What has changed for Michigan?

[blion72]

in the last two years they seem to have gone to a status where people feel we are never going to beat them. we historically have split with them and some time pounded them. many times when we lost big in AA,, we had key injuries including QB. What suddenly changed?

three years ago there were people in the UM crowd wanting Harbaugh replaced.

 

[jp3272]

Michigan suspended Harbaugh

 

[Ludd]

in the last two years they seem to have gone to a status where people feel we are never going to beat them. we historically have split with them and some time pounded them. many times when we lost big in AA,, we had key injuries including QB. What suddenly changed?

three years ago there were people in the UM crowd wanting Harbaugh replaced.

They finally beat OSU.

 

[Alphalion75]

They finally beat OSU.

Bingo! They not only beat them....they humiliated them.

 

[BobPSU92]

They finally beat OSU.

Exactly. This thread can be closed.

 

[leinbacker]

Better coordinators

 

[blion72]

Bingo! They not only beat them....they humiliated them.

the beat CJ Stroud OSU. for the first time since the Tressel/Urban/Day era, they faced an OSU team that did NOT have a QB who could beast them with the run. Stroud was not a run threat, although somehow he became a runner vs Georgia. The OSU that played UGA might have beaten UMich.

 

[CyphaPSU]

If you look at team talent composite, we have been very even with Michigan for several years now. They are not on a different talent level than PSU, and that relative evenness had been mirrored in the head-to-head records up until the past two seasons.

The recent difference, I believe, is that Michigan and Harbaugh have been able to find their identity on offense and really cultivate it. They have been able to recruit talented players who also fit that identity well. They have also been able to coach up those players to the point where they execute very effectively.

Under Franklin, Penn State certainly has an identity it wants on offense (one that differs from Michigan’s substantially), but I don’t know if PSU been able to quite find its way to truly cultivating it at the same level. Perhaps it’s due to a recruiting hole at a position or two, or it’s been a guy or two not developing as quickly as hoped for, but I don’t see us executing on offense quite to the same level of consistency as Michigan does.

But, in the end, we have enough to beat Michigan. The question comes down to how well can our offense execute blocking on the first and second levels, running routes, being on the same page and throwing accurately, etc. (which is a no-duh, but these are areas of growth that need to happen). But, Michigan is not some sort of giant we cannot compete with (as some in the media tend to make them out to be), but they play within themselves and are really, really good at it.

 

[Midnighter]

If you look at team talent composite, we have been very even with Michigan for several years now. They are not on a different talent level than PSU, and that relative evenness had been mirrored in the head-to-head records up until the past two seasons.

The recent difference, I believe, is that Michigan and Harbaugh have been able to find their identity on offense and really cultivate it. They have been able to recruit talented players who also fit that identity well. They have also been able to coach up those players to the point where they execute very effectively.

Under Franklin, Penn State certainly has an identity it wants on offense (one that differs from Michigan’s substantially), but I don’t know if PSU been able to quite find its way to truly cultivating it at the same level. Perhaps it’s due to a recruiting hole at a position or two, or it’s been a guy or two not developing as quickly as hoped for, but I don’t see us executing on offense quite to the same level of consistency as Michigan does.

But, in the end, we have enough to beat Michigan. The question comes down to how well can our offense execute blocking on the first and second levels, running routes, being on the same page and throwing accurately, etc. (which is a no-duh, but these are areas of growth that need to happen). But, Michigan is not some sort of giant we cannot compete with (as some in the media tend to make them out to be), but they play within themselves and are really, really good at it.

I agree but will add Michigan has done a great job recruiting elite players on the DL and we haven’t. Harbaugh is also a better GameDay coach than Franklin and knows how to exploit weaknesses.

 

[CDLionFL]

They got away from the Don Brown defense.

(just getting this ready for when we face him in 2 weeks)

 

[CyphaPSU]

I agree but will add Michigan has done a great job recruiting elite players on the DL and we haven’t. Harbaugh is also a better GameDay coach than Franklin and knows how to exploit weaknesses.

Agreed, and that is one of the spots I have in mind (especially DT) when thinking about a couple of recruiting holes we have.

 

[WestSideLion]

I agree but will add Michigan has done a great job recruiting elite players on the DL and we haven’t. Harbaugh is also a better GameDay coach than Franklin and knows how to exploit weaknesses.

Much better head coach and staff. That’s the difference.

 

[LaJollaCreek]

in the last two years they seem to have gone to a status where people feel we are never going to beat them. we historically have split with them and some time pounded them. many times when we lost big in AA,, we had key injuries including QB. What suddenly changed?

three years ago there were people in the UM crowd wanting Harbaugh replaced.

Better line play on both sides where UM lacked for years. I laugh at people now considering him a genius when 3 years ago the UM faithful wanted him out. Fans are fickle....he's had better line play and better skill talent. They still have better line play, but last year this genius that people now have on a pedestal tried to become a passing team against UGa instead of sticking to his teams identity and it cost his team a MNC. He's a good coach, but it's odd how many PSU fans now have him on a pedestal as it took him years to do anything. PSU is light up the middle on D and it will be their Achilles heel until it's addressed.

 

[ManxomeLion]

Much better head coach and staff. That’s the difference.

I get the feeling that Franklin has closed that gap. I think this may be Franklin's best set of coordinators and he also has the additional analysts he didn't have previously. Previously outmatched in talent, especially the along the lines, his focus was explosive plays and 50/50 balls to give the team a chance to stay in the game. Seems like there still may be a disparity in talent/depth along the lines, or at least along the offensive line (and perhaps size in the interior line of the defense) but the gap is closing. By narrowing the talent/depth gap and the upgrades on the coaching staff, I'm hoping to see more parity between the top 3. We'll be finding out soon enough, though the overall trend may take a few seasons to see. (which may also depend on how long Harbaugh sticks around, or for that matter Manny Diaz)

 

[Madsol]

Much better head coach and staff. That’s the difference.

But Harbaugh was the head coach when we beat them in 2020 when we were 0-5 and they were about ready to run him out of town on a rail. I don't know about their staff changes since that season but what has changed with Harbaugh to account for the dramatic turnaround?

 

[WestSideLion]

But Harbaugh was the head coach when we beat them in 2020 when we were 0-5 and they were about ready to run him out of town on a rail. I don't know about their staff changes since that season but what has changed with Harbaugh to account for the dramatic turnaround?

Three differences:

• Harbaugh is an NFL coach with X’s and O’s Pedigree and a proven track record of innovating.
• Harbaugh openly admitted UM staff needed major changes and he made them quite successfully.
• UM spends top $ on assistant coaches. PSU isn’t cheap, but staff salaries have been a point of contention for Franklin. It’s not a coincidence that getting more $ and hiring Diaz happened just as the program took a step back to top 10 recruiting and rankings.
  

 

[Madsol]

Three differences:

• Harbaugh is an NFL coach with X’s and O’s Pedigree and a proven track record of innovating.
• Harbaugh openly admitted UM staff needed major changes and he made them quite successfully.
• UM spends top $ on assistant coaches. PSU isn’t cheap, but staff salaries have been a point of contention for Franklin. It’s not a coincidence that getting more $ and hiring Diaz happened just as the program took a step back to top 10 recruiting and rankings.

I agree with you second and third points. The first one, I'm not so sure about. Why did it take him 7 years at Michigan and the threat of being fired before he innovated? I really respect what Michigan has done the last 2 seasons. Especially where they were at the end of the 2020 season. But there's just something about Harbaugh that doesn't add up for me. But it's hard to argue with his results of late.

 

[Bison13]

Nothing. They’re still dick bags

 

[bdgan]

Bingo! They not only beat them....they humiliated them.

and us.

 

[bdgan]

in the last two years they seem to have gone to a status where people feel we are never going to beat them. we historically have split with them and some time pounded them. many times when we lost big in AA,, we had key injuries including QB. What suddenly changed?

three years ago there were people in the UM crowd wanting Harbaugh replaced.

They got rid of Don Brown.

But seriously, I think they did a great job recruiting and developing OL and they have a highly rated QB who is a year ahead of Allar wrt experience. Their entire OL are seniors or graduate students, two which they picked up in the portal. They lose a lot of players after this year so it will be interesting to see what they have next year.

 

[WestSideLion]

I agree with you second and third points. The first one, I'm not so sure about. Why did it take him 7 years at Michigan and the threat of being fired before he innovated? I really respect what Michigan has done the last 2 seasons. Especially where they were at the end of the 2020 season. But there's just something about Harbaugh that doesn't add up for me. But it's hard to argue with his results of late.

This is all opinion. Haha.

 

[TheTwistedFrog]

Michigan, for better or worse, knows exactly who they are under Coach Harbaugh. They recruit to it and they coach to it. They have a staff that has a unified vision of what they want to be and how they want to play. More importantly, the players have bought into that vision 100%.

They also have two superstar recruiters in Sherrone Moore and Steve Clinkscale. A huge part of their success has been on the backs of those two coaches.

With that being said, they're also getting glazed by the media on a scale that I don't really remember seeing in 30 something years of watching college football.

 

[PSU87]

Michigan, for better or worse, knows exactly who they are under Coach Harbaugh. They recruit to it and they coach to it. They have a staff that has a unified vision of what they want to be and how they want to play. More importantly, the players have bought into that vision 100%.

They also have two superstar recruiters in Sherrone Moore and Steve Clinkscale. A huge part of their success has been on the backs of those two coaches.

With that being said, they're also getting glazed by the media on a scale that I don't really remember seeing in 30 something years of watching college football.

I'm interpreting "glazed by the media" as being fawned over by the media over and above their actual accomplishments.

If so.....Notre Dame says hi.

 

[TheTwistedFrog]

I'm interpreting "glazed by the media" as being fawned over by the media over and above their actual accomplishments.

If so.....Notre Dame says hi.

Funny you should mention them. Yes, the media is always jock riding Notre Dame. But this season they’re pretty much where they should be.

They were the better team against Ohio State and they overcame the hangover of losing to the Buckeyes and beat a better than you’d think Duke team on the road.

We’re going to know everything we need to know about the Irish when they play USC in their house. If the Trojans swamp them, then it’s another season of Notre Dame being overrated. If they beat them, than we know how good they really are.

 

[NewEra 2014]

Funny you should mention them. Yes, the media is always jock riding Notre Dame. But this season they’re pretty much where they should be.

They were the better team against Ohio State and they overcame the hangover of losing to the Buckeyes and beat a better than you’d think Duke team on the road.

We’re going to know everything we need to know about the Irish when they play USC in their house. If the Trojans swamp them, then it’s another season of Notre Dame being overrated. If they beat them, than we know how good they really are.

Regarding USC, I saw Caleb Williams play in person last weekend. To be honest, I don't think this guy is all that good. USC had an advantage at nearly every position, which they won't necessarily have against ND. I expect Caleb will get exposed in the NFL, just like nearly all of the USC QB's before him. Things won't be so easy for him when he is playing teams with similar talent.

 

[TheTwistedFrog]

Regarding USC, I saw Caleb Williams play in person last weekend. To be honest, I don't think this guy is all that good. USC had an advantage at nearly every position, which they won't necessarily have against ND. I expect Caleb will get exposed in the NFL, just like nearly all of the USC QB's before him. Things won't be so easy for him when he is playing teams with similar talent.

Like 90% of NFL QBs, he’ll need a system that highlights his strengths and hides his weaknesses.

His decision making is going to need some work as he hangs onto the ball too long looking for the big play. That only works when you’re the size of a Cam Newton.

I think with the right OC and HC, he can be a version of Patrick Mahomes.

 

[SoCalLion]

PSU's reputation for the entirety of the 2010s (U-M and Wisconsin also had this reputation for the entirety of the 2010s): a very good B1G team, but one that can't regularly beat the "top dog" of the conference.

Well, 2 straight wins U-M over OSU have made them the "new top dog" in the conference.

The problem is, we still haven't proven we can regularly beat the now "old top dog."

 

[NewEra 2014]

Like 90% of NFL QBs, he’ll need a system that highlights his strengths and hides his weaknesses.

His decision making is going to need some work as he hangs onto the ball too long looking for the big play. That only works when you’re the size of a Cam Newton.

I think with the right OC and HC, he can be a version of Patrick Mahomes.

That's what I saw from him--he hangs on to the ball too long, which works fine when you have superior athletes blocking for you and giving you ample time to throw. But he is not nearly as athletic as Mahomes. For that matter, he is not as athletic as Shedeur Sanders. Sanders has better arm strength and better running ability than Williams.

 

[laKavosiey-st lion]

Regarding USC, I saw Caleb Williams play in person last weekend. To be honest, I don't think this guy is all that good. USC had an advantage at nearly every position, which they won't necessarily have against ND. I expect Caleb will get exposed in the NFL, just like nearly all of the USC QB's before him. Things won't be so easy for him when he is playing teams with similar talent.

What’s wrong? Size? Arm strength? Pocket presence? You’re chatting vs the press’ universal #1 nfl pic ‘24

 

[TheTwistedFrog]

What’s wrong? Size? Arm strength? Pocket presence? You’re chatting vs the press’ universal #1 nfl pic ‘24

The same draft jesters who said that Will Levis was a first round pick?

Sanders was the better QB on the field on Saturday.

Williams is listed at 6’1” and 215. Bigger than Bryce Young and comparable to CJ Stroud but smaller than Drake Maye. That’s still on the smaller size when looking at NFL QBs. Just for comparison, Drew Allar is 6’5” and 243. He decision making is behind where it should be. He holds onto the ball for too long looking for the big play. That works in college, but in the NFL he’s going to need to learn to look for the check downs. If you want a comp, it’s Justin Fields. Good but not elite arm. High level athleticism. But hasn’t learned how to take 5 yards instead of trying to get 50.

But if I’m Caleb Williams, I’m hoping not to go #1 because that means the Bears and they’re a dumpster fire in a hurricane at the moment.

 

[TheTwistedFrog]

PSU's reputation for the entirety of the 2010s (U-M and Wisconsin also had this reputation for the entirety of the 2010s): a very good B1G team, but one that can't regularly beat the "top dog" of the conference.

Well, 2 straight wins U-M over OSU have made them the "new top dog" in the conference.

The problem is, we still haven't proven we can regularly beat the now "old top dog."

The MEDIA has made them the “Top Dog” and the media will take away that title just as quickly if they lose to Penn State or Ohio State.

 

[Midnighter]

The same draft jesters who said that Will Levis was a first round pick?

Sanders was the better QB on the field on Saturday.

Williams is listed at 6’1” and 215. Bigger than Bryce Young and comparable to CJ Stroud but smaller than Drake Maye. That’s still on the smaller size when looking at NFL QBs. Just for comparison, Drew Allar is 6’5” and 243. He decision making is behind where it should be. He holds onto the ball for too long looking for the big play. That works in college, but in the NFL he’s going to need to learn to look for the check downs. If you want a comp, it’s Justin Fields. Good but not elite arm. High level athleticism. But hasn’t learned how to take 5 yards instead of trying to get 50.

But if I’m Caleb Williams, I’m hoping not to go #1 because that means the Bears and they’re a dumpster fire in a hurricane at the moment.

Williams has less talent around him than Fields had at OSU. He’s a playmaker and winner - saving this post for a few years from now….

 

[TheTwistedFrog]

Williams has less talent around him than Fields had at OSU. He’s a playmaker and winner - saving this post for a few years from now….

Save away. Notice at no point did I say he was going to be a bust. But he’s far from the perfect prospect. He’s nowhere near, say, Manning or Luck when they came out. He’s a great college player who could be a very good pro with the right OC calling his plays and fixing the holes in his game. Holes, by the way, that are noticeable to every football fan.

One thing I do take issue with is the idea of a player being a “winner”. That’s meathead nonsense. Baker Mayfield won a Heisman. How’s his career working out? Tim Tebow won a natty. Now he’s a motivational speaker. Conversely, Patrick Mahomes didn’t win jack in college and has two Super Bowl rings. Calling someone a winner is some feel good everyone gets a trophy nonsense that doesn’t mean much when you get to the meat grinder that is the NFL.

 

[coloradotom]

The difference between last year and this year....This year we win

 

[TheTwistedFrog]

The difference between last year and this year....This year we win

I love the confidence , but it’ll take the best we’ve seen from Coach Diaz to beat Michigan.

Michigan emasculated the Penn State defense last year. And Penn State hasn’t gotten appreciably bigger and Michigan hasn’t gotten slower.

I’m hoping I’m wrong. But beating this Michigan team will be one of the biggest wins in Penn State history if they pull it off.

 

[psuno1]

It help's that UM dose not play a ranked team until they play PSU on Nov 11.

 

[TheTwistedFrog]

It help's that UM dose not play a ranked team until they play PSU on Nov 11.

There’s also a decent chance they’ll be #1 when they play Penn State if Georgia keeps sleep walking through their season.

 

[Midnighter]

Save away. Notice at no point did I say he was going to be a bust. But he’s far from the perfect prospect. He’s nowhere near, say, Manning or Luck when they came out. He’s a great college player who could be a very good pro with the right OC calling his plays and fixing the holes in his game. Holes, by the way, that are noticeable to every football fan.

One thing I do take issue with is the idea of a player being a “winner”. That’s meathead nonsense. Baker Mayfield won a Heisman. How’s his career working out? Tim Tebow won a natty. Now he’s a motivational speaker. Conversely, Patrick Mahomes didn’t win jack in college and has two Super Bowl rings. Calling someone a winner is some feel good everyone gets a trophy nonsense that doesn’t mean much when you get to the meat grinder that is the NFL.

You conveniently left out a lot of other winners but naming them doesn’t help your position much….

 

[TheTwistedFrog]

You conveniently left out a lot of other winners but naming them doesn’t help your position much….

My position doesn’t need help. The idea that certain people are just winners is the worst of the jock speak that exists. Winners aren’t born, they’re created through taking what’s been given to them and working harder than everyone else. That’s not something magical that’s inherent jn their DNA. It’s a conscious choice those athletes make.

I detest when someone uses the word winner like it’s a quantifiable thing that people are either born with or they’re not.

 

[Midnighter]

My position doesn’t need help. The idea that certain people are just winners is the worst of the jock speak that exists. Winners aren’t born, they’re created through taking what’s been given to them and working harder than everyone else. That’s not something magical that’s inherent jn their DNA. It’s a conscious choice those athletes make.

I detest when someone uses the word winner like it’s a quantifiable thing that people are either born with or they’re not.

Not quantifiable yet you just did your best to quantify it. Sheesh. Thanks for the fun ‘new guy’.