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Lurker123

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I can't form an opinion based on past performance and then change it as the season unfolds? Just because you seem incapable of taking on new data doesn't mean I am. And maybe I'm occasionally right. I called us beating Clemson in 2022, and knew we wouldn't in '23 or '21.

Changing it as the season unfolds? That sounds suspiciously like positive spin and rewording of "being overly optimistic in preseason and then coming back to reality during the season."

Perhaps it's not that someone doesn't want to take on new data, as we've seen this overhyped "data" pretty consistently for years, only to have to change or opinions "as the season unfolds".
 
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JoeMorrisonLives

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Probably a LOT, unless you think the AAC and MEAC defenses compare favorably to SEC defenses?
The ability to find the hole, accelerate and fall forward is universal. They were doubtless behind smaller and slower OL, doesn't mean its like comparing high school to the NFL, Mario Anderson averaged 6.3 yards at Div 2 Newberry, and had 4.9 yards per carry here, when he averaged contact behind the LOS at one point. You think there's more difference between North Texas and here than Newberry and here?
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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Changing it as the season unfolds? That sounds suspiciously like positive spin and rewording of "being overly optimistic in preseason and then coming back to reality during the season."

Perhaps it's not that someone doesn't want to take on new data, as we've seen this overhyped "data" pretty consistently for years, only to have to change or opinions "as the season unfolds".
I was talking about my opinion on OU.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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We're not losing to Georgia this year. I'll take a wager on that one.

I'll agree with you to a point. If we can run the ball consistently and our defense has greatly improved, we can stay close with any team on any given day.
One thing I can guarantee, is by the end of the regular season, we'll still own the bread to head with Texas!
 

Lurker123

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The ability to find the hole, accelerate and fall forward is universal. They were doubtless behind smaller and slower OL, doesn't mean its like comparing high school to the NFL, Mario Anderson averaged 6.3 yards at Div 2 Newberry, and had 4.9 yards per carry here, when he averaged contact behind the LOS at one point. You think there's more difference between North Texas and here than Newberry and here?

I think there's a world of difference between MEAC and AAC defense and the ones he'll face in the SEC.

I think this is a given.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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If our defense has greatly improved, and if we can run consistently. (That means our OL and RB's will ha e greatly improved.)

We then just need our rs FR qb to play like rattler while our wr's greatly improve.

When you list it all out, it seems more daunting.
Rattler had less than 1.5 seconds to pass. Do you get it yet that an average QB can do better with 3 seconds than a superstar with less than 1.5? If our OL improves to just average, all Sellers had to do is be a game manager and our passing game will most likely be better than having a superstar buried before he can look at his second progression.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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I think there's a world of difference between MEAC and AAC defense and the ones he'll face in the SEC.

I think this is a given.
Okay, and what does that translate to in ypc? I'm thinking it's reasonable to expect 4.5 from a got that did 6 at North Texas if the OL carries their weight.
 

Lurker123

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Rattler had less than 1.5 seconds to pass. Do you get it yet that an average QB can do better with 3 seconds than a superstar with less than 1.5? If our OL improves to just average, all Sellers had to do is be a game manager and our passing game will most likely be better than having a superstar buried before he can look at his second progression.

Of course. It's always that easy replacing the best qb to ever play at your school.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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Of course. It's always that easy replacing the best qb to ever play at your school.
It's not about the QB, it's about net production from the QB position. Was Shaw better than Rattler? No, but he won more games. Biggest difference between the two was the OL Shaw was behind and the defense he was with. Again, Rattler had less than 1.5 seconds to pass, an average QB would be more effective with 3 seconds. If Rattler had 3 seconds, he could've turned in a second team SEC year behind only Daniels. It's a team sport, remember?
 

Lurker123

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It's not about the QB, it's about net production from the QB position. Was Shaw better than Rattler? No, but he won more games. Biggest difference between the two was the OL Shaw was behind and the defense he was with. Again, Rattler had less than 1.5 seconds to pass, an average QB would be more effective with 3 seconds. If Rattler had 3 seconds, he could've turned in a second team SEC year behind only Daniels. It's a team sport, remember?

I understand the concept that better talent around you can make a player better.

I just find it entertaining that you think one of our weaknesses is suddenly going to become so strong that it can carry other positions through such a drop-off.
 

Lurker123

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Okay, well that's who I'm talking about. If they're better overall, even with the increase in competition week in and week out, I can change my opinion.

That is what I was joking about. You tend to come across as stating your hopes as facts. Then drop a comment that you're open to changing your mind once the minor thing of actually playing the games comes around.

I am pretty sure you will change your opinion on our team being "top half of the SEC at most positions" as the season progresses.

I also have little doubt you'll be saying something similar again come next August.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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I understand the concept that better talent around you can make a player better.

I just find it entertaining that you think one of our weaknesses is suddenly going to become so strong that it can carry other positions through such a drop-off.
Again, each of those players I listed were strong individually, but they weren't in the field together. Lee got hurt playing Tackle, so he was playing against faster players than he was used to, Henry got rolled by Fugar, so no reason to think we'll get hit with them getting hurt again because both were strange situations. This is why I asked you go by each returning OLineman that was good last year and day why you think they won't be good this year. And instead, you just keep on being dismissive and sarcastic.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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That is what I was joking about. You tend to come across as stating your hopes as facts. Then drop a comment that you're open to changing your mind once the minor thing of actually playing the games comes around.

I am pretty sure you will change your opinion on our team being "top half of the SEC at most positions" as the season progresses.

I also have little doubt you'll be saying something similar again come next August.
Not fact, but my opinions are supported by facts. I'm asking for other facts that support your opinion and instead you're just dismissing mine. Why should your opinions supported by nothing but pessimism be better than my opinions based on verifiable trackrecords of the individual players that make up our team?
 

Lurker123

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Again, each of those players I listed were strong individually, but they weren't in the field together. Lee got hurt playing Tackle, so he was playing against faster players than he was used to, Henry got rolled by Fugar, so no reason to think we'll get hit with them getting hurt again because both were strange situations. This is why I asked you go by each returning OLineman that was good last year and day why you think they won't be good this year. And instead, you just keep on being dismissive and sarcastic.

I do. For good reason.

Since all those players weren't on the field together, do we have chemistry issues, or is that just OU?
 

Lurker123

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Not fact, but my opinions are supported by facts. I'm asking for other facts that support your opinion and instead you're just dismissing mine. Why should your opinions supported by nothing but pessimism be better than my opinions based on verifiable trackrecords of the individual players that make up our team?

Based on nothing but pessimism? You are the one arguing that MEAC and AAC players are making us "loaded", right?
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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That is what I was joking about. You tend to come across as stating your hopes as facts. Then drop a comment that you're open to changing your mind once the minor thing of actually playing the games comes around.

I am pretty sure you will change your opinion on our team being "top half of the SEC at most positions" as the season progresses.

I also have little doubt you'll be saying something similar again come next August.
Do you think a defensive backfield that stifled Clemson and Kentucky's passing games when both scored over 30 against one another is bad? Do you think a first team LB paired with a Butkus watchlist player is bad? Do you think one of the deepest DT rooms in the SEC according to every analyst I've seen voice an opinion on it is bad? Do you think Simon isn't a good TE? Do you think Kennard, Stewart and Edmond aren't capable of getting to the passer? What OLinemen individually do you think are below average. I don't think you've researched to form your opinion as much as I have to form mine.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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I do. For good reason.

Since all those players weren't on the field together, do we have chemistry issues, or is that just OU?
All of them played with Lee at center and communicated well with him, and center of the lynch pin for OL cohesion.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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Based on nothing but pessimism? You are the one arguing that MEAC and AAC players are making us "loaded", right?
I said there isn't so much difference they can't be expected to average 4.5 ypc if the OL does their job. You haven't offered what you expect the drop of to be our why you expect it.
 

Lurker123

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Do you think a defensive backfield that stifled Clemson and Kentucky's passing games when both scored over 30 against one another is bad? Do you think a first team LB paired with a Butkus watchlist player is bad? Do you think one of the deepest DT rooms in the SEC according to every analyst I've seen voice an opinion on it is bad? Do you think Simon isn't a good TE? Do you think Kennard, Stewart and Edmond aren't capable of getting to the passer? What OLinemen individually do you think are below average. I don't think you've researched to form your opinion as much as I have to form mine.

Hate to use Kentucky/Clemson bowl game stats as bowls are pretty much garbage with all the opt outs.

But you list out a bunch of "facts" that absolutely can't ever be argued. They are infallible. :)

Where you completely lost me was when you listed all these supposed facts, while I'm just all "pessimism", and then you predict a whopping one game difference between us. I say 5 wins, you say 6.

Then when called on that, you follow up with predicting anywhere from 6 to 9 wins.

Congratulations on really nailing that down to a specific number.

I don't think you are very confident in your own "facts", so why should anyone else be?
 

Lurker123

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All of them played with Lee at center and communicated well with him, and center of the lynch pin for OL cohesion.

Okay. There you go. Despite not playing together, chemistry is only a problem for our opponents, not us.

A very good summation of all our discussions.
 

Lurker123

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I said there isn't so much difference they can't be expected to average 4.5 ypc if the OL does their job. You haven't offered what you expect the drop of to be our why you expect it.

Not sure what the drop will be, but VERY confident in the "why". I've stated that more than once.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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Hate to use Kentucky/Clemson bowl game stats as bowls are pretty much garbage with all the opt outs.

But you list out a bunch of "facts" that absolutely can't ever be argued. They are infallible. :)

Where you completely lost me was when you listed all these supposed facts, while I'm just all "pessimism", and then you predict a whopping one game difference between us. I say 5 wins, you say 6.

Then when called on that, you follow up with predicting anywhere from 6 to 9 wins.

Congratulations on really nailing that down to a specific number.

I don't think you are very confident in your own "facts", so why should anyone else be?
Maybe you could argue then if you tried, but for some reason you don't seem interested to argue facts. You seem to rather be a nitpick jerk, teeming with condescension, offering nothing but naysaying, and trying to twist my wires instead of arguing in good faith. We have 5 OL that have competed at a high end individually, and they put it on film and in the stats, and you just want to say they suck because you want to lump them together with the mess of walk-ons that rotated in and out.
 

Lurker123

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Maybe you could argue then if you tried, but for some reason you don't seem interested to argue facts. You seem to rather be a nitpick jerk, teeming with condescension, offering nothing but naysaying, and trying to twist my wires instead of arguing in good faith. We have 5 OL that have competed at a high end individually, and they put it on film and in the stats, and you just want to say they suck because you want to lump them together with the mess of walk-ons that rotated in and out.

There you go, messing fact and opinion up again.

Didn't say they sucked. I said to temper expectations.

How about come up with a prediction that doesn't cover the entire range of possibilities, and people might think you have a little confidence in your own opinion/facts.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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There you go, messing fact and opinion up again.

Didn't say they sucked. I said to temper expectations.

How about come up with a prediction that doesn't cover the entire range of possibilities, and people might think you have a little confidence in your own opinion/facts.
Too much unknowns, but we aren't ONLY a 5- win team.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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There you go, messing fact and opinion up again.

Didn't say they sucked. I said to temper expectations.

How about come up with a prediction that doesn't cover the entire range of possibilities, and people might think you have a little confidence in your own opinion/facts.
And just to be clear I mean too many unknowns across all teams. Ole Miss could suddenly learn how to win on the road. LSU's defense had no reason to struggle last year and could turn it around. Bama could react to a be coach how Florida did to Ron Zook. Klubnik could basically become the player Clemson thinks he for some reason is. Oklahoma could fall apart in year three under skeletor.
 

Lurker123

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Too much unknowns, but we aren't ONLY a 5- win team.

Okay, to both responses.

This is a good first step. After pouring over any fact you can get your hands on to convince yourself we'll be better, this last post acknowledges that other teams are acti e and evolving too.

I disagree strongly with your notion that chemistry is an issue for our opponents and not us, but at least here you acknowledge that they also may be better or worse.

So, basically, what this boils down to is that you're so confident in your argument that not willing to actually get specific on what you think the results will be.

I am not going to be swayed by someone e who has so little faith in their own argument.
 

JoeMorrisonLives

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Okay, to both responses.

This is a good first step. After pouring over any fact you can get your hands on to convince yourself we'll be better, this last post acknowledges that other teams are acti e and evolving too.

I disagree strongly with your notion that chemistry is an issue for our opponents and not us, but at least here you acknowledge that they also may be better or worse.

So, basically, what this boils down to is that you're so confident in your argument that not willing to actually get specific on what you think the results will be.

I am not going to be swayed by someone e who has so little faith in their own argument.
Okay, but we are healthy after losing 6 OL. A healthy OL puts us in position to compete more. We don't need to be better, healthier will suffice to improve. But also, we are better at most positions. I didn't say chemistry is the end ask be all, I said it's one thing predictive that is the reason why replacing 3 OL is a concern. The key with chemistry and communication, the biggest part is center to each player, and we've established those connections. On top of that, we have 5 guys who have started and performed well as individuals against good teams, they're replacing the starters with guys who didn't rotate through like that. I'm saying, for all unknowns from other teams, we still aren't missing a bowl. The unknowns just control the ceiling. Stop patting my hand while refusing to entertain my point, I've said nothing previously which contradicts this post. That is why I say you're arguing in bad faith, instead of taking on what I'm saying, you're caracaturing it to reply. You don't care for my point, you care only how you can trust it to something to wave away.
 

Lurker123

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Okay, but we are healthy after losing 6 OL. A healthy OL puts us in position to compete more. We don't need to be better, healthier will suffice to improve. But also, we are better at most positions. I didn't say chemistry is the end ask be all, I said it's one thing predictive that is the reason why replacing 3 OL is a concern. The key with chemistry and communication, the biggest part is center to each player, and we've established those connections. On top of that, we have 5 guys who have started and performed well as individuals against good teams, they're replacing the starters with guys who didn't rotate through like that. I'm saying, for all unknowns from other teams, we still aren't missing a bowl. The unknowns just control the ceiling. Stop patting my hand while refusing to entertain my point, I've said nothing previously which contradicts this post. That is why I say you're arguing in bad faith, instead of taking on what I'm saying, you're caracaturing it to reply. You don't care for my point, you care only how you can trust it to something to wave away.

I suppose it's true, I don't really care for your point. For example, you didn't say that chemistry is the end all be all, but you did say it's an issue for OU and not for us. I could just as easily say that is arguing in bad faith.

I could also say that offering a prediction of anywhere from 6 to 9 wins is arguing in bad faith. That literally covers the vast majority of possible outcomes.

What it boils down to is that you are combing over any "fact" that you think is going to mean we're better, and wanting other posters to validate your posts. But then you finally admitted that you have no real idea what that means because all our opponents also have unknowns.

I'll say again, I was literally JUST like you. Every question mark for our team was going to be improved on, and every question mark for our opponent would only hurt them. Experience just killed that over time.

Now, I like to look at it like this.

We have 4 easy wins. 3 patsies and vandy. That is our floor.

We have two tossup games. A&m and kentucky

We have 6 games that would be big upsets. OU, Clemson, Missouri, LSU, Alabama and Ole Miss.

I see us winning the easy ones, losing the hard ones and splitting the two toss ups. It really boils down that easily.

Take all your "facts" that you like to dig into, glean all you can, and make a call. Otherwise, just saying that we'll be some vague amount "better" without comparing that to our competition really means nothing. (And making an overly vague prediction just means you have no real confidence in your prognostications)
 

SuperCock99

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My opinion is that we are going to have to be levels above where we were last season to compete with the line up before us.
At this point we are questionable…. Unknown at best. It’s a bad thing to start season after season like this. Like our tires are stuck in the mud.
If we have an “upset” win. Great! But don’t let Tanner use it as hype to carry him into the 2025 without having to make tough decisions on football staff.
 
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JoeMorrisonLives

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I suppose it's true, I don't really care for your point. For example, you didn't say that chemistry is the end all be all, but you did say it's an issue for OU and not for us. I could just as easily say that is arguing in bad faith.

I could also say that offering a prediction of anywhere from 6 to 9 wins is arguing in bad faith. That literally covers the vast majority of possible outcomes.

What it boils down to is that you are combing over any "fact" that you think is going to mean we're better, and wanting other posters to validate your posts. But then you finally admitted that you have no real idea what that means because all our opponents also have unknowns.

I'll say again, I was literally JUST like you. Every question mark for our team was going to be improved on, and every question mark for our opponent would only hurt them. Experience just killed that over time.

Now, I like to look at it like this.

We have 4 easy wins. 3 patsies and vandy. That is our floor.

We have two tossup games. A&m and kentucky

We have 6 games that would be big upsets. OU, Clemson, Missouri, LSU, Alabama and Ole Miss.

I see us winning the easy ones, losing the hard ones and splitting the two toss ups. It really boils down that easily.

Take all your "facts" that you like to dig into, glean all you can, and make a call. Otherwise, just saying that we'll be some vague amount "better" without comparing that to our competition really means nothing. (And making an overly vague prediction just means you have no real confidence in your prognostications)
OL chemistry, like i said, is at least communication with the center, they've all gotten live reps with Lee, and they have more starting experience. So further along on building chemistry, more starts, and each player had proven their effectiveness on the field, just shared the field with lesser guys because of injuries. I don't see what's complicated about that.
 
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