EV/hybrids were 20% of new cars sold last year

[Seinfeld]

I will take a serious look at hybrid for my next car, not EV though. 5 years ago my perception was that all of that tech was too new to be long term reliable. If EVs have done nothing else, they've pushed battery tech forward to a point that I would consider hybrid.

Same. I’m still driving an ‘09 Pathfinder because I’ve reached the point where I view a car as an A to B tool more so than anything else. However, when the day comes when I do finally have to hand her down, I’m 99% sold on getting a hybrid.

Back in the day, a hybrid meant cramming yourself into some tiny Prius-like contraption and feeling a jolt when the engine kicks in, but those days are long gone. There are beautiful, smooth riding hybrid SUVs out there that get 30-50 mpg, and I’ve struggled to find anything more appealing than that for a price that I can afford

 

[mstateglfr]

EVs are perfect for stop and go, wherever that might be. Even busses.

Hybrids are best for distance, and most all commuter cars should be hybrid.

Gas, jet fuel, diesel still needed for more specific things.

New ICE engines for passenger vehicles needs to go away. That's the big factor in this country. Too many folks driving. We have to use our oil to fuel big trucks, airplanes and other necessary things. I really don't think it should be that difficult.

This is backwards from everything I have ever read about hybrids. I swear its been discussed on SPS multiple times over the last couple years too, whenever someone says 'hybrids are best for distance'.
Hybrid tech is best utilized during in-town driving.
Hybrid tech is least utilized during distance highway driving.

There is still an MPG benefit with most hybrids for highway driving, but it is very minimal and when you compare the cost to operate over an extended period of time(5+ years), a hybrid that does all highway driving often ends up being more expensive than the same vehicle in ICE form(or compared to similar vehicles in the category).
A RAV4 hybrid gets up to 41 city and 38 highway. The XLE is $33,810.
A RAV4 gets up to 27 city and 35 highway. The XLE is $30,760.

- $3100 more for the hybrid.
- And at 15,000mi/year of highway driving with gas at $2.89/g(what it is where I live), the savings is only $98 each year.
- So after 5 years you have saved $500 in gas but spent $3100 more for the same level model vehicle.


++This is obviously just highway driving and nobody does literally only highway driving. But it shows how little value hybrids can have over ICE when it comes to distance driving.++




Your last comments are spot on and it would be awesome if that were to happen. I would love to see ICE be damn near eliminated from passenger vehicles and hybrid be the default. Reduce emissions everywhere.

 

[SteelCurtain74]

Volkswagen bought Scout a few years ago and are taking pre-orders on their EV suv and truck. The suv has the option for a gas range extender which increases the range from 350 to 500 miles. I believe these come out in 2027.

https://www.scoutmotors.com/

The ads all show off road use but I'm curious if most of these pre-orders will be collector types instead of daily driver/offroad customers.

 

[patdog]

This is backwards from everything I have ever read about hybrids. I swear its been discussed on SPS multiple times over the last couple years too, whenever someone says 'hybrids are best for distance'.
Hybrid tech is best utilized during in-town driving.
Hybrid tech is least utilized during distance highway driving.

There is still an MPG benefit with most hybrids for highway driving, but it is very minimal and when you compare the cost to operate over an extended period of time(5+ years), a hybrid that does all highway driving often ends up being more expensive than the same vehicle in ICE form(or compared to similar vehicles in the category).
A RAV4 hybrid gets up to 41 city and 38 highway. The XLE is $33,810.
A RAV4 gets up to 27 city and 35 highway. The XLE is $30,760.

- $3100 more for the hybrid.
- And at 15,000mi/year of highway driving with gas at $2.89/g(what it is where I live), the savings is only $98 each year.
- So after 5 years you have saved $500 in gas but spent $3100 more for the same level model vehicle.


++This is obviously just highway driving and nobody does literally only highway driving. But it shows how little value hybrids can have over ICE when it comes to distance driving.++




Your last comments are spot on and it would be awesome if that were to happen. I would love to see ICE be damn near eliminated from passenger vehicles and hybrid be the default. Reduce emissions everywhere.

While you're right that hybrids do better in city driving, due to regenerative braking, the difference between city and highway driving is negligible. For example, I was at Mazda dealership this morning for some maintenance and was looking at the new cars. The CX-50 hybrid is rated at 39mpg city and 37mpg highway. Experience with my parents' Prius is pretty similar. About 55 mpg city and 52 mpg highway.

 

[johnson86-1]

Yeah, the 7-seat thing is definitely an issue. I'm guessing the $90k model you're thinking of is the three-row Rivian? There's the upcoming VW Bus reboot, which looks cool and is pretty spacious, but suffers from low range (230-ish miles) and unimpressive charging speeds. It costs $60k - $65k.

And then there's the Kia EV9, which is probably the most competitive three-row EV right now -- same or more passenger room than Pilots and Explorers, same or better in cargo room, too, 300 miles of range, very fast charging, and solidly equipped in the upper $50s or mid $60s. I think it qualifies for the full $7,500 tax credit currently. I'm sure the next administration will tighten the regs related to the credit, though who knows whether Congress will repeal the whole law.

But that's about it for EV options like that. There are great hybrid choices in that range, though. Hybrid Highlander and Grand Highlander, the Sienna, the hybrid Aviator, the Volvo XC90, hybrid Kia Sorento, etc. My wife's got a three-row plug-in hybrid Pacifica minivan that's been really useful. 30 miles of EV range plugging in to a normal wall socket overnight, then 30 mpg on gas. Same massive passenger and cargo space as a normal ICE minivan, too. Great for normal commuting, which is almost entirely electric, but also great for road trips, especially if you rent a house or cabin so that you can recharge every night. (Granted, it's a Chrysler, so we got an extended warranty on the thing.)

As for hybrids in general, we've driven them since 2010 in our house and I agree with others on here that they should become the norm. I had a Ford Fusion hybrid for over a decade and loved it. Plenty of room, great ride, and between 35 - 40 mpg the entire time. I had to pay for a single repair in 13 years of ownership, a $300 throttle body assembly. Same story for a Prius we had for a while. The plugin RAV4 Prime I'm driving now will hopefully continue the trend. 40 - 50 miles of EV range from overnight charging in a wall socket, nearly 40 mpg on gas, and faster than it should be (302 horsepower with tons of torque).

Volvo EX90 is what I was talking about. I thought the Kia EV9 had basically no room behind the third seat when it's up. But that was going off a picture, not looking at it in person. If the Kia EV9 has room behind the 3rd seat, $60k is not a huge premium over a comparable model from another comparable model (at least from other brands; not sure abou tfrom the comparable Kia) and would make sense.

 

[mstateglfr]

While you're right that hybrids do better in city driving, due to regenerative braking, the difference between city and highway driving is negligible. For example, I was at Mazda dealership this morning for some maintenance and was looking at the new cars. The CX-50 hybrid is rated at 39mpg city and 37mpg highway. Experience with my parents' Prius is pretty similar. About 55 mpg city and 52 mpg highway.

Correct, your observation is supported by my example where the RAV4 Hybrid gets 41 city and 38 highway.
But compared to the RAV4 ICE version, the city miles are where there is a huge benefit to using a hybrid. So a hybrid would excel in city use and not long distance riding...compared to an ICE vehicle of the same model/class.

 

[patdog]

Correct, your observation is supported by my example where the RAV4 Hybrid gets 41 city and 38 highway.
But compared to the RAV4 ICE version, the city miles are where there is a huge benefit to using a hybrid. So a hybrid would excel in city use and not long distance riding...compared to an ICE vehicle of the same model/class.

Ah, I get your point now. I agree. Although even the highway difference is significant. For the CX-50, city mileage is 56% improvement, but even highway mileage is 19% improvement.

 

[dudehead]

I understood what you were replying to… however, your reply said “government subsidies in a nutshell”… as in all subsidies aren’t needed or shouldn’t exist. I think most people should be ok with the government propping up a new technology for a bit, especially if it has potential to be transformative. But at some point a product has to be able to stand alone. I’m sure there is a long list of tech advances that benefit us greatly today that started with government subsidies.

I've always heard the space program is an example of "good" government spending that gave us a lot of new technology but I don't know the specifics to back it up.

 

[dudehead]

Yeah, the 7-seat thing is definitely an issue. I'm guessing the $90k model you're thinking of is the three-row Rivian? There's the upcoming VW Bus reboot, which looks cool and is pretty spacious, but suffers from low range (230-ish miles) and unimpressive charging speeds. It costs $60k - $65k.

And then there's the Kia EV9, which is probably the most competitive three-row EV right now -- same or more passenger room than Pilots and Explorers, same or better in cargo room, too, 300 miles of range, very fast charging, and solidly equipped in the upper $50s or mid $60s. I think it qualifies for the full $7,500 tax credit currently. I'm sure the next administration will tighten the regs related to the credit, though who knows whether Congress will repeal the whole law.

But that's about it for EV options like that. There are great hybrid choices in that range, though. Hybrid Highlander and Grand Highlander, the Sienna, the hybrid Aviator, the Volvo XC90, hybrid Kia Sorento, etc. My wife's got a three-row plug-in hybrid Pacifica minivan that's been really useful. 30 miles of EV range plugging in to a normal wall socket overnight, then 30 mpg on gas. Same massive passenger and cargo space as a normal ICE minivan, too. Great for normal commuting, which is almost entirely electric, but also great for road trips, especially if you rent a house or cabin so that you can recharge every night. (Granted, it's a Chrysler, so we got an extended warranty on the thing.)

As for hybrids in general, we've driven them since 2010 in our house and I agree with others on here that they should become the norm. I had a Ford Fusion hybrid for over a decade and loved it. Plenty of room, great ride, and between 35 - 40 mpg the entire time. I had to pay for a single repair in 13 years of ownership, a $300 throttle body assembly. Same story for a Prius we had for a while. The plugin RAV4 Prime I'm driving now will hopefully continue the trend. 40 - 50 miles of EV range from overnight charging in a wall socket, nearly 40 mpg on gas, and faster than it should be (302 horsepower with tons of torque).

Have you been pleased with the Rav4 Prime? I'm currently looking at that but "heard" there's a electrical cable design flaw of some sort that is poorly designed and causes problems at the 50K miles stage. That did not sound like Toyota to me but I am curious about it.

 

[leeinator]

Fox Business reported Tesla has decreased production of their new EV Truck. Their inventory is ski high and sales are down. IMO, until an EV manufacturer can get the price below 35K and can recharge at an EV station in less than 30 minutes, they will never come close to replacing gas driven vehicles. EV to me, is just a city/local type vehicle because of this. Families who want to take long range vacations off the beaten trail will never use an EV to do so.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

This is backwards from everything I have ever read about hybrids. I swear its been discussed on SPS multiple times over the last couple years too, whenever someone says 'hybrids are best for distance'.
Hybrid tech is best utilized during in-town driving.
Hybrid tech is least utilized during distance highway driving.

There is still an MPG benefit with most hybrids for highway driving, but it is very minimal and when you compare the cost to operate over an extended period of time(5+ years), a hybrid that does all highway driving often ends up being more expensive than the same vehicle in ICE form(or compared to similar vehicles in the category).
A RAV4 hybrid gets up to 41 city and 38 highway. The XLE is $33,810.
A RAV4 gets up to 27 city and 35 highway. The XLE is $30,760.

- $3100 more for the hybrid.
- And at 15,000mi/year of highway driving with gas at $2.89/g(what it is where I live), the savings is only $98 each year.
- So after 5 years you have saved $500 in gas but spent $3100 more for the same level model vehicle.


++This is obviously just highway driving and nobody does literally only highway driving. But it shows how little value hybrids can have over ICE when it comes to distance driving.++




Your last comments are spot on and it would be awesome if that were to happen. I would love to see ICE be damn near eliminated from passenger vehicles and hybrid be the default. Reduce emissions everywhere.

To me it's not that the hybrid beats the same ICE car by a certain amount (though certainly better) on the highway. But it beats the EV on the highway. It also obviously beats ICE in city driving by a long shot (the electric part of it - just like an EV).

So it depends on what you're comparing. In general, most highway driving will also include some city, somewhere. So overall, no reason to get an ICE in theory, right? If we're only comparing the drive cost (outside of things that will improve over time like expense, qualified mechanics, etc.)

The other comparison is hybrid vs. EV on the highway. EV just can't go that distance without charging, etc. Advantage hybrid.

And hopefully price for all goes down, the more that are made.

 

[bully12]

Not surprising.

I think we all knew the numbers of EV/Hybrids sold would increase.

Also no surprise: Those particular new sales are mostly hybrids which make up almost 12 percent of the total new sales.

If new EV (not counting hybrids) sales go up to 15 percent, I’d be more impressed.

There's literally acres and acres of EV's in Europe rotting as derelicts in fields because of the cost of battery replacement once the original wears out. My understanding is that replacing an EV battery costs more than the original cost of the vehicle. Since I'm an old fart, I'll stick with my ultra reliable 2018 Honda CRV. Just saying. . . . .

 

[mstateglfr]

There's literally acres and acres of EV's in Europe rotting as derelicts in fields because of the cost of battery replacement once the original wears out. My understanding is that replacing an EV battery costs more than the original cost of the vehicle. Since I'm an old fart, I'll stick with my ultra reliable 2018 Honda CRV. Just saying. . . . .

Got pics or links to these verified and legit fields?
...and are these fields fundamentally different from the fields of ICE vehicles and equipment that litter the globe?

 

[ronpolk]

Fox Business reported Tesla has decreased production of their new EV Truck. Their inventory is ski high and sales are down. IMO, until an EV manufacturer can get the price below 35K and can recharge at an EV station in less than 30 minutes, they will never come close to replacing gas driven vehicles. EV to me, is just a city/local type vehicle because of this. Families who want to take long range vacations off the beaten trail will never use an EV to do so.

I don’t know much about Tesla in general or the long term cost of having one… but I drove one for the first time a couple weekends ago. They are impressive from a power standpoint. The acceleration those cars have is very impressive. I’m not sure I’d ever own one but it was very fun to drive.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

#1. I don't give 2 shíts about the environmental impact of gas or batteries. We're well on our way to spraying our crops with Brawndo the thirst mutilator by 2100 anyway.
#2. Electric motors are considerably more durable and powerful than ice motors.
#3. The technology will continue to advance rapidly and everyone will eventually switch over to some kind of electrified vehicle. True gas cars will be more niche' production vehicles.

There are really 6 major categories of vehicles in the next couple of years and I expect a few to go away sooner than later.

1. Gas powered ice vehicles
2. Diesel powered ice vehicles
3. Hybrid gas/electric vehicles (Prius, F150 Hybrid)
4. Plug-in hybrid gas vehicles (Jeep 4xe, BMW X5xDrive)
5. Electric vehicles (Tesla, Rivian, Etc)
6. Extended range electric vehicles...Electric motors and mid size battery pack with gas generator to recharge the batteries while driving (2025 Ramcharger, 2027 Scout Harvester)

The sixth one is the game changer for us manly men who need huge range and heavy duty towing. Look at the specs on this truck below. This is mofo has near 3/4 ton payload and towing capacity. Built in generator offers 7.2 kw of onboard power so I can park my RV in desert and run both ACs for a week.

You're going to be able to tow a 9-10k lbs RV 350-400 miles with this sucker using 20 gallons of gas. It has 650+ ponies to make it up the hills if you need to pass a Corvette with said RV in tow.

The non towing range will let you drive from Starkville to Chicago without stopping if you can hold your weewee for that long. If you are just cruising back and forth to work from Starkville to Tupelo everyday, you don't need any gas for that since it has 140 miles of electric only range.

All that said, it's pretty ugly (wish they make the body look less ghey) and will have a ton of issues for a few years as they work out the kinks. But I expect most of the other truck manufacturers to follow suit. If you haven't, look up how modern locomotives work... Diesel generators powering electric motors. Nothing pulls like electric motors.

80-90% of my miles are not towing and would probably be electric only with that kind of range. But the other 10-20% are my favorite miles pulling my 8800lbs RV through the rocky mountains with my family, so I drive a F250 with a 6.2 gas engine. The specs on this RAM blow it out of the water for my needs and I can only imagine what it's going to look like when the other manufacturers follow suit. I'm not getting one yet, but I am watching this segment very closely (Well, I actually have a reservation on the Scout Traveller with Harvester gas range extender because its 17ing sweet looking.)

 

[Prediction? Pain.]

Have you been pleased with the Rav4 Prime? I'm currently looking at that but "heard" there's a electrical cable design flaw of some sort that is poorly designed and causes problems at the 50K miles stage. That did not sound like Toyota to me but I am curious about it.

The Prime has been great. Handles better than the 13 year old sedan it replaced, it has a compliant ride, it's super functional, it's spacious enough for road tripping and car camping with four adults, it has enough ground clearance (8.3") to tackle a curb, a mildly rocky road, or some snow when necessary, and of course it's crazy efficient. I got the XSE with the premium package, too, so it's got enough extra features to help the car at least take a swing at its Lexus-like price.

The 42 EV miles per charge that it's rated for has been spot on, but usually as a floor, not a ceiling. I'm often getting 50+ miles of range if I'm driving only city miles. Pretty solid for about $1.30 worth of electricity. The estimated 35 - 40 mpg on gas alone is accurate, too, though almost all of my gas-only miles have come in highway driving on road trips.

My complaints are minor. I drive with the seat most of the way back (I'm 6' 4") and the wide B pillars are a little obstructive of my line of sight over my shoulder. There's more road noise at highway speeds than I'd like. Toyota's media interface on my '21 model -- which I bypass with Android Auto -- is dated. And . . . that's about it.

You can make reasonable arguments for and against the car based on it's value proposition vs regular hybrid SUVs. But you just need to know those pros and cons going in. Bottom line, it does everything it's supposed to and does them incredibly well

The cable issue you've heard of affected all (or many) hybrid RAV4s, plugin or not, early-ish in the current generation. I believe that Toyota addressed the issue starting in 2021 or 2022. Regardless, they've offered a specific eight-year, 100,000 mile warranty for the affected cars. I got a letter about it last summer. Here are some details about it. I've not heard anything about more recent model years behind affected.

Feel free to message me if you'd like me to nerd out with even more details.

 

[leeinator]

To me it's not that the hybrid beats the same ICE car by a certain amount (though certainly better) on the highway. But it beats the EV on the highway. It also obviously beats ICE in city driving by a long shot (the electric part of it - just like an EV).

So it depends on what you're comparing. In general, most highway driving will also include some city, somewhere. So overall, no reason to get an ICE in theory, right? If we're only comparing the drive cost (outside of things that will improve over time like expense, qualified mechanics, etc.)

The other comparison is hybrid vs. EV on the highway. EV just can't go that distance without charging, etc. Advantage hybrid.

And hopefully price for all goes down, the more that are made.

Yup.....love my RAV4 Hybrid SUV. Paid about 33K for it and I can get 48 mpg if I keep it around 70 mph or less. Even if I do step it up to 75+ mph, it will still get in the high 30's/low 40's mpg. The big helper is putting it on cruise control.....that gives me the best mileage possible at any respective speed.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

I notice my mailman’s truck automatically shuts off when he stops which I assume helps a lot considering how much stop and go they do. My wife’s car has it too but we always disable it because the mechanic in me doesn’t want to know what a new starter will cost in 2 years.

Our palisade does it. I hit the button to disable it as soon as I get in the car.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Got pics or links to these verified and legit fields?
...and are these fields fundamentally different from the fields of ICE vehicles and equipment that litter the globe?

I Googled "Unsold EV's in Europe" clicked on images and there are many pictures of literally dozens of huge fields of thousands and thousands of unsold and apparently unwanted EV's from numerous "legit" sources. Bloomberg had the most interesting article that I saw.

 

[dudehead]

The Prime has been great. Handles better than the 13 year old sedan it replaced, it has a compliant ride, it's super functional, it's spacious enough for road tripping and car camping with four adults, it has enough ground clearance (8.3") to tackle a curb, a mildly rocky road, or some snow when necessary, and of course it's crazy efficient. I got the XSE with the premium package, too, so it's got enough extra features to help the car at least take a swing at its Lexus-like price.

The 42 EV miles per charge that it's rated for has been spot on, but usually as a floor, not a ceiling. I'm often getting 50+ miles of range if I'm driving only city miles. Pretty solid for about $1.30 worth of electricity. The estimated 35 - 40 mpg on gas alone is accurate, too, though almost all of my gas-only miles have come in highway driving on road trips.

My complaints are minor. I drive with the seat most of the way back (I'm 6' 4") and the wide B pillars are a little obstructive of my line of sight over my shoulder. There's more road noise at highway speeds than I'd like. Toyota's media interface on my '21 model -- which I bypass with Android Auto -- is dated. And . . . that's about it.

You can make reasonable arguments for and against the car based on it's value proposition vs regular hybrid SUVs. But you just need to know those pros and cons going in. Bottom line, it does everything it's supposed to and does them incredibly well

The cable issue you've heard of affected all (or many) hybrid RAV4s, plugin or not, early-ish in the current generation. I believe that Toyota addressed the issue starting in 2021 or 2022. Regardless, they've offered a specific eight-year, 100,000 mile warranty for the affected cars. I got a letter about it last summer. Here are some details about it. I've not heard anything about more recent model years behind affected.

Feel free to message me if you'd like me to nerd out with even more details.

Thank you for the detailed report.

 

[WilCoDawg]

I wonder what the future holds for hybrids and regulations. Manufacturers may go the route Toyota is doing with the Tundra hybrid: make the ride a hybrid that doesn’t function as an actual hybrid. It’s an easy loophole for manufacturers. But because it’s technically a hybrid, it (and toyota) are seen as compliant to the gubmint.

 

[aTotal360]

This is backwards from everything I have ever read about hybrids. I swear its been discussed on SPS multiple times over the last couple years too, whenever someone says 'hybrids are best for distance'.
Hybrid tech is best utilized during in-town driving.
Hybrid tech is least utilized during distance highway driving.

Correct. Since high-torque electric motors in hybrid systems have access to their full power at "zero rpm", they are designed to initiate rolling momentum. That is where ICE engines are at their lowest efficiency in day-to-day driving.

 

[Pars]

Wife had a 2015 Camry Hybrid perfect car
Upgraded to the 22 hybrid Highlander loves it.
Just don’t love the MS hybrid tax
was $75 now it’s $88 making her Highlander tag $385 this year

fun times

 

[aTotal360]

Wife had a 2015 Camry Hybrid perfect car
Upgraded to the 22 hybrid Highlander loves it.
Just don’t love the MS hybrid tax
was $75 now it’s $88 making her Highlander tag $385 this year

fun times

I think the Highlander Hybrid is the most perfect 7-seater on the planet. Price, reliability, MPG, ride quality, etc.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

I think the Highlander Hybrid is the most perfect 7-seater on the planet. Price, reliability, MPG, ride quality, etc.

Our neighbors have a Highlander Hybrid. Really nice ride. Only thing I don’t like is the third row is the old school removable seat instead of a fold down. Everything else is awesome.

 

[Jacknut]

Trump says he's going to cut the $7,500 gov assistance on EVs, so it will be interesting to see how that plays out. I think the manufacturers have that amount baked into the price anyway, but we'll see. And let me say as 12 year owner of a 2010 Prius, it's been a very reliable car. Just tires and fluids with 223k miles on the clock. Still on the original brakes!

A couple of things 1) don't buy an EV - these things depreciate rapidly, i never advocate for leasing but it's right for an EV 2) the hybrid upcharge from the regular model buys a lot of gas, so it takes a while to recoup the extra price from the increased mileage

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Wife had a 2015 Camry Hybrid perfect car
Upgraded to the 22 hybrid Highlander loves it.
Just don’t love the MS hybrid tax
was $75 now it’s $88 making her Highlander tag $385 this year

fun times

Got to pay your share of the highway privilege tax.**

Doesn’t Mississippi offer a 1000 dollar credit for buying a hybrid?

 

[WilCoDawg]

Wife had a 2015 Camry Hybrid perfect car
Upgraded to the 22 hybrid Highlander loves it.
Just don’t love the MS hybrid tax
was $75 now it’s $88 making her Highlander tag $385 this year

fun times

Good gosh! My TN tags are the price of your tag tax. Given that and the lack if income tax, I’m not sure why anyone lives on the MS side of the TN border.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Good gosh! My TN tags are the price of your tag tax. Given that and the lack if income tax, I’m not sure why anyone lives on the MS side of the TN border.

Overall, MS really is a bad tax state.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Good gosh! My TN tags are the price of your tag tax. Given that and the lack if income tax, I’m not sure why anyone lives on the MS side of the TN border.

You make up for it somewhere else.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

You make up for it somewhere else.

Where, property value? At least that's a part of your net worth.

And yeah property taxes are higher but anywhere decent in MS, property taxes are sky high as well.

MS incentivizes you to live in a cheap house, drive cheap cars and not work. Overembellished, yes, but it's the truth.

 

[Podgy]

Upgraded from a gas CRV to the hybrid. Hybrid is much better: smoother ride, quieter, better gas mileage, fewer trips to get gas, all-wheel drive. Got $3,000 off and 0% financing and 8 years of Honda Care during Covid. It was about $2,500 more than the gas CRV. When will I break even? I don't give a shite. It's a better vehicle.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Where, property value? At least that's a part of your net worth.

And yeah property taxes are higher but anywhere decent in MS, property taxes are sky high as well.

MS incentivizes you to live in a cheap house, drive cheap cars and not work. Overembellished, yes, but it's the truth.

No I don’t disagree with that. I’m just saying that they’ve got to make up their revenue from somewhere else. In other taxes somewhere else. The money to operate the state just doesn’t magically appear.

 

[johnson86-1]

You make up for it somewhere else.

Not really. Mississippi's total tax burden as a percent of income is 10.57% and Tennessee's is 7.76%.

If you look at it by their contribution to GDP, I think Mississippi's is around 9.8% and Tennessee's around 7.6%.

If you look at it on a dollar amount per capita, the difference isn't as stark. Mississippi collects about 7% more per capita than Tennessee in state and local tax revenue.

Tennesse's state and local tax revenue per capita is around $4,200 while Mississippi's is over $4,500.

No I don’t disagree with that. I’m just saying that they’ve got to make up their revenue from somewhere else. In other taxes somewhere else. The money to operate the state just doesn’t magically appear.

It doesn't magically appear, but there is a pretty wide disagreement in discussions about what "operate the state" requires.

That 7% difference in money collected per capita is actually much worse than it appears, because Tennessee has a basically funded pension plan while we have run up $25B in liabilities making promises nobody intended to keep.

 

[dorndawg]

Not really. Mississippi's total tax burden as a percent of income is 10.57% and Tennessee's is 7.76%.

If you look at it by their contribution to GDP, I think Mississippi's is around 9.8% and Tennessee's around 7.6%.

If you look at it on a dollar amount per capita, the difference isn't as stark. Mississippi collects about 7% more per capita than Tennessee in state and local tax revenue.

Tennesse's state and local tax revenue per capita is around $4,200 while Mississippi's is over $4,500.



It doesn't magically appear, but there is a pretty wide disagreement in discussions about what "operate the state" requires.

That 7% difference in money collected per capita is actually much worse than it appears, because Tennessee has a basically funded pension plan while we have run up $25B in liabilities making promises nobody intended to keep.

TL;DR: Mississippi is poor, but we produce elite political thieves

 

[johnson86-1]

Related to the max percentage of EVs we're about to see:

L.A. fires have added another concern for potential EV buyers: Power outages

Growth in EV sales continue to slide, but consumer appetite for hybrids has increased. Range anxiety has been one factor denting EV sales, and another emerged during the L.A. fires when hundreds of thousands of people lost power.

www.latimes.com

Being EV only is not a good place to be during disasters. Definitely still better as a second car for now if you're talking about strict EV and not hybrid.

 

[turkish]

#1. I don't give 2 shíts about the environmental impact of gas or batteries. We're well on our way to spraying our crops with Brawndo the thirst mutilator by 2100 anyway.
#2. Electric motors are considerably more durable and powerful than ice motors.
#3. The technology will continue to advance rapidly and everyone will eventually switch over to some kind of electrified vehicle. True gas cars will be more niche' production vehicles.

There are really 6 major categories of vehicles in the next couple of years and I expect a few to go away sooner than later.

1. Gas powered ice vehicles
2. Diesel powered ice vehicles
3. Hybrid gas/electric vehicles (Prius, F150 Hybrid)
4. Plug-in hybrid gas vehicles (Jeep 4xe, BMW X5xDrive)
5. Electric vehicles (Tesla, Rivian, Etc)
6. Extended range electric vehicles...Electric motors and mid size battery pack with gas generator to recharge the batteries while driving (2025 Ramcharger, 2027 Scout Harvester)

The sixth one is the game changer for us manly men who need huge range and heavy duty towing. Look at the specs on this truck below. This is mofo has near 3/4 ton payload and towing capacity. Built in generator offers 7.2 kw of onboard power so I can park my RV in desert and run both ACs for a week.

You're going to be able to tow a 9-10k lbs RV 350-400 miles with this sucker using 20 gallons of gas. It has 650+ ponies to make it up the hills if you need to pass a Corvette with said RV in tow.

The non towing range will let you drive from Starkville to Chicago without stopping if you can hold your weewee for that long. If you are just cruising back and forth to work from Starkville to Tupelo everyday, you don't need any gas for that since it has 140 miles of electric only range.

All that said, it's pretty ugly (wish they make the body look less ghey) and will have a ton of issues for a few years as they work out the kinks. But I expect most of the other truck manufacturers to follow suit. If you haven't, look up how modern locomotives work... Diesel generators powering electric motors. Nothing pulls like electric motors.

80-90% of my miles are not towing and would probably be electric only with that kind of range. But the other 10-20% are my favorite miles pulling my 8800lbs RV through the rocky mountains with my family, so I drive a F250 with a 6.2 gas engine. The specs on this RAM blow it out of the water for my needs and I can only imagine what it's going to look like when the other manufacturers follow suit. I'm not getting one yet, but I am watching this segment very closely (Well, I actually have a reservation on the Scout Traveller with Harvester gas range extender because its 17ing sweet looking.)

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I’m like you. I just want the most cost effective and reliable vehicles to fit my needs (without needing subsidies factored in). I do sometimes roll my eyes at folks that think saving gasoline in the passenger vehicle sector moves the needle on carbon emissions or our fossil fuels consumption. I also have real concerns with long term electrical grid stability (see the reliability comment above).

 

[Yeti]

I have the F150 powerboost that is hybrid and I really like it. Now I’m only 40k miles in and it may blow up but gas mileage in the city is excellent 25-27 with AC.on If it holds out I’ll be happy. I do like the Scout that’s coming seems like a pretty good set up

 

[mstateglfr]

I Googled "Unsold EV's in Europe" clicked on images and there are many pictures of literally dozens of huge fields of thousands and thousands of unsold and apparently unwanted EV's from numerous "legit" sources. Bloomberg had the most interesting article that I saw.

Is this the 'Chinese EVs sitting at ports for months' issue?
If so...
- that is different from the claim I was responding to.
- yep, new imports did sit at some ports for months.

 

[blacklistedbully]

Sales of all-electric vehicles and hybrid models reached 20% of new car and truck sales in the U.S. for the first time last year — marking a landmark year for “green” vehicles but coming at a slower pace than many had previously anticipated.
Auto data firm Motor Intelligence reports more than 3.2 million “electrified” vehicles were sold last year. That includes 1.9 million hybrid vehicles, including plug-in models, and 1.3 million all-electric models.
Sales of traditional vehicles with gas or diesel internal combustion engines continued to dominate, but declined to 79.8%, falling under 80% for the first time in modern automotive history, according to the data.

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/16/electric-vehicle-ev-hybrid-sales-united-states-2024.html?taid=678914b9163c0e0001b5c16c&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter%7Cmain

I work in an industry heavily into Data Center planning, construction, upgrades, etc. We already do not have enough electricity to power the # of DC's we need. Getting them approved is often a battle with cities because of the immense amount of power these DC's require, and those requirements are going up at an ever rapid pace.

If we want to lead the world, or even keep up with competitors on AI, we'll need those DC's to handle the increased data requirements. The only way EV's can ever be a realistic mainstream solution is if the number of charging stations are vastly increased. Increasing those, places more and more demand on power grids.

Barring some leap in technology not on anyone's horizon as far as I know, we aren't remotely close to being able to meet the power demands necessitated by a significant increase of EV's in use.