Welp. Even if ACC stays put for now, appears the dissension is there.....

[OG Goat Holder]

Looks like any school leaving the conference is SOL for money until 2036.

Sounds to me like the ACC truly needs to find a way to make itself viable, else they are going to just waste a decade.

Why not get innovative? Pitch Clemson, FSU and a few others on football success with Notre Dame, and maybe add UConn and West Virginia to the mix and prioritize basketball? Plenty of money to be made there.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I'm confused as to what happens with the TV deal if it's locked in for that long. Does the ACC have some sort of out if it dissolves?

If ESPN has a sweetheart deal with the ACC TV deal, then there is zero incentive for them to pay anything to add to the SEC. Surely ESPN has a contract that protects its interests and the Big10 TV partners won't be able/willing to pay enough to offset any termination costs?

I think every contract the ACC holds would become void if the conference dissolves. If there is no ACC then nobody controls anything except individual schools. That’s all the ACC is, a coalition acting and operating in the combined self-interest of 14 member institutions. The TV deal is voided, just as it would be voided under any number of other scenarios such as expansion or teams actually completing the ridiculous process of leaving the ACC.

Then either a new conference would be made of remaining members plus / minus some other teams, could be the same teams remaking and renaming the exact same league just to get a new TV deal, or it could be that everyone goes their separate ways.

 

[Dawgg]

They can 100% get out of the GOR if a majority of members (8 total) vote to dissolve the conference. With 7 currently wanting out, it's only a matter of time before 1 more jumps aboard and that'll be the end of the ACC.

Neither the SEC nor the Big Ten will touch any of those teams until the lengthy and bitter legal fight that stems from an ACC dissolution ends.

For example, the Big Ten has effectively cut ties with ESPN as part of their new media contract. There is no way they're going to pick up Virginia and Virginia Tech if there's an outside chance that ESPN could successfully litigate their way into a piece of Big Ten football at ACC prices for the next 10 years.

 

[Dawgg]

Sounds to me like the ACC truly needs to find a way to make itself viable, else they are going to just waste a decade.

Why not get innovative? Pitch Clemson, FSU and a few others on football success with Notre Dame, and maybe add UConn and West Virginia to the mix and prioritize basketball? Plenty of money to be made there.

UConn, I agree with, but outside of a better fit geographically, why would West Virginia move to the ACC when the big names of the ACC are actively trying to leave and/or sabotage the conference?

The ACC payout is slightly above the Big 12 as of right now, but it's locked in for 5 years longer and is currently a much better candidate for contraction than expansion.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Neither the SEC nor the Big Ten will touch any of those teams until the lengthy and bitter legal fight that stems from an ACC dissolution ends.

For example, the Big Ten has effectively cut ties with ESPN as part of their new media contract. There is no way they're going to pick up Virginia and Virginia Tech if there's an outside chance that ESPN could successfully litigate their way into a piece of Big Ten football at ACC prices for the next 10 years.

Who is ESPN going to litigate against? ESPN isn’t a part of the GOR. That’s an agreement between the league and the schools. If no league exists, ESPN is just going to sue every individual school? Even the ones that didn’t vote to dissolve who went elsewhere? On what grounds?

Contracts get voided all the time when one of two (or more) entities who agreed to the contract ceases to exist. This is no different and I don’t know that ESPN has a leg to stand on with litigation.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

UConn, I agree with, but outside of a better fit geographically, why would West Virginia move to the ACC when the big names of the ACC are actively trying to leave and/or sabotage the conference?

The ACC payout is slightly above the Big 12 as of right now, but it's locked in for 5 years longer and is currently a much better candidate for contraction than expansion.

Well that's kind of my point. My suggestion assumes that the ACC stops the sabotage and gets their act together.

If the ACC was stable, guaranteed that West Virginia would rather play sports there rather than the watered down Big 12. Not to mention the travel.

 

[johnson86-1]

I think every contract the ACC holds would become void if the conference dissolves. If there is no ACC then nobody controls anything except individual schools. That’s all the ACC is, a coalition acting and operating in the combined self-interest of 14 member institutions. The TV deal is voided, just as it would be voided under any number of other scenarios such as expansion or teams actually completing the ridiculous process of leaving the ACC.

Then either a new conference would be made of remaining members plus / minus some other teams, could be the same teams remaking and renaming the exact same league just to get a new TV deal, or it could be that everyone goes their separate ways.

I would just be surprised if the SEC lawyers left themselves exposed on that one. Presumably the ACC is some sort of registered legal entity. Legal entities don't typically just get to dissolve and void their contracts. If they go bankrupt, the bankruptcy contract deals with contracts and assets and if they dissolve, there is an unwinding process that requires notice to creditors among other things, and the assets of the LLC aren't released until the windup process is completed, which means any GOR the conference held would still be there for ESPN to go after.

But maybe that's standard practice for conferences to include that type of language in their contracts and ESPN let it be put in there because they just didn't think it was a realistic possibility at the time.

 

[Dawgg]

Well that's kind of my point. My suggestion assumes that the ACC stops the sabotage and gets their act together.

If the ACC was stable, guaranteed that West Virginia would rather play sports there rather than the watered down Big 12. Not to mention the travel.

Ok, fair enough. I tend to agree.... IF the ACC were stable, that would be a better spot for WV.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I would just be surprised if the SEC lawyers left themselves exposed on that one. Presumably the ACC is some sort of registered legal entity. Legal entities don't typically just get to dissolve and void their contracts. If they go bankrupt, the bankruptcy contract deals with contracts and assets and if they dissolve, there is an unwinding process that requires notice to creditors among other things, and the assets of the LLC aren't released until the windup process is completed, which means any GOR the conference held would still be there for ESPN to go after.

But maybe that's standard practice for conferences to include that type of language in their contracts and ESPN let it be put in there because they just didn't think it was a realistic possibility at the time.

Well the GOR doesn’t hold anything of value to ESPN. Once the money is paid out each year, its gone. Its not like ESPN gave them all the money on the front end and its just sitting in an account and getting gradually smaller each year. They could go after whatever trace amounts of operating expenses the conference was utilizing, I suppose. But that’s a drop in the bucket.

Regarding the SEC, it’s a totally different contract structure because nobody is leaving the SEC and there is especially not going to be a dissolution anytime in the near future. There is no grant of rights. The schools have a lot more control and thus no incentive to disband. But I’m sure the appropriate language is still in the deal to protect individual members if it were to occur.

 

[johnson86-1]

Well the GOR doesn’t hold anything of value to ESPN. Once the money is paid out each year, its gone. Its not like ESPN gave them all the money on the front end and its just sitting in an account and getting gradually smaller each year. They could go after whatever trace amounts of operating expenses the conference was utilizing, I suppose. But that’s a drop in the bucket.

Regarding the SEC, it’s a totally different contract structure because nobody is leaving the SEC and there is especially not going to be a dissolution anytime in the near future. There is no grant of rights. The schools have a lot more control and thus no incentive to disband. But I’m sure the appropriate language is still in the deal to protect individual members if it were to occur.

??? Isn't the GOR the media rights of the ACC member schools? That's a pretty valuable asset. That's what ESPN and Fox/CBS/NBC pay for. And ESPN basically has the rights to any of them that are valuable enough to air on TV. It seems like any money paid for those rights going forward would be available to pay damages to ESPN unless they really left a free out for the conference.

 

[Dawgg]

Who is ESPN going to litigate against? ESPN isn’t a part of the GOR. That’s an agreement between the league and the schools. If no league exists, ESPN is just going to sue every individual school? Even the ones that didn’t vote to dissolve who went elsewhere? On what grounds?

Contracts get voided all the time when one of two (or more) entities who agreed to the contract ceases to exist. This is no different and I don’t know that ESPN has a leg to stand on with litigation.

I'm no lawyer personally and whether ESPN (and/or any individual member institution) has a leg to stand on is irrelevant. I think the spectre of litigation and the fact that it could stretch across multiple seasons would be enough to keep the SEC and Big Ten away. I feel like you think half the ACC can just douse the place in gasoline and light a match on the way out, but I don't think it's going to work out that way.

Who in the ACC is 'worth it' for the SEC or Big Ten to risk being unable to have full grant of rights for a few years while things get sorted out? Maybe FSU and Clemson? Maybe?

 

[Dawgg]

??? Isn't the GOR the media rights of the ACC member schools? That's a pretty valuable asset. That's what ESPN and Fox/CBS/NBC pay for. And ESPN basically has the rights to any of them that are valuable enough to air on TV. It seems like any money paid for those rights going forward would be available to pay damages to ESPN unless they really left a free out for the conference.

Yes, that is correct. They're negotiated at the conference level, but ultimately, each individual school's media rights are being purchased.

That is why OU and Texas couldn't just walk away from the Big 12 without a hefty payout. Fox owned a portion of their home games and had to be 'made whole' before OU and Texas could walk away. The SEC wasn't about to let OU and Texas walk in without being able to make money on their home games.

 

[Dawgg]

There is no grant of rights.

That is completely incorrect. Every individual member institution grants their rights to the SEC, who in turn, negotiates the sale of those rights to media partners.

Mississippi State owns its own media rights, but has granted the SEC the power to sell those rights on their behalf as part of its membership in the Southeastern Conference. For example... Mississippi State can go out and sell the media rights to frisbee golf to whomever is willing to pay UNLESS the SEC has an agreement in place with a media partner for frisbee golf, in which case, Mississippi State has granted their frisbee golf media rights over to the SEC and is bound by the conference level agreement.


It's in SEC Bylaw 22.1:

22.1 MEDIA AND RELATED AGREEMENTS *22.1.1 Conference Agreements Govern. Each member shall include provisions in each of its television, media, internet and digital rights agreements specifying that the member’s agreements are subject and subordinate to all past, present, and future television, media, internet and digital rights agreements to which the Conference is or becomes a party, and further specifying that if any provision in the member’s agreement is inconsistent or conflicts with any Conference agreement, the Conference agreement shall supersede the provision in the member’s agreement, such that the superseded provision shall be of no effect to the extent of any such inconsistency or conflict. [Clarified 6/1/11, Revised; 1/14/21] *
22.1.2 Games and Telecasts. Each member must fully conform to and comply with all current broadcast guidelines and broadcast agreements of the Conference. [Moved and Clarified 6/1/11, Revised; 1/14/21]
*22.1.3 Football Video. No member of the Conference shall make video recordings of football teams of other members except in games in which the member’s team is participating. [Moved and Clarified 6/1/11, Revised; 1/14/21]

 

[Perd Hapley]

??? Isn't the GOR the media rights of the ACC member schools? That's a pretty valuable asset. That's what ESPN and Fox/CBS/NBC pay for. And ESPN basically has the rights to any of them that are valuable enough to air on TV. It seems like any money paid for those rights going forward would be available to pay damages to ESPN unless they really left a free out for the conference.

Those rights are lent by the individual schools to the ACC. The league does not own them, they control them. The ACC is obligated to exclusively use ESPN and no other TV carrier, per their agreement with ESPN. In exchange, ESPN pays the ACC. The ACC then pays the schools. Two separate agreements. If the ACC were to disappear, those media rights don’t just default over to ESPN. They should go back to the individual schools. Individual schools do not have any direct agreement with ESPN if the league disappears. Likewise, ESPN would no longer be liable for any future payments due to the ACC or the schools for the remainder of the contract period. There are no damages.

And its not a “free out” for the conference. A conference dissolution is a pretty major deal, one that very few saw as being a real possibility for a league with the history and stability of the ACC.

 

[Perd Hapley]

That is completely incorrect. Every individual member institution grants their rights to the SEC, who in turn, negotiates the sale of those rights to media partners.

Mississippi State owns its own media rights, but has granted the SEC the power to sell those rights on their behalf as part of its membership in the Southeastern Conference. For example... Mississippi State can go out and sell the media rights to frisbee golf to whomever is willing to pay UNLESS the SEC has an agreement in place with a media partner for frisbee golf, in which case, Mississippi State has granted their frisbee golf media rights over to the SEC and is bound by the conference level agreement.


It's in SEC Bylaw 22.1:

22.1 MEDIA AND RELATED AGREEMENTS *22.1.1 Conference Agreements Govern. Each member shall include provisions in each of its television, media, internet and digital rights agreements specifying that the member’s agreements are subject and subordinate to all past, present, and future television, media, internet and digital rights agreements to which the Conference is or becomes a party, and further specifying that if any provision in the member’s agreement is inconsistent or conflicts with any Conference agreement, the Conference agreement shall supersede the provision in the member’s agreement, such that the superseded provision shall be of no effect to the extent of any such inconsistency or conflict. [Clarified 6/1/11, Revised; 1/14/21] *
22.1.2 Games and Telecasts. Each member must fully conform to and comply with all current broadcast guidelines and broadcast agreements of the Conference. [Moved and Clarified 6/1/11, Revised; 1/14/21]
*22.1.3 Football Video. No member of the Conference shall make video recordings of football teams of other members except in games in which the member’s team is participating. [Moved and Clarified 6/1/11, Revised; 1/14/21]

I would clarify that the SEC’s grant of rights structure does not match that of the ACC. There is a grant of rights but schools aren’t held captive to the extent that the ACC teams are. Incorrect legalese on my behalf.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I feel like you think half the ACC can just douse the place in gasoline and light a match on the way out, but I don't think it's going to work out that way.

I don’t think it’s going to be “half the league” doing anything. Literally every single league member could get an immediately better revenue windfall, today, in any one of three different conferences if the ACC ceased to exist. And just about every single one would get an invite from one of the three. Maybe not Wake Forest….but that would be it. That’s a horrible position for the league as a whole to be in. It only took 2 months for FSU to get six other schools on board with their discontent with the current ACC TV deal. What’s going to happen in the next 2-3 months leading up to football season? You simply can’t have a league of 14 unhappy members and expect it to last very long.

Who in the ACC is 'worth it' for the SEC or Big Ten to risk being unable to have full grant of rights for a few years while things get sorted out? Maybe FSU and Clemson? Maybe?

Wrong question. Better questions are what ACC team can’t get a better deal for themselves elsewhere? And an even better question…..how much does ESPN want to risk losing an FSU, Miami, Clemson, UNC, UVA, etc. to Fox / NBC when they could actually be proactive and either present a more lucrative deal to the ACC to keep control of them….or guide the big names they want to keep to the SEC and play nice with any conference dissolution?

 

[johnson86-1]

Those rights are lent by the individual schools to the ACC. The league does not own them, they control them. The ACC is obligated to exclusively use ESPN and no other TV carrier, per their agreement with ESPN. In exchange, ESPN pays the ACC. The ACC then pays the schools. Two separate agreements. If the ACC were to disappear, those media rights don’t just default over to ESPN. They should go back to the individual schools. Individual schools do not have any direct agreement with ESPN if the league disappears. Likewise, ESPN would no longer be liable for any future payments due to the ACC or the schools for the remainder of the contract period. There are no damages.

And its not a “free out” for the conference. A conference dissolution is a pretty major deal, one that very few saw as being a real possibility for a league with the history and stability of the ACC.

There are damages. ESPN expected to get broadcast rights that it no longer has. Those damages are offset by the amount of money they don't have to pay now but unless ESPN was paying above market prices at the time of the breach, that won't offset them to zero.

And it's certainly possible ESPN committed to pay a lot of money for media rights that the conference didn't have full control over, but I am just skeptical they did. As you said, conference dissolution is a pretty big deal so maybe the lawyers didn't think it was worth addressing, but if that's the case, I can guarantee you those lawyers now are regretting that oversight now and praying that they don't find an 8th vote.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Ok, fair enough. I tend to agree.... IF the ACC were stable, that would be a better spot for WV.

The question I have - is if it's even possible.

Is there any strategic thinking, marketing, or planning, that could make the ACC something formidable. They don't have to rival the SEC or B1G, but just something that could entice its members to stay. Of course, this is likely all about TV payouts, it's generally that simple with this stuff. Short term money grabs.

Maybe they could do a 1A and 1B division. 1A is the Magnificent 7 or whatever, plus one more. Probably Syracuse or Georgia Tech. Those teams all play Notre Dame.

Or come up with some super basketball package. Just spit-balling. But there just doesn't seem to be a very good option for the ACC teams right now that are serious about doing something (or money, whichever).

 

[Dawgg]

I don’t think it’s going to be “half the league” doing anything. Literally every single league member could get an immediately better revenue windfall, today, in any one of three different conferences if the ACC ceased to exist. And just about every single one would get an invite from one of the three. Maybe not Wake Forest….but that would be it. That’s a horrible position for the league as a whole to be in. It only took 2 months for FSU to get six other schools on board with their discontent with the current ACC TV deal. What’s going to happen in the next 2-3 months leading up to football season? You simply can’t have a league of 14 unhappy members and expect it to last very long.



Wrong question. Better questions are what ACC team can’t get a better deal for themselves elsewhere? And an even better question…..how much does ESPN want to risk losing an FSU, Miami, Clemson, UNC, UVA, etc. to Fox / NBC when they could actually be proactive and either present a more lucrative deal to the ACC to keep control of them….or guide the big names they want to keep to the SEC and play nice with any conference dissolution?

Ok, then let's play that out. I assume the 3 conferences are the SEC, Big Ten, and Big 12.

The Big 12 does have a pro rata agreement in place in the ESPN side of the contract that increases their total revenue for any current Power 5 team added, but that only guarantees that their individual revenues won't go down with the additional team... and that's only on the ESPN side of the contract. The Fox side, to my knowledge, doesn't have that provision, so any new team could result in a net loss for the Big 12 if Fox isn't willing to pony up. Even with that provision, the current ACC contract is about the same as the new Big 12 contract, so the Big 12 is not going to be the source of the windfall.

So that leaves the Big Ten and the SEC.

I'll concede Florida State, Clemson, and maybe Miami are potentially 'prizes', but the Big Ten is AAU only (with the exception of Nebraska, who was AAU when they joined) and none of those are, so that leaves the SEC as their primary suitor, but I'm not sure the SEC would want both Florida teams. I think FSU would actually get the nod over Miami.

Then you have 4 or 5 more that could potentially add value, but I don't necessarily see any of them as teams that move the needle.

So, find a home for these guys and tell me that Fox and/or ESPN is going to shell out between $70 and $80 million per year for their inventory of home games. I'll even highlight the ones that are AAU:

Florida State
Clemson
Miami
North Carolina (AAU)
Virginia (AAU)
Virginia Tech
NC State
Georgia Tech (AAU)
Boston College
Pitt (AAU)
Wake Forest
Louisville
Syracuse
Duke (AAU)

 

[Dawgg]

The question I have - is if it's even possible.

Is there any strategic thinking, marketing, or planning, that could make the ACC something formidable. They don't have to rival the SEC or B1G, but just something that could entice its members to stay. Of course, this is likely all about TV payouts, it's generally that simple with this stuff. Short term money grabs.

Maybe they could do a 1A and 1B division. 1A is the Magnificent 7 or whatever, plus one more. Probably Syracuse or Georgia Tech. Those teams all play Notre Dame.

Or come up with some super basketball package. Just spit-balling. But there just doesn't seem to be a very good option for the ACC teams right now that are serious about doing something (or money, whichever).

I think it's the money. If they were able to get ESPN back to the table and become the richest of the 'middle 3', then I think everybody is back to being best friends (until the contract ends, then there will be a bitter divorce). For a team like FSU or Clemson to have about the same payout as UCF and Cincinnati has to be a pretty big ego bruise.

I think the only disruptor is a possible merger with the remnants of the Pac. If the four corner schools end up with the Big 12 and Washington & Oregon bolt for the Big Ten, then that leaves Oregon State, Washington State, Stanford, and Cal twisting in the wind a little bit. If they could negotiate a deal with ESPN that significantly increases their per-team revenue if they added those 4 and maybe a couple of AAC or Mountain West mid-majors along the way, that could keep them together a little longer. A 20 team coast to coast conference could be an appealing package for ESPN (and future media partners).

 

[Perd Hapley]

Ok, then let's play that out. I assume the 3 conferences are the SEC, Big Ten, and Big 12.

The Big 12 does have a pro rata agreement in place in the ESPN side of the contract that increases their total revenue for any current Power 5 team added, but that only guarantees that their individual revenues won't go down with the additional team... and that's only on the ESPN side of the contract. The Fox side, to my knowledge, doesn't have that provision, so any new team could result in a net loss for the Big 12 if Fox isn't willing to pony up. Even with that provision, the current ACC contract is about the same as the new Big 12 contract, so the Big 12 is not going to be the source of the windfall.

So that leaves the Big Ten and the SEC.

I'll concede Florida State, Clemson, and maybe Miami are potentially 'prizes', but the Big Ten is AAU only (with the exception of Nebraska, who was AAU when they joined) and none of those are, so that leaves the SEC as their primary suitor, but I'm not sure the SEC would want both Florida teams. I think FSU would actually get the nod over Miami.

Then you have 4 or 5 more that could potentially add value, but I don't necessarily see any of them as teams that move the needle.

So, find a home for these guys and tell me that Fox and/or ESPN is going to shell out between $70 and $80 million per year for their inventory of home games. I'll even highlight the ones that are AAU:

Florida State
Clemson
Miami
North Carolina (AAU)
Virginia (AAU)
Virginia Tech
NC State
Georgia Tech (AAU)
Boston College
Pitt (AAU)
Wake Forest
Louisville
Syracuse
Duke (AAU)

There are a few faulty assumptions here, but I’ll play. First off, the Big 12 is certainly going to increase payouts with just about any ACC team (or more accurately, pair of teams or group of teams). The network contract language you mention are just standard protections they have built in to keep conferences from adding marginal teams for the sole purpose of frequent renegotiating leverage. The SEC deal with ESPN had the exact same provisions at the time of the Texas / OU additions, too. But you can bet your *** we are all getting more money when they jump in. The networks will re-up for any added teams that are a net positive. They always do.

Also keep in mind, this is a dissolved conference scenario with 14 teams virtually up for grabs. You’re not going to find any set of 2 to 4 teams from the ACC that don’t bring in substantially more average viewers than schools like UCF, Cincinnati, Houston, Iowa State, Texas Tech, BYU, and Kansas State. That’s over half the league. A third of the league is located in a single state, with none of the 4 teams in that state having any sort of national following. They are a league in desperate need of expansion to heavily populated areas with name brand teams. So I’m not willing to concede at all that the Big 12 doesn’t boost the payout of any existing ACC team (save for maybe Wake Forest).

Moving forward to the Big 10 / AAU thing, it’s really hard to see the Big 10 willfully shutting themselves out of the entire lucrative Florida market due to the AAU deal. Would be incredibly foolish….especially considering that they already have a non-AAU member in a remote location who doesn’t bring much to the table. It could be argued that it would be similarly foolish to shun Clemson for the same reason, but I could understand that one a tad better. Boston College also brings them into the NE market and gives them a monopoly there, but the AAU thing could be a deal breaker there. All the rest of their targets would certainly be the AAU schools.

The way I see it:

FSU and Miami could each potentially name their destination, but couldn’t go to the same league.

Big 10 would prioritize UVA, Ga Tech, UNC, and should definitely take Miami or FSU if they can get over the AAU thing. Might take Clemson or Duke depending how how the dominoes fell above. Syracuse, Pitt, and BC could be break glass in case of emergency options, but not very likely.

SEC would prioritize FSU above all. Take Miami if somehow FSU went to the B1G. Then priorities 2A, 2B, and 2C are whoever they could get in the following: one out of UVA / Va Tech, one out of UNC / NC State, and Clemson. Duke is break glass in case of emergency option - probably only happens if they are a package with UNC.

Big 12 would be tremendous fit for Pitt, Syracuse, BC, and Louisville. Could be landing spot for NC State or Duke if one or both were somehow shunned by both of Big 2 leagues, which I doubt would happen. Possible fit for Wake Forest if they strike out on all the other NC schools. Every team on that list except WF brings way more to the table than every single one of the 4 teams they just added (UH, BYU, Cincy, UCF), so you are looking at a net positive to the Big 12 contract for all teams with any combo of those additions….no question.

ETA: the “everyone gets most of what they want” option….

B1G adds UNC, Duke, Ga Tech, UVA

SEC adds FSU, Clemson, VA Tech, NC State

Miami goes to B1G if they get off their AAU high horse, SEC if B1G somehow lands FSU, Big 12 if neither happens.

Big 12 gets Pitt, BC, Cuse, Louisville

Wake goes maybe to the Big 12 if they miss out on westward options like the 4 corners schools, and also miss on NC State / Duke, or to the AAC if they don’t.