FC/OT: Math is hard. For everyone it seems.

LionJim

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Oct 12, 2021
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Maybe the kids should work harder? I mean, test scores in the 40's and 50's? Yikes.
My kids used the Singapore system in their day. I actually reviewed it for their ES principal and I recall thinking it was better than decent. No idea what it is like now though. But in the end you got to pick something and forge ahead. And remember: rote drill isn’t everything, but it has a place in mathematics education that you cannot eliminate. You’ve got to put time and thought into your math.
 

Bison13

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Oct 13, 2021
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My kids used the Singapore system in their day. I actually reviewed it for their ES principal and I recall thinking it was better than decent. No idea what it is like now though. But in the end you got to pick something and forge ahead. And remember: rote drill isn’t everything, but it has a place in mathematics education that you cannot eliminate. You’ve got to put time and thought into your math.
Your last sentence is exactly correct. We are going quite the opposite direction in a lot of places though. We are using curriculums that want everything to be group work and discussion regarding problems and less individualized processing and practice. Essentially they’re trying to get you to make groups so that one kid can help teach the others, but in reality it’s become one kid doing all the work and the other three not knowing anything but getting the same grade.
 

laKavosiey-st lion

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My son’s public school finished top 25 in nationals for NAQT a few years ago. They were the top true traditional public school . The rest were charter schools or private schools . TJ always rocks it . They blasted our squad, my son said IDK if we answered one question. Parents have a lot of work to do to sort out the process . Glad mine are well on their way . It’s only getting harder .
Blue Streaks?
 
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Midnighter

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Oct 7, 2021
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Your last sentence is exactly correct. We are going quite the opposite direction in a lot of places though. We are using curriculums that want everything to be group work and discussion regarding problems and less individualized processing and practice. Essentially they’re trying to get you to make groups so that one kid can help teach the others, but in reality it’s become one kid doing all the work and the other three not knowing anything but getting the same grade.

If you’re referring to Singapore Math it’s absolutely not about ‘groups’ of people - it’s about how an individual sees and manipulates numbers. So early on, it’s knowing number bonds (which sets of numbers can you add together to make 10 or 20) and breaking bigger numbers into smaller ones so when problems become more difficult you can take something like 247 x 6 and think (6 x 200) + (6 x 40) + (6 x 7). Nothing at all to do with people groupthink.
 

PSU Mike

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Oct 6, 2021
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Soapbox time. We lack sufficient numbers of people that really get their kicks from taking things apart, figuring out how they work, applying that learning to similar scenarios, then doing it again to expand even further. And I mean that in a general sense. There’s too much desire to just know an answer, which leads to no independent thought, and no hope when encountering a new situation if Siri doesn’t understand the question you ask.

94% of the college-educated population doesn’t do much critical thinking outside of work (trust my number, I’m a statistician). It just astounds me how so many people just turn off their brains. Good or bad mine keeps running, and keeps applying what I learned in one place to another. I think I’m fortunate. Most think I’m weird for it.

So back to the subject. Any method of teaching math — or anything else — to my kid that makes the light go on regarding how things are connected gets a passing grade in my book.
 

Bison13

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If you’re referring to Singapore Math it’s absolutely not about ‘groups’ of people - it’s about how an individual sees and manipulates numbers. So early on, it’s knowing number bonds (which sets of numbers can you add together to make 10 or 20) and breaking bigger numbers into smaller ones so when problems become more difficult you can take something like 247 x 6 and think (6 x 200) + (6 x 40) + (6 x 7). Nothing at all to do with people groupthink.
no its not, we dont use that in MD, but thats how many 'good' teachers who understand math do when the kids come in for extra help. The school system wants us to sit kids in pods so they can 'discuss' each problem. There is very little individualized practice. Too many games to learn math too, never enough understanding of the process to get the answer
 
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Catch1lion

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I would guess some of the educators on the board have been following this thread. Just a quick question. What's up with a doctor's note to allot kids extra time for exams? I could understand this to some degree through high school. But on the college level at PSU we have students requiring additional time. A few kids can't take an exam sitting in a swivel base chair. We are so screwed.
 

PSUAXE70

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Oct 12, 2021
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I would guess some of the educators on the board have been following this thread. Just a quick question. What's up with a doctor's note to allot kids extra time for exams? I could understand this to some degree through high school. But on the college level at PSU we have students requiring additional time. A few kids can't take an exam sitting in a swivel base chair. We are so screwed.
Students who are identified as special education students are eligible, by law, for accommodations. The most common accommodation was extra time for tests because the student knew the material but was slow to process the question and answer it. This was mostly appropriate but in our wealthy school district we had parents who gamed the system to get their non special ed children more time. On the other end I had a deaf student who had an assistant with him in class to sign for him. The young man was a good student who hoped to be an architect. He was on his way. The special education rules are cumbersome but for some kids they are profoundly valuable.
 

Bison13

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I would guess some of the educators on the board have been following this thread. Just a quick question. What's up with a doctor's note to allot kids extra time for exams? I could understand this to some degree through high school. But on the college level at PSU we have students requiring additional time. A few kids can't take an exam sitting in a swivel base chair. We are so screwed.

Students who are identified as special education students are eligible, by law, for accommodations. The most common accommodation was extra time for tests because the student knew the material but was slow to process the question and answer it. This was mostly appropriate but in our wealthy school district we had parents who gamed the system to get their non special ed children more time. On the other end I had a deaf student who had an assistant with him in class to sign for him. The young man was a good student who hoped to be an architect. He was on his way. The special education rules are cumbersome but for some kids they are profoundly valuable.
As AXE said, some with IEP's do get the extra time, they have been tested and approved for this. A DR's note alone should not, unless maybe in the case of a diagnosed concussion.

Unfortunately AXE is also right in that more and more people are getting their kid an IEP or 504 plan to game the system.
 

laKavosiey-st lion

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Oct 30, 2021
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I would guess some of the educators on the board have been following this thread. Just a quick question. What's up with a doctor's note to allot kids extra time for exams? I could understand this to some degree through high school. But on the college level at PSU we have students requiring additional time. A few kids can't take an exam sitting in a swivel base chair. We are so screwed.
Not raising pussboys isn’t that difficult damn
 
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BW Lion

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Oct 14, 2021
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The program at my kids' school is Singapore Math, which is more about strategies to solve problems by re-grouping and breaking down numbers/problems instead of rote memorization (which is how I learned). It has a steep learning curve but once you 'get it' the kids seem to do pretty well with it. Daughter has always been a bit math averse but she's warming up to it; still, we do a once a week private session with a school teacher and in the summer she has a packet to work on (mastering previous year's work and learning a bit about what's to come). Even with all that her test scores weren't high enough in math for the Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth summer math program (but she did score high enough on the written/verbal test to take the language arts and history/social sciences courses, which she will be doing for a second year this summer).
Does your daughter like games?

Once math problems are turned into games, they become not only fun but addictive. The connection didn’t occur to me until 7th grade.

That said, equal exposure to the arts is important.
 
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TiogaLion

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Oct 31, 2021
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Ok, here is a link to the PA standards for each subject and grade. At this link are the actual standards that all PA students get tested on starting in the third grade. On the left side choose the grade you'd like to review (expand using the view more button), and below that choose the subject (again the view more button is available). You'll see the standards that are to be taught at each grade for each subject.

Next, suppose your student is behind in a skill, say addition and subtraction, and consider the third grade standards for teaching multiplication, division, and fractions but some of the children haven't mastered addition? The administration, and the parents, typical response is "keep pushing them forward".

See link below: There is a lot of information at this link. For parents of K-12 students you should study this carefully.

 
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laKavosiey-st lion

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Young Son 2 wore a zack mills jersey to the beav, zack got booed, 2 took off his jersey, problem solved
 

Moogy

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Nov 23, 2021
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The program at my kids' school is Singapore Math, which is more about strategies to solve problems by re-grouping and breaking down numbers/problems instead of rote memorization (which is how I learned). It has a steep learning curve but once you 'get it' the kids seem to do pretty well with it. Daughter has always been a bit math averse but she's warming up to it; still, we do a once a week private session with a school teacher and in the summer she has a packet to work on (mastering previous year's work and learning a bit about what's to come). Even with all that her test scores weren't high enough in math for the Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth summer math program (but she did score high enough on the written/verbal test to take the language arts and history/social sciences courses, which she will be doing for a second year this summer).

"Singapore Math" is basically the same concept as Common Core. But I bet relabeling all Common Core as "Singapore Math" would make it more palatable to those who recoil at Common Core because the American government may have had a hand in creating it. Here, many folks utilize Russian School of Mathematics as an outside resource to advance in mathematics. Most of my sons' peers do it, but we haven't found it necessary, as they're keeping up with the Russian Math kids just fine without it. Definitely don't want to overdo it with the expectations/workload. Let them enjoy being kids.
 

Moogy

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Nov 23, 2021
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On the somewhat related topic of science, and standardized testing, at the end of last year (9th grade), my older son took the state standardized testing in science (biology). Kids have to get a certain score in that test in order to eventually graduate. They can take it multiple years to get a "passing score," if needed. 9th grade is the first testing year. Scale is 440-560. Passing is a lowly 470. 470 places you on the border of "Not Meeting Expectations" and "Partially Meeting Expectations" (other categories are "Meeting Expectations" and "Exceeding Expectations").

He earned a 560 ... so "perfect," though he got one question wrong. After congratulating him, I kiddingly said "hey, you missed one ... what the heck happened?" His response was "I'm not good at biology." Dude, if you're not good at biology and you scored a perfect scaled score, these other kids must be drooling on the test. And we're in MA, with the most educated populace and the best educational system (arguably).
 

laKavosiey-st lion

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Yeah, basically calling kids with learning disabilities pu$$boys puts you up there with Mother Teresa.
Where did I do that? I’ll admit I skimmed the thread. Def not talking down on special needs bros, I work with one every day.
 

Catch1lion

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Oct 12, 2021
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Math is hard for AI Tutor . 😂.
2/17/24 WSJ. ChatGPT proves weak in some basic math . AI that is based on large language models, Khanmigo , struggles with math .
Khanmigo made frequent basic arithmetic errors , miscalculating subtraction problems such as 343 minus 17. It also didn’t consistently know how to round answers or calculate square roots.
“Asking ChatGPT to do math is sort of asking a goldfish to ride a bicycle -Professor Tom McCoy Yale.
 
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