Has Mississippi State Baseball lost it's advantage?...
- Thread starter dawgstudent
- Start date
It was that way for the 2013-2021 run. Plenty of good towns and good coaches. And we brought in tons of talent. Now all of the sudden Starkville is an issue. No. Lemonis is an issue.
As for NIL, Vitello built TN before NIL. He had 1 portal regular In the lineup. He started a senior who was a reliever until this year in game 3. He lost his best pitcher to Wake Forest.
Vitello is a winner. We would rather look for excuses for Lemonis for some reason.
Agree with all of that. Just saying that MSU doesn’t have the advantage we once had in the SEC and it gets a little worse each year. Georgia has come up. Kentucky has come up. Auburn has come up. A players has a lot more really good choices. We have what, 5 SEC National Champions in a row and each from a different school. It’s definitely harder now.
Let's not act like we are what we weren't. Our baseball program was never tip top level, you have to actually win a natty for that. Multiple nattys really. Now y'all want to run the guy off that finally won one. There is nothing more MSU than that. It doesn't matter too much to me since I only follow baseball when we are good. Mine is a semi-objective opinion.
Matching offers doesn’t work. LSU wanted skenes, they made sure they got him. Florida wanted Shelton. They made sure they got him.
go play at Arkansas for 100K, or come here for 150k… kid is coming here.
it’s even worse if all we are doing is matching… goes back to the delusion that if we match our stadium and fan base will win the tie breaker. If we have lost on all the big fish matching… then it’s time to overpay… and change that narrative
Vitello built his team before the nil… he kept it together with the nil.
he lost burns because wake was willing over pay and to go to nearly 7 figures to get him… we should have done the same… national seed and Omaha with that investment
Yes and No. Auburn isn’t in a great spot right now. KY has been good for 2 years so let’s wait and see. And the Georgia/wes lovefest is funny. He was left a ton of talent. But his pitching staff- his forte- was one of the worst in the league.
But TN is the new king. They had to get upset in a super at home or it would be 4 straight CWS. Best coach in the country by a long shot. They are here to stay. Vandy however seems to be coming back to the pack. Just like SC has for a while.
Im sure but everyone is doing that to some degree. But he was in the CWS in 2021 before NIL. And he still lost his Friday guy this year.
We are strong with our NIL offers and are in a good spot bc we don’t have to fight to keep players very hard. The Jordan thing was just a unique instance. Thats a luxury we don’t have in hoops or football.
Then yall deserve what you get. The only people putting Lemons on the "hot seat" are our idiot fans.
You just said it yourself. Yalls constant bitching and moaning is COSTING US CROOTS.
You lost slate as well. He lost his Friday guy for reasons mentioned above
and you continue to back up the nil we have… yet we aren’t getting the big fish. That means our nil isn’t doing what it should. It’s not about making strong offers… it’s about getting kids to campus… so far we can’t pay enough to get the big fish here
you blame Lemonis… again don’t maych the offer… out bi, over pay, over pay big… if our nil is strong let’s unload and get a couple of big fish in and change that narrative
I don’t think we fought to keep slate or even wanted him here. Whether that’s right or wrong it is what it is. But we just don’t have kids we want wanting to leave. Most of these kids aren’t as driven by the highest dollar amount. Lem is the real issue. Read the post from msbamaward
totally disagree.
maybe the kid isn’t driven by the highest dollar amount if they are choosing between 50k or 70k. If they are choosing between 50k and 150k. They’ll choose us. It’s basically what lsu has done to assure they get the guys they want. They outbid by a long shot…. It’s how wake got burns as well
Ok. We are getting beat by NIL. I know that’s the only conclusion you are ever going to agree with.
Well ,can we evaluate the guy who was dead last in the SEC 2 years in a row, to follow up with a road Regional that we lost.. and has a complete rebuild to manage to be competitive next year? I think that’s fair to look at and question. Espically with very little portal movement while teams like UGA have already brought in 13.
Saying all that, I can still easily throw all that out and thank him for the championship. But it is worth talking about and being concerned when other players are hesitant to go here, despite matching NIL funding. That’s just the truth.. the job and program needs to be looked at with unbiassed eyes. (What is the trajectory of the program, and where do you see it going under Lemonis. Are we better than before ,have teams passed us, are we seen as a better team/program to recruits/Fans.. where do we expect to be and where do we want to be.
That’s when you know your answer.
Gene Chizik won a championship at Auburn too
We thought we had skenes. Until lsu went to 7 figures.
lsu, Florida, Texas am, and wake with burns…. If they want someone they aren’t matching offers. We are standing by our nil offers are strong— yet we aren’t getting those guys—- the idea of the nil is to get the kids here—- pay ‘em enough to get em here.
Skenes donated his NIL you dumb m17er. His decision wasn't about NIL.
I look forward every baseball thread to your incoming negative reply and take on it. Do you seriously think that Ron Polk "wasted nearly 2 decades" of brand building and positive exposure for the university, especially at a time when it was getting little to none from football and basketball? 2 SEC Tournament Championships, 3 Regular Season & Tournament Championships, 3 Conference Division Championships, 14 Regionals, 6 College World Series. Not sure if you're a big dumb azz or a troll but I'm leaning toward DA
He donated a portion of it, that’s how much lsu paid over the top to make sure they got him…His decision was all about nil….. lsu outbid everyone but a long shot
the cigar bag boy spits out dumb wrong stuff again…
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Until we land the people we are after we are getting beat with it. It’s like getting beat in free agency in the nfl. If we never land the big free agent and the competition is, then we are getting beat.
you seem to think it’s bc of lemonis.. and I’m not saying he’s not part of the equation… but I’m also saying that if our nil is as strong as we are saying it is… then we can over pay and get some of these guys. Even if as you say, most aren’t about the highest offer, some are… let’s blow someone out of the water with an offer and land one of these difference makers
Going 18-42 in conference over two seasons "costs us croots" moreso than internet super fans bitching.
In his defense, while we did have some accomplishments, most people know Polk checked out after 1990. I think he saw Georgia win the title and then started making excuses instead of making progress. We did get that good 1995 class that was the basis of the 1997-1998 run, but I think that's when he started fighting the NCAA, while LSU was out beginning their reign as SEC and NCAA baseball royalty and thoroughly passing us by.
And we all know he shouldn't have been hired back in 2002. Again, a few accomplishments, but he totally surrendered MS recruiting to Ole Miss that decade and destroyed the program.
I don't fault him for the 1984 choke, the 1985 freak line drive or the 1989 choke, for that matter. He got us there, so he gets credit, that was all program building, and then we were in Omaha in 1990. But with a committed coach, we probably win a title in the 90s. And even without that, had we hired Maneiri in 2002, I think the 00s turn out much differently.
So there's some smoke to that fire.
I’m not looking at everything in a 1 year vacuum. Butch at Auburn has that program rising even though they had a setback this year. The main point is there are a lot of really good coaches and many choices for these kids to make. I know a top baseball recruit in my area and he just didn’t like Starkville. You are going to have some of that. Some of these players just don’t care that we have the best stadium and fan support.
No question. There is a reason there are around 25 good programs in the country. We aren’t gonna get everyone. But then you have a Charlie foster who sounded like a chamber of commerce commercial for Starkville.
I think the key here is that BOTH Lemonis and NIL can collectively be our problem
If we’re saying that State is meeting or exceeding NIL offers from other schools for players that it wants, and Lemonis still can’t seal the deal with these kids, then I have to continue to ridicule Selmon’s decision to keep him.
Your capacity for jumping in threads you supposedly care nothing about is extraordinary
We are matching or making solid offers. We haven’t made the type bid a player can’t refuse. Others have and do.
ill concede that if we had someone bette than Lemonis then maybe we would get the discount or benefit of the doubt.. maybe.. we don’t know this because we haven’t had anyone but Lemonis though
It’s complicated. I’d say we have lost our advantage in the SEC. It will be much harder for us to win SEC Championships going forward, partly because of NIL and partly because of expansion. But I don’t think we have lose our advantage in getting to Omaha or winning a national championship. I’d honestly contend that because of how much gap the SEC continues to put itself between the rest of the country, our odds of Omaha are at least as good, if not better, and our chance of a run to a national championship can be better than it’s ever been. The problem is that the major programs of the past (Stanford, USC, Arizona State, Miami, Cal State Fullerton, etc) are all being replaced by SEC programs. So it just makes the SEC all the more tough. But anyone who finishes 8th in the SEC in a given year has a legit chance to win a national title. You saw it with Florida in the Final 4 this year. And Ole Miss winning in 2022. This would’ve been a real oddity 15 years ago. No longer.
Everyone except Cannizaro. McMahon also never made it under the current format. And Lemonis is the only coach we’ve had in the modern era that actually has multiple Omaha trips.
With college baseball and the postseason, you can’t really acknowledge any data points before 1999 as being relevant to today’s situation. The format change of going to a 64 team field, and going to 100% merit-based regional host sites made it much more difficult to make it to Omaha for teams like MSU. We had a big advantage under the old format.
Since 1999, there have been 6 hires who have coached in the current format:
1) McMahon
3 years
0 CWS
0 Top-8 seeds
1 regional host season
2 super regional appearances
3 regional appearances
2) Polk 2
7 years
1 CWS (0-2 finish)
0 Top 8 seeds
1 regional host season
1 super regional appearance
5 regional appearances
2 missed postseason appearances
3) Cohen
8 years
1 CWS (runner-up finish)
1 Top 8 seed
2 regional host seasons
3 super regional appearances
5 regional appearances
3 missed postseason appearances
4) Cannizarro
1 year
0 CWS
0 Top 8 seeds
0 regional host seasons
1 super regional appearance
1 regional appearance
0 missed postseason appearances
5) Henderson
1 year
1 CWS (T-3rd place finish)
0 Top 8 seeds
0 regional host seasons
1 super regional appearance
1 regional appearance
0 missed postseason appearances
6) Lemonis
5 years
2 CWS (natty, T-5th)
2 Top 8 seeds
2 regional host seasons
2 super regional appearances
3 regional appearances
2 missed postseason appearances
Overall:
25 years
5 CWS (20%)
3 Top 8 seeds (12%)
6 regional host seasons (24%)
10 super regional appearances (40%)
18 regional appearances (72%)
7 missed postseason appearances (28%)
We now have another major shift that is going to shake things up big time with portal / NIL, and MSU is again going to be at a relative disadvantage compared to our immediate competition. So, if you expect Omaha more than twice a decade, there’s not really any historical basis for that.
I’ve also heard it said repeatedly that MSU baseball should never miss the postseason, and should host regionals more often than not. Reality - we have literally missed the postseason more times than we have hosted regionals in the 64-team format.
We’ve actually been a pretty clutch program in the postseason….greatly outperforming general expectations from the seeding and regular season. 10 super regional appearances while only hosting 6 times is evidence of that. Winning super regionals on the road against UVA / Vandy (also and taking UF to the wire with a cobbled together roster) and making the semis in 3 of 5 CWS trips is also further evidence of that. Without that, we’d be nowhere nearly as highly regarded as we are.
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First it was the Polk scholarship shortage. Now it's NIL. The fact is, this isn't an elite program and the excuses never stop. It's a damn good one, but it's not what people try to claim it is. Attendance means nothing, never has. The baseball party in the OF doesn't matter in recruiting much either. It's about winning titles and getting guys to MLB. Something we are not elite at nor are we even close now.
It’s more that we have never had a really good coach outside of cohen. When cohen ran the program we we were so so good. If he had been willing to over sign we would have been even better. Polk was checked out a lot of the time. And Lem isnt cut out for this. Mac led us to 2 Supers but wasnt here long enough.
He has brought in talent. Just don't expect those who have made up their minds about him to acknowledge it.
Btw, despite being very good for us, Yeager actually wasn't drafted.
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