FC/OT: Passenger jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Potomac River/Reagan National…

[psuro]

200' is very close...
the FAA defines a near miss as within 500'.

So, even if the helicopter was 200' lower it should have been concerning.

That is one of the reasons I think the helicopter pilot thought (s)he supoosed to be following the plane that was taking off and was not looking for a plane that was landing.

Here are the minimum safe altitudes per FAR 91 (the bold italics is mine)

91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.​

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:


(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—
(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and
(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.

 

[Tgar]

Anybody here listen the Smerconish show this morning with the Navy / Commercial pilot describing flight ops in and out of Reagan? Tight, short, nerve wracking, etc. He has always been stunned they allow for so many military helicopter flights in and around the airport.

 

[Bwifan]

Anybody here listen the Smerconish show this morning with the Navy / Commercial pilot describing flight ops in and out of Reagan? Tight, short, nerve wracking, etc. He has always been stunned they allow for so many military helicopter flights in and around the airport.

Have listened to several pilots talk about the approach into Reagan... very difficult and this was not the most difficult. Landing north to south is the most difficult very taxing and stressful with lots of twists and hard turns.

 

[PSU87]

Have listened to several pilots talk about the approach into Reagan... very difficult and this was not the most difficult. Landing north to south is very taxing and stressful with lots of twists and hard turns.

Family friend that is a pilot said Reagan and San Diego were his two worst....

 

[Metal Mike]

I am a former Army helicopter pilot. One thing I have learned over the years is early speculation of what caused an accident is usually wrong. It takes time to unravel all the mistakes that were made to find out what happened and why. And yes there is usually more than one mistake involved. I have read reports (unconfirmed) that the helicopter crew was wearing Night Vision Goggles (NVGs). NFGs are a great aid when out in the woods without any lights, but in Washington D.C (and VA) area I would think there would be a lot of lights. These lights make using NVGs much harder. We will have to wait for the final report which may take months.

 

[psuro]

I am a former Army helicopter pilot. One thing I have learned over the years is early speculation of what caused an accident is usually wrong. It takes time to unravel all the mistakes that were made to find out what happened and why. And yes there is usually more than one mistake involved. I have read reports (unconfirmed) that the helicopter crew was wearing Night Vision Goggles (NVGs). NFGs are a great aid when out in the woods without any lights, but in Washington D.C (and VA) area I would think there would be a lot of lights. These lights make using NVGs much harder. We will have to wait for the final report which may take months.

NVG in heavy light pollution is blinding - about the same as walking at night and all of a sudden someone shines flashlight directly in your eyes.

 

[slwlion01]

That's not entirely true. The airspace is controlled by the tower. The tower's main purpose is to control spacing within a certain proximity of the tower. A commercial jet, military aircraft and even general aviation planes are controlled by the tower or ATC (depending on their location within the airspace).

The helo would have reported to the Tower their position prior to entering the airspace and gained access to that airspace from the ATC that controls it (the tower). As long as they have approval to enter the airspace, they have every right to be there.

Couple of other thoughts. The CRJ was to land on runway 1 (landing on a heading of 010 on a compass). He was asked by tower to circle and land on 33 (a 330 heading on a compass). So, that brought him outside of where he was expecting to land. If you look at a google map, you will see that Runway 1 is much longer than Runway 33. Runway 33 is 5200 feet - so in order for him to be able to land (and most planes land about 300-400 feet past the end of the runway) and stop within the end of the runway, he had to come in low. That puts him at 400 feet which is the altitude of the helo.

Flying into DCA is like threading a needle. There are a number of restrictions that make traversing through there challenging.

All great points . More of a dog leg to rwy 33 from rwy 01, and I'm quite certain the Helo was restricted to a much lower altitude crossing the Potomac. 200 feet or lower. Terrible, terrible accident.

 

[Midnighter]

I am a former Army helicopter pilot. One thing I have learned over the years is early speculation of what caused an accident is usually wrong. It takes time to unravel all the mistakes that were made to find out what happened and why. And yes there is usually more than one mistake involved. I have read reports (unconfirmed) that the helicopter crew was wearing Night Vision Goggles (NVGs). NFGs are a great aid when out in the woods without any lights, but in Washington D.C (and VA) area I would think there would be a lot of lights. These lights make using NVGs much harder. We will have to wait for the final report which may take months.

NVG has been confirmed by DOD:

Despite President Trump saying the pilots of the Army helicopter bore responsibility for the crash, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth said the crew was "fairly experienced" and carrying out a "required annual night evaluation, they did have night vision goggles."

 

[Bwifan]

NVG has been confirmed by DOD:

Despite President Trump saying the pilots of the Army helicopter bore responsibility for the crash, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth said the crew was "fairly experienced" and carrying out a "required annual night evaluation, they did have night vision goggles."

I watched Hegseth interview this morning and he said the pilots had night vision goggles BUT it has not been determined if they were using them or had them flipped up. Not sure if there has been new information released since that interview that the NVG have been confirmed that the pilots were actively using them.

 

[Midnighter]

I watched Hegseth interview this morning and he said the pilots had night vision goggles BUT it has not been determined if they were using them or had them flipped up. Not sure if there has been new information released since that interview that the NVG have been confirmed that the pilots were actively using them.

Fair; said they had them, though not 100% confirmed that they were using them at the time of the accident.

 

[psuro]

All great points . More of a dog leg to rwy 33 from rwy 01, and I'm quite certain the Helo was restricted to a much lower altitude crossing the Potomac. 200 feet or lower. Terrible, terrible accident.

I did see that the helo altitude is restricted to 200 feet. I would assume that this area of the Potomac is not heavily traversed with boat traffic and/or there is a variance from the Federal Regs regarding altitudes.

In addition to the altitude is a right of way requirement: Also from the Federal Regulations (italics are mine)

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.
Link to an amendment published at 89 FR 92485, Nov. 21, 2024.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories—

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.

(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.

(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

 

[slwlion01]

My wife knows an entire family that was wiped out. Husband, Wife 2 daughters gone. Was at the oldest daughters baby shower. You can't get your arms around it.

Just awful.

Here are the minimum safe altitudes per FAR 91 (the bold italics is mine)

91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.​

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:


(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—
(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and
(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.

Again, I agree. The helo may have even been looking at the aircraft that was 2-5 miles in trail. Still don't know how they missed seeing the aircraft on dog leg to 33. A terrible tragedy.

 

[slwlion01]

I am a former Army helicopter pilot. One thing I have learned over the years is early speculation of what caused an accident is usually wrong. It takes time to unravel all the mistakes that were made to find out what happened and why. And yes there is usually more than one mistake involved. I have read reports (unconfirmed) that the helicopter crew was wearing Night Vision Goggles (NVGs). NFGs are a great aid when out in the woods without any lights, but in Washington D.C (and VA) area I would think there would be a lot of lights. These lights make using NVGs much harder. We will have to wait for the final report which may take months.

Agree. first reported the goggles were on board and then reported they were being worn. They had an RA several days prior to this incident at the same airport, concerning a helicopter.

 

[LionJim]

Delete, ffs.

 

[psuro]

Delete, ffs.

 

[psuro]

OK so I have to say something about this 200' altitude limitation.

Airflow around the wing tips is very turbulent and sinks. This creates "dirty air" under the airplane. A slower moving plane with flaps extended, creates a lot of drag and dirty air. It appears the 200' altitude is a published altitude, but cutting underneath an airliner as it approaches landing, especially in a helo just does not seem like a good idea. Helos are less stable than fixed wing aircraft, so getting caught up in this jet wash as it sinks is simply nuts.

I would like to see more info on the published altitudes for helos.

 

[DaytonRickster]

My company had an employee on this flight. 14+ year sales executive. I did not know him but other I know did.

There was a young lady on the flight who was a junior at Cedarville University (Dayton area). She had been in Wichita for her grandfathers funeral and was flying into DC to catch the connector back to Dayton. Now her parents have another funeral to attend if they locate her body. No doubt there will be many sad stories coming out of this tragedy. Pray for the families.

 

[DaytonRickster]

My wife knows an entire family that was wiped out. Husband, Wife 2 daughters gone. Was at the oldest daughters baby shower. You can't get your arms around it.

So very sad.

 

[Pennstatel0]

Anybody here listen the Smerconish show this morning with the Navy / Commercial pilot describing flight ops in and out of Reagan? Tight, short, nerve wracking, etc. He has always been stunned they allow for so many military helicopter flights in and around the airport.

That’s my reaction. Why are the helos training there in the first place? It’s come out that there have been at least 3 near misses in the past year. I’m no expert on aviation safety, but this seems like it was an accident waiting to happen. When you have a miniscule margin for error, a small error can be fatal.

I know that the Army will state that they were training in the environment that they would be operating in. One solution is to have minimal operations near dca.

I’m guessing that will be the solution. Minimize helo flights near dca. That will make some piliticians and federal unhappy that they need to travel by car, or a helo route that avoids dca, but it’s the safe answer

 

[Bwifan]

That’s my reaction. Why are the helos training there in the first place? It’s come out that there have been at least 3 near misses in the past year. I’m no expert on aviation safety, but this seems like it was an accident waiting to happen. When you have a miniscule margin for error, a small error can be fatal.

I know that the Army will state that they were training in the environment that they would be operating in. One solution is to have minimal operations near dca.

I’m guessing that will be the solution. Minimize helo flights near dca. That will make some piliticians and federal unhappy that they need to travel by car, or a helo route that avoids dca, but it’s the safe answer

Training is a "unique" word here used by the military. Training is getting additional hours, its not always about "training" a newbie although 1 of the pilots may have been earning his certification on this flight. The pilot(s) flying in this airspace and route have to go through additonal rigorous certification and training. Military pilots have stated just because you have a helo pilots license in the military doesn't allow you to pilot a helo through that airspace in DC and route through Reagan airspace. It requires a high degree of expertise and certification.

 

[ChandlerPearce58]

Maybe it's not a place where they should be doing training flights.

I know in the 60s and 70s Air Force #1 flew to ABE (Lehigh Valley) for their "touch and go" practice since much fewer flights. Honestly not sure if this still occurs because of runway length and larger aircraft.

 

[manatree]

Anybody here listen the Smerconish show this morning with the Navy / Commercial pilot describing flight ops in and out of Reagan? Tight, short, nerve wracking, etc. He has always been stunned they allow for so many military helicopter flights in and around the airport.

Have listened to several pilots talk about the approach into Reagan... very difficult and this was not the most difficult. Landing north to south is the most difficult very taxing and stressful with lots of twists and hard turns.

Maintaining a high volume commercial airport so close to three top national security targets has been a questionable decision for decades.

 

[BriantheLion]

I know in the 60s and 70s Air Force #1 flew to ABE (Lehigh Valley) for their "touch and go" practice since much fewer flights. Honestly not sure if this still occurs because of runway length and larger aircraft.

AF1 has been routinely practicing at Harrisburg International for at least the last several years.

 

[kgilbert78]

I've seen it

AF1 has been routinely practicing at Harrisburg International for at least the last several years.

I've seen it at John Glenn/Port Columbus a couple of times.

 

[NittPicker]

Maintaining a high volume commercial airport so close to three top national security targets has been a questionable decision for decades.

I don't claim to know anything about commercial airline logistics but it seems they could move some flights to Dulles. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of politicians against that since DCA in closer and more convenient. When push comes to shove, a lot of pols would sacrifice a bit of public safety if it made their owns lives easier.

 

[Catch1lion]

Amazing how small the world can truly be at times . Unfortunately a few posters here directly affected . My daughter’s co-worker skated with a lot of these competitors growing up and knew some of the coaches . She is obviously devastated . Prayers to all .

 

[LionJim]

delete, ffs

 

[manatree]

I don't claim to know anything about commercial airline logistics but it seems they could move some flights to Dulles. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of politicians against that since DCA in closer and more convenient. When push comes to shove, a lot of pols would sacrifice a bit of public safety if it made their owns lives easier.

Especially since Dulles is outside the beltway and the Los Angeles style traffic. Don’t know if people have the gumption to beef up the Metro service to Dulles seeing how it took them 60 years to get one line there in the first place,

 

[LionJim]

Delete. Having an awkward day.

 

[[email protected]]

Delete, ffs.

Are you possessed?

 

[CDLionFL]

Family friend that is a pilot said Reagan and San Diego were his two worst....

Flying into SD can be a bit unnerving because it looks like you're weaving through the downtown buildings to get to the airport.

 

[PSU87]

Flying into SD can be a bit unnerving because it looks like you're weaving through the downtown buildings to get to the airport.

Exactly. You drop in over the mountains and you feel like you can reach out and touch the people on the condo balconies.

Add to that it's a single runway airport, and there's nothing you can do to avoid cross wind landings.

One flight I was on the pilot tried twice and had to abort. Came on the intercom and said crosswinds were bad, but he was going to try one more time then divert.

I remember thinking "can we divert now please?" We made it.

 

[rigi19040]

100% - why is a U.S. Army helicopter directly in the glide path of a landing passenger plane at 300’……something very wrong here.

Female pilot

 

[Erial_Lion]

Delete. Having an awkward day.

Every time you do it is one time closer to being able to use the long awaited Delete button…

 

[Nittering Nabob]

Female pilot

That isn't important. The pilot was allegedly on a night training recertification exercise. I want to know more about the instructor.

 

[Nitt1300]

Female pilot

Female pilot

drop dead

 

[LionJim]

Every time you do it is one time closer to being able to use the long awaited Delete button…

Taking one for the team.

 

[psuro]

Exactly. You drop in over the mountains and you feel like you can reach out and touch the people on the condo balconies.

Add to that it's a single runway airport, and there's nothing you can do to avoid cross wind landings.

One flight I was on the pilot tried twice and had to abort. Came on the intercom and said crosswinds were bad, but he was going to try one more time then divert.

I remember thinking "can we divert now please?" We made it.

I believe there is also a 500' obstruction on the approach to runway 27- a parking garage. it created quite an issue when it was built.

 

[PSU87]

Taking one for the team.

And what are you doing to bring back thread view, eh?

 

[LionJim]

And what are you doing to bring back thread view, eh?

Damn, I had hoped the board had forgotten that I was the one who volunteered to be the point man towards bringing back Thread View. But I’ve got a plan. Basically, it’s “Thanks for bringing back the Delete Button, Tom. While you’re at it, why not bring back Thread View? It’s just a matter of clicking one additional button.” I’m a long-game guy.