had an even worse season in 2023 than we did in 2022, and did it with much higher expectations and no injury excuses.

Of course, all 4 of those were or woukd be burn-out / negligence examples that I think everyone hopes isn’t the case with Lemonis. But even if that becomes evident, it doesn’t make him a bad coach. It makes him a good coach that lost the fire and focus that he needed to keep things rolling….just like all those other guys did, albeit for likely different reasons. So we’ll see.

I’m just talking baseball. Bianco has had a 20 year run where he made OM one of the top 15 programs in the land. So yeah you can say “he was good and got burned out”. Lemonis hasn’t been a head coach anywhere more than 5 years. He hasn’t done anything to show that he can build a program that is a national contender. Not shockingly he took over at Indiana after Tracy Smith had built that program up.

 

[maroonmania]

Please tell me you don’t really believe this. A recruit is considering 2 schools. “It’s close but I like School A’s coach, facilities, players a little better and the NIL money is comparable. But some anonymous person posted something mean on s message board, so Im signing with School B instead.”

No, not when ONE anonymous random poster does it but when a majority of the posters are saying it and it seems to be the general sentiment of most of the fanbase, absolutely it can have some effect. Heck, everyone is very positive on Arnett and Jans and Purcell and I feel that is giving those programs positive momentum in all areas including recruiting. Seems to be mostly negative vibes on baseball all around which certainly doesnt help things. And a lot of it is absolutely warranted after missing Hoover 2 straight years. But you don't think a recruit is likely to read a thread on a sports message board of a school he is considering where he is the primary subject? Sure he does, I certainly would. And I'm not saying that is a primary decision factor for them but it certainly doesn't help the cause.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I’m just talking baseball. Bianco has had a 20 year run where he made OM one of the top 15 programs in the land. So yeah you can say “he was good and got burned out”. Lemonis hasn’t been a head coach anywhere more than 5 years. He hasn’t done anything to show that he can build a program that is a national contender. Not shockingly he took over at Indiana after Tracy Smith had built that program up.

So its OK to say Bianco “got burned out” but not Lemonis, because of nothing more than duration of service? That’s silly.

Honestly, what are the chances that Bianco just so happened to get burned out, in year 23, in the absolute exact year after winning a national title? Seriously, think about that. He had, by far, the worst season of his career immediately after what was, by far, the best year of his career. And he did it with multiple early round draft picks on the roster, and no major bad run of luck with injuries.

Believe it or not, the “heavy lies the crown” phenomenon is a real thing that affects people in all professions after major accomplishments. Its why people like Saban who have an insatiable desire for perfection are so incredibly rare. Doesn’t mean the people that accomplished those things got undue credit that they never deserved, and didn’t even have a basic competency in their field.

But also to be clear, if that is what is really at the root of everything from 22-23, then we definitely should have cut bait last May and moved in a different direction. So I certainly hope that pitching health and development is all that it really is.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Indiana has 3 Big 10 titles, 3 Big 10 tournament titles, 8 NCAA regionals & 1 CWS in the last 14 seasons. It ain’t that hard to have pretty good seasons there.

What they have done recently in the godawful B1G is irrelevant.

Indiana has won one regional in their history. ONE. That happened in 2013….same year they were in the CWS with us and had a 2-time MLB All-Star in Kyle Schwarber who was probably the best hitter in that whole CWS field. That was their MSU in 1996 basketball / MSU in 1998 football type season for their baseball program.

Beyond that one magical run, the absolute die hard ceiling for their program has been simply making the NCAA tournament. Lemonis reached that ceiling 3 out of 4 years, and didn’t miss it by much in the 4th year. What else would you have asked him to accomplish?

 

[8dog]

So its OK to say Bianco “got burned out” but not Lemonis, because of nothing more than duration of service? That’s silly.

Honestly, what are the chances that Bianco just so happened to get burned out, in year 23, in the absolute exact year after winning a national title? Seriously, think about that. He had, by far, the worst season of his career immediately after what was, by far, the best year of his career. And he did it with multiple early round draft picks on the roster, and no major bad run of luck with injuries.

Believe it or not, the “heavy lies the crown” phenomenon is a real thing that affects people in all professions after major accomplishments. Its why people like Saban who have an insatiable desire for perfection are so incredibly rare. Doesn’t mean the people that accomplished those things got undue credit that they never deserved, and didn’t even have a basic competency in their field.

But also to be clear, if that is what is really at the root of everything from 22-23, then we definitely should have cut bait last May and moved in a different direction. So I certainly hope that pitching health and development is all that it really is.

No. What I’m saying is you can say Bianco was a good coach that got burned out because he proved such taking a bad program and making it top 15 over a 20 year stretch.

Lemonis has never built a program himself so you cant say he is a good coach that got burned out. Maybe he is burned out but the guy has only been a head coach for 9 years. Thats not a long time in college baseball.

And the seeds of this disaster were sewn long before we won a title. I just dont get people wanting to go to battle for him. What he is doing is really hard to do at a school so passionate about baseball and with so many resources. We are in an awful spot long term even if we get in the tourney next year. 2025 will be rough.

If 15 P5 jobs of schools that care anything about baseball came open right now is anyone even calling to see if Lemonis is interested even if he let it be known he would listen?

 

[Perd Hapley]

No. What I’m saying is you can say Bianco was a good coach that got burned out because he proved such taking a bad program and making it top 15 over a 20 year stretch.

Lemonis has never built a program himself so you cant say he is a good coach that got burned out. Maybe he is burned out but the guy has only been a head coach for 9 years. Thats not a long time in college baseball.

So you are punishing Lemonis in your argument simply because he won a title much earlier in his career than Bianco did. That’s wild. You are missing the whole point….it is the accomplishment itself that causes the burnout. Not the wear and tear of multiple years going into it and highs and lows. It was the same with Jackie….after that 1998-2000 run, he hit a wall because he’d already achieved everything that was possible in MSU football and knew he couldn’t top it. Same with Richard Williams.

And he DID build programs both here and at IU. His would-be Year 5 team at IU won the Big 10 and made the regionals - reached the ceiling for that program. Who built that team? With absolutely no help, he sustained what we had with lots of players getting better, and added the key ingredients we absolutely had to have to complete that 2021 team - Bednar, DuBrule, Preston Johnson, Stone Simmons, and others.

And the seeds of this disaster were sewn long before we won a title.

They were sewn at the same time as the seeds that added the players that won the title. So its not all good or all bad. For the “disaster” part, we all have no choice but to hope the farmer was Foxhall moreso than Lemonis.

I just dont get people wanting to go to battle for him.

Maybe remind yourself that he won a national title at Mississippi State, while having two other really good teams that preceded that title team. That’s why people who have a say are exercising due diligence and caution regarding his future. Like or not, the people with the real power at MSU who have way more than enough money and influence to get whatever info they need about Lemonis himself and every internal facet of our program have decided pretty unanimously that they don’t think Lemonis is the problem. At least that’s the current assessment. So take that for what you will. But those folks have way more direct access and info than you or I ever will.

What he is doing is really hard to do at a school so passionate about baseball and with so many resources. We are in an awful spot long term even if we get in the tourney next year. 2025 will be rough.

You both underrate how easy it is to suck without pitching, and greatly overrate our resources. We have great resources and history compared to most other programs nationally, but we are very middle of the pack in our own conference in both. Not so much different from football, but unlike football we were just lucky enough to be good in baseball in the 70’s and 80’s to develop the fan following to boost us into the middle tier of the league moreso than the current bottom third of the league that football resides in.

If 15 P5 jobs of schools that care anything about baseball came open right now is anyone even calling to see if Lemonis is interested even if he let it be known he would listen?

Depends. If it happened right now in July 2023, my guess is probably not because many might feel the burn-out risk is too high. No matter how high you fly in your career, that’s difficult to come back from ever. Saw it with guys like Andy Lopez (after his 2nd title) and others. But if he were to return us to relevance in 2024 with at least a comfortable regional at large bid, then certainly.

 

[8dog]

So you are punishing Lemonis in your argument simply because he won a title much earlier in his career than Bianco did. That’s wild. You are missing the whole point….it is the accomplishment itself that causes the burnout. Not the wear and tear of multiple years going into it and highs and lows. It was the same with Jackie….after that 1998-2000 run, he hit a wall because he’d already achieved everything that was possible in MSU football and knew he couldn’t top it. Same with Richard Williams.

And he DID build programs both here and at IU. His would-be Year 5 team at IU made the regionals - reached the ceiling for that program. Who built that team? With absolutely no help, he sustained what we had with lots of players getting better, and added the key ingredients we absolutely had to have to complete that 2021 team - Bednar, DuBrule, Preston Johnson, Stone Simmons, and others.



They were sewn at the same time as the seeds that added the players that won the title. So its not all good or all bad. For the “disaster” part, we all have no choice but to hope the farmer was Foxhall moreso than Lemonis.



Maybe remind yourself that he won a national title at Mississippi State, while having two other really good teams that preceded that title team. That’s why people who have a say are exercising due diligence and caution regarding his future. Like or not, the people with the real power at MSU who have way more than enough money and influence to get whatever info they need about Lemonis himself and every internal facet of our program have decided pretty unanimously that they don’t think Lemonis is the problem. At least that’s the current assessment. So take that for what you will. But those folks have way more direct access and info than you or I ever will.



You both underrate how hard it is to suck without pitching, and greatly overrate our resources. We have great resources and history compared to most other programs nationally, but we are very middle of the pack in our own conference in both. Not so much different from football, but unlike football we were just lucky enough to be good in baseball in the 70’s and 80’s to develop the fan following to boost us into the middle tier of the league moreso than the current bottom third of the league that football resides in.



Depends. If it happened right now in July 2023, my guess is probably not because many might feel the burn-out risk is too high. No matter how high you fly in your career, that’s difficult to come back from ever. Saw it with guys like Andy Lopez (after his 2nd title) and others. But if he were to return us to relevance in 2024 with at least a comfortable regional at large bid, then certainly.

I’m not punishing him. I would say Bianco was a good coach even if he hadn’t won a title. If I had to start a program today and I had to hire Bianco (no burnout) or Lemonis (no burnout) it’s a no brainer. I’m hiring Bianco, title or no title. Honestly I’m hiring almost anyone other than Lemonis. But the burn out thing is a really odd excuse.

The rest of it we can just agree to disagree. I just dont think he knows what he is doing.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I’m not punishing him. I would say Bianco was a good coach even if he hadn’t won a title. If I had to start a program today and I had to hire Bianco (no burnout) or Lemonis (no burnout) it’s a no brainer. I’m hiring Bianco, title or no title. Honestly I’m hiring almost anyone other than Lemonis. But the burn out thing is a really odd excuse.

The rest of it we can just agree to disagree. I just dont think he knows what he is doing.

Let me ask you one simple question. In your estimation, how many bad coaches have won a CWS, under any circumstances (inherited good team, just one or two elite players, you name it)?

Please name every bad coach (in your opinion) that has won a baseball natty from the very first one all the way through 2019. You’ve already voiced your thoughts on those after 2019, except Jay Johnson. But if you think he sucks, go ahead and name him too.

 

[Perd Hapley]

But the burn out thing is a really odd excuse.

It’s not an excuse….an excuse would be saying he got burned out and he deserves a chance to get his fire back because of what he accomplished. That ain’t what I’m saying. Him being burned out (or not) is simply a fact either way. It’s a consideration to support the notion that he is, or at least was, a very good coach.

And if the burnout is real, let the record show that he should have been fired on the plane ride home from Omaha like @aTotal360 demanded. Hopefully its not, though.

 

[8dog]

Let me ask you one simple question. In your estimation, how many bad coaches have won a CWS, under any circumstances (inherited good team, just one or two elite players, you name it)?

Please name every bad coach (in your opinion) that has won a baseball natty from the very first one all the way through 2019. You’ve already voiced your thoughts on those after 2019, except Jay Johnson. But if you think he sucks, go ahead and name him too.

The Fresno State coach. and he beat Dave Perno! But it doesn’t happen much because usually it takes time to build a program to have that success. And thats what good coaches do.

Lemonis situation is totally nuanced. Not many people take over programs as healthy as ours was. But then when the program becomes theirs to own, it’s quickly a disaster. It’s unique. And what he has done is by far the worst coaching job in college baseball history. And thats with doing a pretty good job in the portal the last two seasons.

Again. Just agree to disagree. No one would
Touch the guy with a ten foot pole right now if they had an opening.

 

[paindonthurt]

You're putting words in my mouth. It's not debatable that Lemonis inherited a championship caliber team with a culture of winning. Whether it was only two guys, or it was eight guys he inherited that made the difference in 21, there was a culture in place that had been there. That's what he inherited. The guys he brought in that contributed also were influenced by the culture already in place.

And just so you know, that culture is not here anymore. I understand you're trying to absolve Lemonis of responsibility here, but that's the issue at the core with this program.

2 things can be true.

He only inherited TA and Rowdey. True.

He’s responsible for 2022 and 2023.

Actually more things can be true.

2022 shouldn’t have been so bad but injuries had a big part in it.

2023 was always going to be a down year but shouldn’t have been so down.

2023 looks way different if we have 50 less walks.

 

[Perd Hapley]

The Fresno State coach. and he beat Dave Perno!

Uhhhhhhhh, really? Mike Batesole? Same guy who won Collegiate Baseball national coach of the year….TWICE…..at 2 different schools? Same guy who had a distinguished D1 head coaching career of 26 consecutive years in California….with multiple conference titles, regionals, etc. That’s what you’re going with? That guy’s a bad coach?

Agree to disagree, indeed.

 

[patdog]

So you are punishing Lemonis in your argument simply because he won a title much earlier in his career than Bianco did. That’s wild. You are missing the whole point….it is the accomplishment itself that causes the burnout. Not the wear and tear of multiple years going into it and highs and lows. It was the same with Jackie….after that 1998-2000 run, he hit a wall because he’d already achieved everything that was possible in MSU football and knew he couldn’t top it. Same with Richard Williams.

And he DID build programs both here and at IU. His would-be Year 5 team at IU made the regionals - reached the ceiling for that program. Who built that team? With absolutely no help, he sustained what we had with lots of players getting better, and added the key ingredients we absolutely had to have to complete that 2021 team - Bednar, DuBrule, Preston Johnson, Stone Simmons, and others.



They were sewn at the same time as the seeds that added the players that won the title. So its not all good or all bad. For the “disaster” part, we all have no choice but to hope the farmer was Foxhall moreso than Lemonis.



Maybe remind yourself that he won a national title at Mississippi State, while having two other really good teams that preceded that title team. That’s why people who have a say are exercising due diligence and caution regarding his future. Like or not, the people with the real power at MSU who have way more than enough money and influence to get whatever info they need about Lemonis himself and every internal facet of our program have decided pretty unanimously that they don’t think Lemonis is the problem. At least that’s the current assessment. So take that for what you will. But those folks have way more direct access and info than you or I ever will.



You both underrate how hard it is to suck without pitching, and greatly overrate our resources. We have great resources and history compared to most other programs nationally, but we are very middle of the pack in our own conference in both. Not so much different from football, but unlike football we were just lucky enough to be good in baseball in the 70’s and 80’s to develop the fan following to boost us into the middle tier of the league moreso than the current bottom third of the league that football resides in.



Depends. If it happened right now in July 2023, my guess is probably not because many might feel the burn-out risk is too high. No matter how high you fly in your career, that’s difficult to come back from ever. Saw it with guys like Andy Lopez (after his 2nd title) and others. But if he were to return us to relevance in 2024 with at least a comfortable regional at large bid, then certainly.

A regional is the ceiling for Indiana baseball? That’s news to Tracy Smith. BTW, guess which one of the last 3 Indiana coaches did not win a Big 10 title.

 

[8dog]

Uhhhhhhhh, really? Mike Batesole? Same guy who won Collegiate Baseball national coach of the year….TWICE…..at 2 different schools? Same guy who had a distinguished D1 head coaching career of 26 consecutive years in California….with multiple conference titles, regionals, etc. That’s what you’re going with? That guy’s a bad coach?

Agree to disagree, indeed.

Yes. Him.

 

[Perd Hapley]

A regional is the ceiling for Indiana baseball? That’s news to Tracy Smith.

Absolutely. When you play baseball in a conference for 78 straight years, and you never win a regional for 77 of those 78 years, you don’t get to say your ceiling is any higher than your best accomplishment in those 77 years because of one magical run in one season. Its gotta be achievable at a frequency of at least more than once in the average American’s lifespan to be a real, reasonable ceiling on a year over year basis.

What would you say if I told you MSU football’s ceiling was winning the SEC West, or MSU men’s basketball’s ceiling was the the Final Four?

BTW, guess which one of the last 3 Indiana coaches did not win a Big 10 title.

I’m guessing the current one, since Lemonis won the 2019 Big 10 title. Of course, he was at MSU already, but that guy that took over for him inherited a loaded Lemonis roster and thus can’t claim any credit and it all has to go to Lemonis, right?

 

[Perd Hapley]

Yes. Him.

Okay. Do you care to elaborate even a little bit on this thesis, or are we simply to believe that a national title winning, 2-time National COTY winning, quarter-century tenured coach with multiple other postseason and conference accolades….who was also NEVER fired….is a bad coach….just because 8dog says so?

 

[8dog]

Okay. Do you care to elaborate even a little bit on this thesis, or are we simply to believe that a national title winning, 2-time National COTY winning, quarter-century tenured coach with multiple other postseason and conference accolades….who was also NEVER fired….is a bad coach….just because 8dog says so?

Sure

1. Collegiate Baseball is a joke. I have actually posted that before.
2. He got COY in 08 bc they won the title which is just standard lazy “journalism”. He got it in 1998 bc….I literally Have no idea. His team didn’t even make the tourney.
3. Once they moved to the MWC he made the tourney once in his last 9 seasons which tells me being in the WAC was a huge advantage in making the tourney.
4. He was never hired by anyone else which is wierd. Maybe he loved Fresno. But that doesn’t add up.
5. I don’t really care. If you want me to say he is a good coach it doesn’t change my view on Lem. He is just the name that came to mind. At the end of the day Lemonis has done the worst coaching job in college baseball history I dont think anyone can dispute this all things considered.

there are a lot of ways to say this so let me say - if. We could have Justin Haire or Cliff Godwin right now at no charge I think most everyone would make that move.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Sure

1. Collegiate Baseball is a joke. I have actually posted that before.

Why? Honest question.

2. He got COY in 08 bc they won the title which is just standard lazy “journalism”.

So winning the national championship at freaking Fresno State isn’t COTY worthy?

He got it in 1998 bc….I literally Have no idea. His team didn’t even make the tourney.

Can’t pretend to know the exact reasons, but they (Cal State Northridge) won 37 regular season games in a year that was still the pre-RPI period and also still only a 48 team field. Both bids and regional host sites were largely still being given out based on jersey names, history, and attendance in those days instead of true merit.

If anything, you could say he deserved it instead in 1996, when he won 52 games and the WAC regular season and tourney titles in his first ever year as a HC. At, again, Cal State Northridge.

3. Once they moved to the MWC he made the tourney once in his last 9 seasons which tells me being in the WAC was a huge advantage in making the tourney.

Its certainly a huge advantage in the WAC, but maybe not for the reasons you think. The WAC is a much stronger league than the MWC - which is a 1 bid league every year. So, better win the conference tourney….pretty much. Batesole actually won conference coach of the year in 2016 when his squad won the regular season title….and didn’t make the regionals. So I guess I’d ask you….how many times in 9 years is a “non-bad” coach expected to win his conference tournament in the MWC?

4. He was never hired by anyone else which is wierd. Maybe he loved Fresno. But that doesn’t add up.

It actually adds up just fine. First off, job hopping in college baseball like you see in the other revenue sports is pretty rare anyway. He was / is also a lifetime California guy from birth….basically the Cali college baseball version of Bill Clarke. He wasn’t leaving the state. Might have taken the gig at his alma mater (CSF) if it presented itself. Maybe Stanford or UCLA? But those are the only 3 that maybe would have offered him a step up in his eyes….and those were all stable programs while he was at Fresno anyway.

5. I don’t really care. If you want me to say he is a good coach it doesn’t change my view on Lem. He is just the name that came to mind. At the end of the day Lemonis has done the worst coaching job in college baseball history I dont think anyone can dispute this all things considered.

Drastic overreach. You don’t even have to really think he’s a great or even good coach. I’m simply wondering why you think he’s a BAD coach, which you said he was. There are quite a few tiers between “great/good” and “bad”, That applies to both Batesole and Lem. And I’m standing by my statement that a truly BAD coach has never won a CWS. It would seem that this very self evident truth wouldn’t be so hard for many to swallow.

there are a lot of ways to say this so let me say - if. We could have Justin Haire or Cliff Godwin right now at no charge I think most everyone would make that move.

Well, absolutely no one would make that move right now….in August. And next season is about to play out which will make the answer to that proposition much more clear. But if it truly was a “most everyone would make that move” situation in May, it would have happened at least with Haire….even with the buyout. I’d think we could have gotten him. Godwin is a pipe dream.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Baseball recruiting you have to be on a high school kid in 9th or 10th grade. Hancock, L Tanner, K James, Cumbest were Cohen/Cann recruits. That's 6 out of 9 in the batting lineup in 2021. Lemonis can claim the other 3 Forsyth, Clark, and Dabrule.

Forsythe was actually Cann. Clark was officially Cann but really more Cohen. Dubrule was a portal guy who was all Lem.

 

[BingleCocktail]

 

[8dog]

Why? Honest question.



So winning the national championship at freaking Fresno State isn’t COTY worthy?



Can’t pretend to know the exact reasons, but they (Cal State Northridge) won 37 regular season games in a year that was still the pre-RPI period and also still only a 48 team field. Both bids and regional host sites were largely still being given out based on jersey names, history, and attendance in those days instead of true merit.

If anything, you could say he deserved it instead in 1996, when he won 52 games and the WAC regular season and tourney titles in his first ever year as a HC. At, again, Cal State Northridge.



Its certainly a huge advantage in the WAC, but maybe not for the reasons you think. The WAC is a much stronger league than the MWC - which is a 1 bid league every year. So, better win the conference tourney….pretty much. Batesole actually won conference coach of the year in 2016 when his squad won the regular season title….and didn’t make the regionals. So I guess I’d ask you….how many times in 9 years is a “non-bad” coach expected to win his conference tournament in the MWC?



It actually adds up just fine. First off, job hopping in college baseball like you see in the other revenue sports is pretty rare anyway. He was / is also a lifetime California guy from birth….basically the Cali college baseball version of Bill Clarke. He wasn’t leaving the state. Might have taken the gig at his alma mater (CSF) if it presented itself. Maybe Stanford or UCLA? But those are the only 3 that maybe would have offered him a step up in his eyes….and those were all stable programs while he was at Fresno anyway.



Drastic overreach. You don’t even have to really think he’s a great or even good coach. I’m simply wondering why you think he’s a BAD coach, which you said he was. There are quite a few tiers between “great/good” and “bad”, That applies to both Batesole and Lem. And I’m standing by my statement that a truly BAD coach has never won a CWS. It would seem that this very self evident truth wouldn’t be so hard for many to swallow.



Well, absolutely no one would make that move right now….in August. And next season is about to play out which will make the answer to that proposition much more clear. But if it truly was a “most everyone would make that move” situation in May, it would have happened at least with Haire….even with the buyout. I’d think we could have gotten him. Godwin is a pipe dream.

Collegiate Baseball is one guy writing a newsletter. Never pay attention to anything they say. Again. I dont care about Batesole. A good coach will never do to State baseball what Lemonis has done. Plain and simple.

 

[paindonthurt]

Sure

1. Collegiate Baseball is a joke. I have actually posted that before.
2. He got COY in 08 bc they won the title which is just standard lazy “journalism”. He got it in 1998 bc….I literally Have no idea. His team didn’t even make the tourney.
3. Once they moved to the MWC he made the tourney once in his last 9 seasons which tells me being in the WAC was a huge advantage in making the tourney.
4. He was never hired by anyone else which is wierd. Maybe he loved Fresno. But that doesn’t add up.
5. I don’t really care. If you want me to say he is a good coach it doesn’t change my view on Lem. He is just the name that came to mind. At the end of the day Lemonis has done the worst coaching job in college baseball history I dont think anyone can dispute this all things considered.

there are a lot of ways to say this so let me say - if. We could have Justin Haire or Cliff Godwin right now at no charge I think most everyone would make that move.

This is disputable especially when you consider ALL things.

You’re mad at Lemonis for 2022 and 2023. You’re emotional like a woman. Don’t be like an emotional woman.

 

[She Mate Me]

I think I'm going to start another thread so we can further discuss whether Chris Lemonis is a good coach or a bad coach.

It feels like a subject that just has not gotten enough attention from this group.

I'm sure many of us will change our position on the matter.

 

[MSUDOG24]

I think I'm going to start another thread so we can further discuss whether Chris Lemonis is a good coach or a bad coach.

It feels like a subject that just has not gotten enough attention from this group.

I'm sure many of us will change our position on the matter.

Impressive stamina in this thread for sure and w/o anything political to boot.

 

[She Mate Me]

Impressive stamina in this thread for sure and w/o anything political to boot.

Stamina is a word for it.

There are others...

 

[Seinfeld]

I just wish people trashing Lemonis would just shut their mouth when we are chasing guys in the portal and going against programs like LSU. If Holman read this board I'm sure it didn't help when comparing what he's reading with everyone all in with JJ on the LSU board. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. Then we want to trash Lemonis when he doesn't pull a guy that we are competing with other top programs to get. As usual we have a certain segment that hope we are bad again next year so we can cycle in ANOTHER HC.

I’m not trashing Lemonis for not landing Holman. I’m trashing Lemonis for putting us in a position where we needed a guy like Holman in order to climb out of the SEC cellar