which is it - X's and O's or Jimmys and Joes?

blion72

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a lot is being said about our OFF troubles and conversation about we don't have coaching staff to go to the next level.

If you could pick any staff (pro or college) and have them coach PSU team as it exists today, what do you think would be different? what would be done to make a difference this season.

on the other hand, what if you took the current staff and they had say Trevor Lawrence or Caleb Williams (in their second year). Or let's say Marvin Harrison had decided to come to PSU. What would be different in just a couple players different on the OFF?
 

LB99

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a lot is being said about our OFF troubles and conversation about we don't have coaching staff to go to the next level.

If you could pick any staff (pro or college) and have them coach PSU team as it exists today, what do you think would be different? what would be done to make a difference this season.

on the other hand, what if you took the current staff and they had say Trevor Lawrence or Caleb Williams (in their second year). Or let's say Marvin Harrison had decided to come to PSU. What would be different in just a couple players different on the OFF?
Allar looks like the prototype NFL QB. Big kid with a big arm that can make any throw with his arm strength. If that is what we are working with, then I would think the 49ers or Bengals offensive coaching style would work best with our current personnel. Both staffs utilize the run game, TEs, and their WR run routes well. The WRs on both those teams are very talented though, so it isn’t fair to compare our WRs to those guys. The Jaguars and Dougie P, would probably do well with this personnel also. All of that said, everything hinges on the OL at both levels.

PSU wins last week with Harrison.
 

Midnighter

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Allar looks like the prototype NFL QB. Big kid with a big arm that can make any throw with his arm strength. If that is what we are working with, then I would think the 49ers or Bengals offensive coaching style would work best with our current personnel. Both staffs utilize the run game, TEs, and their WR run routes well. The WRs on both those teams are very talented though, so it isn’t fair to compare our WRs to those guys. The Jaguars and Dougie P, would probably do well with this personnel also. All of that said, everything hinges on the OL at both levels.

PSU wins last week with Harrison.

Maybe don't even need Harrison - Fleming probably does the trick.
 

FTLPSU

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It starts with coaching and I am specifically talking about when both teams are close to evenly matched. Its the coaches job to make sure they call the right plays at the right times based on a number of things. The players you have and their ability to specifically perform for the play you called, e.g. You can’t have a Receiver run Y crosser if he runs a 4.5+, and not every Defensive player blitzes well, not all corners can play bump and run well. Your units momentum and execution at that time, the unit your facing their S&W etc…it’s like a continuous algorithm.

You think Alabama has more J&J talent than Texas? I think so…Sark knew Bamas weaknesses on defense and exposed it in the flats…you have to have really fast OLBer and Safeties to play Sabans 3-4 schemes. Bama doesn’t have the same skill at those positions..perhaps he could have pivoted into another defensive look and set up his players for more success?

Another example is Illinois vs. us last year..I think we all know it’s apples to oranges the difference in J&J‘s between us and Illini….Bielema adjusted his team to beat our weaknesses..

I think a lot of our fans are frustrated with our lack of adjustments and frankly stubbornness and politics with our Offense last few years.
 

Bison13

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It can be combinations of both. With regard to the Jimmy’s and Joe’s, I think the offensive line has looked better when Dawkins and Shelton have been in. I also think that our wide receiver group does not have the elite playmaker that previous years have had. With regard to xs & Os I will say that I don’t think the scheming of the place has aided our receivers in getting open.
 

Midnighter

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I don’t know about that. Maybe. He never really lived up to the hype. In an offense that has featured WRs, he really never took off. If I remember correctly, he burnt a lot of bridges with the PSU staff also.

I'm speaking very broadly - I mean, he's sat behind a bunch of NFL first rounders. He might be good, and of course, not coming back, but I was saying even with a receiver with some ability to stretch the field and separate we probably win. Harrison would have been an absolute guarantee. He's why OSU won.
 

LB99

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I'm speaking very broadly - I mean, he's sat behind a bunch of NFL first rounders. He might be good, and of course, not coming back, but I was saying even with a receiver with some ability to stretch the field and separate we probably win. Harrison would have been an absolute guarantee. He's why OSU won.
No, I get what you are saying. It’s a good point. I’m just not convinced that Fleming is as talented as he was hyped to be. He may have peaked early. He’s in a system that seems to multiply NFL WRs every year and he can’t seem to elevate his game.
 

pamdlion

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I'm speaking very broadly - I mean, he's sat behind a bunch of NFL first rounders. He might be good, and of course, not coming back, but I was saying even with a receiver with some ability to stretch the field and separate we probably win. Harrison would have been an absolute guarantee. He's why OSU won.
Not why OSU won. They scored 20 points. Our offense was pitiful.
 
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LB99

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Not why OSU won. They scored 20 points. Our offense was pitiful.
Without Harrison, their offense was pitiful also. He is a huge reason why they won. He is the best position player in the country and should be in the Heisman conversation. He’ll most likely be a top 3 pick. Maybe 1 to Chicago to pair with Fields and DJ Moore? Yes, he’s that good.
 

pamdlion

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Without Harrison, their offense was pitiful also. He is a huge reason why they won. He is the best position player in the country and should be in the Heisman conversation. He’ll most likely be a top 3 pick. Maybe 1 to Chicago to pair with Fields and DJ Moore? Yes, he’s that good.
He’s a great player. Best in the country by far. We lost because we couldn’t score 21 points. Couldn’t make 1st downs.
 

LB99

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He’s a great player. Best in the country by far. We lost because we couldn’t score 21 points. Couldn’t make 1st downs.
And without him they would struggle to make first downs also.
 

Michnit

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No, I get what you are saying. It’s a good point. I’m just not convinced that Fleming is as talented as he was hyped to be. He may have peaked early. He’s in a system that seems to multiply NFL WRs every year and he can’t seem to elevate his game.
I know that he's in a WR friendly scheme, but I also know that he's always sitting behind 3-4 5* guys that take a ton of reps away from him.
 

CDLionFL

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a lot is being said about our OFF troubles and conversation about we don't have coaching staff to go to the next level.

If you could pick any staff (pro or college) and have them coach PSU team as it exists today, what do you think would be different? what would be done to make a difference this season.

on the other hand, what if you took the current staff and they had say Trevor Lawrence or Caleb Williams (in their second year). Or let's say Marvin Harrison had decided to come to PSU. What would be different in just a couple players different on the OFF?
I'd love to see what Shanahan would do with this offense and the playmakers that are there. Allar and Purdy are pretty similar. Drew likely has a stronger arm. McCaffrey and Singleton are somewhat similar. Shanny knows what to do with a bunch of good tight ends. Basically, you have to have a staff that will tailor their system to their talent. Pribula is a perfect QB for Franklin's offensive philosophy. Allar, like Hackenberg, is not. But because Drew was such a talent in HS, you have to go get him but once you get him, then you change YOUR philosophy to work with the talent that you have. Allar should be under center working a pro-set offense and not out of the gun doing this read-option crap where 105% of the time, he's handing it off to an RB that is getting a standing start.
 

BW Lion

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I'd love to see what Shanahan would do with this offense and the playmakers that are there. Allar and Purdy are pretty similar. Drew likely has a stronger arm. McCaffrey and Singleton are somewhat similar. Shanny knows what to do with a bunch of good tight ends. Basically, you have to have a staff that will tailor their system to their talent. Pribula is a perfect QB for Franklin's offensive philosophy. Allar, like Hackenberg, is not. But because Drew was such a talent in HS, you have to go get him but once you get him, then you change YOUR philosophy to work with the talent that you have. Allar should be under center working a pro-set offense and not out of the gun doing this read-option crap where 105% of the time, he's handing it off to an RB that is getting a standing start.
Doesn’t matter. Need to fix the OL first so that it blocks pro style.

Franklin doesn’t want any part of that.
 
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marshall23

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No, I get what you are saying. It’s a good point. I’m just not convinced that Fleming is as talented as he was hyped to be. He may have peaked early. He’s in a system that seems to multiply NFL WRs every year and he can’t seem to elevate his game.
He's got a chronic shoulder injury. Dates back to high school.
 

Omar81

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a lot is being said about our OFF troubles and conversation about we don't have coaching staff to go to the next level.

If you could pick any staff (pro or college) and have them coach PSU team as it exists today, what do you think would be different? what would be done to make a difference this season.

on the other hand, what if you took the current staff and they had say Trevor Lawrence or Caleb Williams (in their second year). Or let's say Marvin Harrison had decided to come to PSU. What would be different in just a couple players different on the OFF?
My first reaction to your hypothetical is not to answer your question, but instead to point out the elephant in the room: The coaching staff is responsible for recruiting, developing, and evaluating the players on the roster. They also develop the playbooks on both offense and defense, and are responsible for doing so in a way that maximizes the productivity of the players they have recruited and developed, and are choosing to put on the field. The players, on the other hand, have no say so in who the coaches are or the schemes that are implemented. We aren’t dealing with isolated lack of execution by one or more players, but rather a systemic weakness in the OL, a schematic weakness in the use of RBs (including the stationary handoffs five yards deep that were the only thing preventing Saturn from winning the Heisman), and an overall offensive philosophy that minimizes the effectiveness of a big-armed but relatively immobile QB.
 

Calabrin

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It starts with coaching and I am specifically talking about when both teams are close to evenly matched. Its the coaches job to make sure they call the right plays at the right times based on a number of things. The players you have and their ability to specifically perform for the play you called, e.g. You can’t have a Receiver run Y crosser if he runs a 4.5+, and not every Defensive player blitzes well, not all corners can play bump and run well. Your units momentum and execution at that time, the unit your facing their S&W etc…it’s like a continuous algorithm.

You think Alabama has more J&J talent than Texas? I think so…Sark knew Bamas weaknesses on defense and exposed it in the flats…you have to have really fast OLBer and Safeties to play Sabans 3-4 schemes. Bama doesn’t have the same skill at those positions..perhaps he could have pivoted into another defensive look and set up his players for more success?

Another example is Illinois vs. us last year..I think we all know it’s apples to oranges the difference in J&J‘s between us and Illini….Bielema adjusted his team to beat our weaknesses..

I think a lot of our fans are frustrated with our lack of adjustments and frankly stubbornness and politics with our Offense last few years.
This is very well thought out and articulated.

Week over week, it’s increasingly difficult to imagine what goes on between Saturdays with our program.

A good program should, in theory, improve as the season goes on. This has not been the case for Penn State. We started the season with a weak run game, and 8-games deep, there’s been no improvement.

The passing game has arguably regressed since week-1.

What bothers me is how divorced from realty JF sounds in press conferences.

“We battled.”
“We were resilient.”
“We made big plays at critical moments.”
“We found a way to win.”

If you heard those comments in a vacuum, you’d never guess he was talking about playing Indiana at home. It’s astounding.

To me, there doesn’t seem to be any discernible plan for this program. It’s a bunch of guys with cushy jobs resting on their laurels. “If we win, great. If not… meh, that’s fine, too.” How else would you explain not just the lack of improvement, but the complete lack of the coaches making changes?

If I’m HC, and we’re 8 games deep, and looking like the Keystone Cops on one side of the ball, I want answers. I want to know what we’re going to do about it. And if the OC’s answer is, “Just keep doing the same dumb s#,” I’m relieving him of his play calling duties.

No one expects us to win every single game. But at least convince us, as fans, that you’re TRYING.

Throwing 10% of your pass attempts to the middle of the field (actual stat) doesn’t convince you’re trying to win. It convinces me you shouldn’t be a coach at a P5 program.
 
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FTLPSU

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This is very well thought out and articulated.

Week over week, it’s increasingly difficult to imagine what goes on between Saturdays with our program.

A good program should, in theory, improve as the season goes on. This has not been the case for Penn State. We started the season with a weak run game, and 8-games deep, there’s been no improvement.

The passing game has arguably regressed since week-1.

What bothers me is how divorced from realty JF sounds in press conferences.

“We battled.”
“We were resilient.”
“We made big plays at critical moments.”
“We found a way to win.”

If you heard those comments in a vacuum, you’d never guess he was talking about playing Indiana at home. It’s astounding.

To me, there doesn’t seem to be any discernible plan for this program. It’s a bunch of guys with cushy jobs resting on their laurels. “If we win, great. If not… meh, that’s fine, too.” How else would you explain not just the lack of improvement, but the complete lack of the coaches making changes?

If I’m HC, and we’re 8 games deep, and looking like the Keystone Cops on one side of the ball, I want answers. I want to know what we’re going to do about it. And if the OC’s answer is, “Just keep doing the same dumb s#,” I’m relieving him of his play calling duties.

No one expects us to win every single game. But at least convince us, as fans, that you’re TRYING.

Throwing 10% of your pass attempts to the middle of the field (actual stat) doesn’t convince you’re trying to win. It convinces me you shouldn’t be a coach at a P5 program.
100% its the BS talk and very little substance...I have stopped being critical of JF last two years as I am taking it as it comes--it is what it is.

I want him to be successful, he is a great representation of PSU. Want nothing but the best--he makes a lot of money--a lot....doesn't seem to make adjustments. I don't know...
 
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LB99

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I know that he's in a WR friendly scheme, but I also know that he's always sitting behind 3-4 5* guys that take a ton of reps away from him.
He was/is a 5 star guy.

 
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FTLPSU

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He was/is a 5 star guy.


LB99 I remember him being a 5* and I think top WR that year---isnt he a little slow in his 40-time?
Not sure his numbers? Point being that some say he isnt as good as advertised.. and of course i recall him from small school-comp etc.
 
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Catch1lion

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I'm speaking very broadly - I mean, he's sat behind a bunch of NFL first rounders. He might be good, and of course, not coming back, but I was saying even with a receiver with some ability to stretch the field and separate we probably win. Harrison would have been an absolute guarantee. He's why OSU won.
OSU rushing attack has been putrid. Obviously, some injuries, but the stat line I saw was ranking of around 94th in the coutnry in ypc. (I don't recall if it was just before or after our match up). Definitely missed out on an opportunity to take down the Bucks this season.
 

TheBigUglies

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This is very well thought out and articulated.

Week over week, it’s increasingly difficult to imagine what goes on between Saturdays with our program.

A good program should, in theory, improve as the season goes on. This has not been the case for Penn State. We started the season with a weak run game, and 8-games deep, there’s been no improvement.

The passing game has arguably regressed since week-1.

What bothers me is how divorced from realty JF sounds in press conferences.

“We battled.”
“We were resilient.”
“We made big plays at critical moments.”
“We found a way to win.”

If you heard those comments in a vacuum, you’d never guess he was talking about playing Indiana at home. It’s astounding.

To me, there doesn’t seem to be any discernible plan for this program. It’s a bunch of guys with cushy jobs resting on their laurels. “If we win, great. If not… meh, that’s fine, too.” How else would you explain not just the lack of improvement, but the complete lack of the coaches making changes?

If I’m HC, and we’re 8 games deep, and looking like the Keystone Cops on one side of the ball, I want answers. I want to know what we’re going to do about it. And if the OC’s answer is, “Just keep doing the same dumb s#,” I’m relieving him of his play calling duties.

No one expects us to win every single game. But at least convince us, as fans, that you’re TRYING.

Throwing 10% of your pass attempts to the middle of the field (actual stat) doesn’t convince you’re trying to win. It convinces me you shouldn’t be a coach at a P5 program.
Well said. We have regressed and not improved. Seems like this staff is watching too much "Remember the Titans" - "it's just like Novocain, give it time it'll work"
 

Bvillebaron

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I'd love to see what Shanahan would do with this offense and the playmakers that are there. Allar and Purdy are pretty similar. Drew likely has a stronger arm. McCaffrey and Singleton are somewhat similar. Shanny knows what to do with a bunch of good tight ends. Basically, you have to have a staff that will tailor their system to their talent. Pribula is a perfect QB for Franklin's offensive philosophy. Allar, like Hackenberg, is not. But because Drew was such a talent in HS, you have to go get him but once you get him, then you change YOUR philosophy to work with the talent that you have. Allar should be under center working a pro-set offense and not out of the gun doing this read-option crap where 105% of the time, he's handing it off to an RB that is getting a standing start.
Shanahan’s team has lost 3 straight since the Niners won the Super Bowl against the Cowboys. What read option is PSU running by the way?
 

Bvillebaron

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This is very well thought out and articulated.

Week over week, it’s increasingly difficult to imagine what goes on between Saturdays with our program.

A good program should, in theory, improve as the season goes on. This has not been the case for Penn State. We started the season with a weak run game, and 8-games deep, there’s been no improvement.

The passing game has arguably regressed since week-1.

What bothers me is how divorced from realty JF sounds in press conferences.

“We battled.”
“We were resilient.”
“We made big plays at critical moments.”
“We found a way to win.”

If you heard those comments in a vacuum, you’d never guess he was talking about playing Indiana at home. It’s astounding.

To me, there doesn’t seem to be any discernible plan for this program. It’s a bunch of guys with cushy jobs resting on their laurels. “If we win, great. If not… meh, that’s fine, too.” How else would you explain not just the lack of improvement, but the complete lack of the coaches making changes?

If I’m HC, and we’re 8 games deep, and looking like the Keystone Cops on one side of the ball, I want answers. I want to know what we’re going to do about it. And if the OC’s answer is, “Just keep doing the same dumb s#,” I’m relieving him of his play calling duties.

No one expects us to win every single game. But at least convince us, as fans, that you’re TRYING.

Throwing 10% of your pass attempts to the middle of the field (actual stat) doesn’t convince you’re trying to win. It convinces me you shouldn’t be a coach at a P5 program.
Thanks for the coaching “clinic”. I am sure all the other Franklin hating “experts” on here found it terribly “enlightening”.
 

TheBigUglies

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To me, it is mostly the X's and O's. Offense has always struggled since Franklin has been here. He got lucky with Moorehead, Barkley and McSorely are incredible athletes. When they graduated, that type of offense didn't really work anymore. They even struggled with it at times. It's the X's and O's that seems to allow defenders to always be in our backfilled that disrupt the offensive timing.

That being said, we were 10-2 in 1993 when Kerry Collins started playing QB and we all know what happened in 1994. Drew Allar is still learning the position under game conditions along with several others. Hopefully this group will all return next year.
 
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marshall23

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It's a blend or balance. You can't polish mud....can't make chicken salad out of chicken excrement.
Belichick or Brady?
Chicken or egg?
I believe talent that is amenable to coaching goes a long way to game day success.
Talent with out a desire to be coached and challenged is useless and unfortunately common.
2017-22 PSU recruiting classes rank around 12.5 nationally.
 
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NittanyBuff

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It's a blend or balance. You can't polish mud....can't make chicken salad out of chicken excrement.
Belichick or Brady?
Chicken or egg?
I believe talent that is amenable to coaching goes a long way to game day success.
Talent with out a desire to be coached and challenged is useless and unfortunately common.
2017-22 PSU recruiting classes rank around 12.5 nationally.
I believe TB has proven at least at that level QB is far more important than the coach.
 

laKavosiey-st lion

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OSU rushing attack has been putrid. Obviously, some injuries, but the stat line I saw was ranking of around 94th in the coutnry in ypc. (I don't recall if it was just before or after our match up). Definitely missed out on an opportunity to take down the Bucks this season
it was a golden opp fo sho
 
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marshall23

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I believe TB has proven at least at that level QB is far more important than the coach.
There are many great coaches who labor their entire careers in anonymity because they never enjoy great talent. Brady of course is a Hall of Fame talent. We will never know exactly how much he would have achieved without Bill.
Someone still has to organize the talent. If you took your wristwatch apart and put it into a paper bag and shook it for 65 years....the pieces would never just fall together to make a functioning timepiece.
 

FTLPSU

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There are many great coaches who labor their entire careers in anonymity because they never enjoy great talent. Brady of course is a Hall of Fame talent. We will never know exactly how much he would have achieved without Bill.
Someone still has to organize the talent. If you took your wristwatch apart and put it into a paper bag and shook it for 65 years....the pieces would never just fall together to make a functioning timepiece.
To further your point--Bellichek early on helped Brady mature more easily as he had great defenses....not same amount of pressure. They won together--I think Brady got better each year and after winning the SB with TB it makes it look like its all him--of course he chose a great team in TB that just needed a great QB--if he went to another 20 teams he most likely aint winning a SB....
 

marshall23

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To further your point--Bellichek early on helped Brady mature more easily as he had great defenses....not same amount of pressure. They won together--I think Brady got better each year and after winning the SB with TB it makes it look like its all him--of course he chose a great team in TB that just needed a great QB--if he went to another 20 teams he most likely aint winning a SB....
No one was reserving a high draft choice for Brady coming out of Michigan. Athletes, even with great natural ability, need the right environment to hit peak potential. All anyone needs to do is reference the MLB draft and see the top picks that just don't live up to the hype.
 
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Catch1lion

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Athletes, even with great natural ability, need the right environment to hit peak potential.
Sounds a little like a clip from the book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. A great read on how the pieces must align to become a success.
 
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