I like this offense better than Leach’s

[blitz2Win]

Well time will tell won’t it ? If the offense struggles this Year, maybe there is something to what I’m saying.

It’s not that I think the backup qb has to start right now, more the reality that this is a business. if we start losing games Arnett is not going to idly stand by, he’s going to shake things up, his job depends on it.

 

[ChE1997]

Those 30 & 40 yard runs won’t be as easy to come by against the rest of our schedule

That would be true if they happened in the first half as well.

And let's see how it plays out. Were they gassed? Or did we settle in and make in game adjustments to what worked?

 

[She Mate Me]

Also, from what i have seen and read about Barbay's system, it fits the talent in Mississippi. Leach needed QB's from out of state that ran his air raid in HS ( like most of texas HS's) with Leach, he could get them because the was a GOD in texas HS football.

Minshew and Rogers are both products of MS HS ball.

 

[maroonmadman]

I know this is only SELA we're talking about but there are some stats that we should take note of.
1. No turnovers. Good job by the offense to hang on to the ball. Good job by Will to not throw the ball to the other guys.
2. 1 penalty. Outstanding. No false starts. No holding. No brainfart penalties to kill drives.
3. No sacks. I'll take it even if it is only SELA.
4. We have a run game. Time will tell if we can do this in the SEC

I'm not about to declare us a 9 - 10 win season but I did like the way we looked for our opening game. We didn't have very many what I would term 'brainfarts.' No false starts, no personal fouls, we played like a well coached team, didn't shoot ourselves in the foot or have any just plain stupid penalties.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[GloryDawg]

This offense is going to thump some folks starting this Saturday.

 

[ChE1997]

Minshew and Rogers are both products of MS HS ball.

so we have one program (brandon) that makes a an air raid capable qb every 4 years.

That's my point...

How many dual threat QB's does MS make each year?

 

[patdog]

Were they gassed? Or did we settle in and make in game adjustments to what worked?

Some of both.

 

[paindonthurt]

It actually was. Every coach is different, but it was very close. Sumlin never ran his QB until Johnny came along because, SHAZAAM, he actually COULD run it, at an effective level, while also being an accurate passer.

It's not as easy as the morons say to just 'go get a running quarterback'. I've been telling ya'll this for years but it hasn't sunk in.

Man why do you have to be such a tool?

 

[ChE1997]

Some of both.

I wish we'd started faster, but it was a first game for this staff and for Arnett. I thought he did well. we ended up winning by what i though we should. And the final score is the one that counts.

Along those lines, it did encourage me for the LSU game that they got worn down by FSU running the ball late in the game.

If we can keep it close until then, that could help us.

 

[She Mate Me]

so we have one program (brandon) that makes a an air raid capable qb every 4 years.

That's my point...

How many dual threat QB's does MS make each year?

Fair enough.

 

[HumpDawgy]

I like big runs and I cannot lie!!!

 

[OG Goat Holder]

so we have one program (brandon) that makes a an air raid capable qb every 4 years.

That's my point...

How many dual threat QB's does MS make each year?

Good question. I initially agree with you. Let's look at the last 10 years (2014-2023):

2014: none
2015: Brady Davis (Memphis), J'Mar Smith (La. Tech), Gardner Minshew is in here, not rated
2016: Keon Howard (USM), Jack Abraham (USM and others)
2017: Myles Brennan (LSU), La'Andre Thomas (Memphis), Jack Walker (Georgia State)
2018: none
2019: KJ Jefferson (Arkansas), John Rhys Plumless (Ole Miss, UCF)
2020: Will Rogers (State)
2021: Luke Altmyer (Ole Miss, Illinois), Ty Keyes (USM)
2022: none
2023: Mack Howard (Utah), Vic Sutton (State - who da fook is this guy??)

So let's condense this down into the players we actually know did something. Minshew, Smith, Abraham, Brennan, Jefferson, Plumlee, Rogers, Altmyer, Keyes. It appears to be 5-4 in favor of the pass-first QBs. But I do think we can all agree that Minshew, Jefferson and Plumlee are the best of the bunch, so that's 2-1 in favor of the runners. Who knows?

I would not have expected that. Of course, this isn't counting guys like Pat White (from AL, I know, but just using as an example) who would have moved positions if not for a guy like Rich Rod. Then if you look into our history, we have Fitzgerald, Dak, Relf, Sleepy, Smith, Bond - those gave us some good moments. Yes, we had good moments in the late 90s but that wasn't due to QB play (and no, Madkin was NOT a runner in the same vein as these others). Then add in Omarr, who Croom should be ashamed about.

Now, add in the possibility of us signing RBs and WRs. It appears that the best route for us is a running offense. I personally still love the Rich Rod West Virginia offense. That was the most fun to watch of any I've ever seen, and would have loved to have seen that at MSU. Malzahn's too. That's the type of offense I want to run.

 

[peewee.sixpack]

I know this is only SELA we're talking about but there are some stats that we should take note of.
1. No turnovers. Good job by the offense to hang on to the ball. Good job by Will to not throw the ball to the other guys.
2. 1 penalty. Outstanding. No false starts. No holding. No brainfart penalties to kill drives.
3. No sacks. I'll take it even if it is only SELA.
4. We have a run game. Time will tell if we can do this in the SEC

I'm not about to declare us a 9 - 10 win season but I did like the way we looked for our opening game. We didn't have very many what I would term 'brainfarts.' No false starts, no personal fouls, we played like a well coached team, didn't shoot ourselves in the foot or have any just plain stupid penalties.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

I am fairly confident SELA did have a sack in the game.

 

[BulldogBlitz]

That's alright, I like Mike Leach 's posts over yours.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

In 2012, Sumlin averaged 38 passes and 41 runs per game. Just because he used some of the Leach / Kingsbury route trees on passing plays does not mean he ran the Air Raid. Leach and Mumme were the only ones to truly run the real Air Raid.

Right. True air raid was very limited. I don't think wazzu has the same season playing in the sec. That good tech team lost to ole miss in the cotton bowl remember that?

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Those stats got padded heavily in the 2nd half. We'll know more what we have a week from now.

If we struggle against Arizona our sec games will be extremely hard. I expect us to be better but really need our line to get after it from the start snd establish the line and dominance. If we don't early than it will be a tough game. I still think we are a couple years with the righ personnel to see what arnett really wants on offense

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Right. True air raid was very limited. I don't think wazzu has the same season playing in the sec. That good tech team lost to ole miss in the cotton bowl remember that?

Leach at Florida, LSU, USC or even Tennessee is likely unstoppable. Like most good offenses when they get good talent.

Just because Leach's personality relegated him to Texas Tech, Wazzou and State, let's not assume his offense wouldn't work as much as anybody else's. He did the same thing every other coach has done at State, which is 8-4. And who knows what he would have done this season, perhaps he matches Jackie and Danny with that 'up' season? We'll never know, but I suspect he'd have succeeded, since he's done that twice before.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Right. True air raid was very limited. I don't think wazzu has the same season playing in the sec. That good tech team lost to ole miss in the cotton bowl remember that?

Of course they wouldn’t have. Just like Dan Mullen’s spread was never going to have the same success at MSU as it did at Florida, because we never have had or ever will have the talent on offense to be that proficient against SEC defenses.

The biggest Air Raid detractors are the ones that seemed to have extremely unrealistic expectations of it to begin with. I liked the Leach hire because I knew it would bring both the program culture and the offense back to at least Mullen level after the disaster of Moorhead, and that’s what happened. We weren’t some offensive juggernaut over Leach’s 3 years, but we were certainly at least back to the level Mullen had us at when he left, and way better than JoMo / Croom. To get beyond those levels requires way better recruiting on offense than we’ve had historically, or a Dak-level diamond in the rough at QB.

 

[lazlow]

Miss ya Coach, but the ability to run a jet-sweep to Tulu is something we’ve missed. Mike Wright’s read-option could win a game this year. We wouldn’t be seeing either in the air raid.

A good, mobile QB would be a handful.

Since we’re talking “handful”…..let’s throw in a couple of 6”5 receivers …..that aren’t true freshmen.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Wrong. It's not difficult to find a QB who runs well but is a less than good passer (Mike Wright, Nick Fitzgerald). But it is EXTREMELY difficult to find a guy who is great at both (Dak, Johnny, Cam).

Go look at the stats out there. Lots of dual guys in the low to mid 60s on completion percentage. Don't need to be 70 or higher. Only the air raid wants that. For instance heisman last year in a modified air raid that does a lot of running was only 66%. Dugan 64%. Wku 64%. Young 64%Jordan Travis 64%.Chase Brice from app state 62. He wasn't really considered dual threat either. Mike was at 57 percent. He's not far off from Brice. They said he's gotten better. He can also run better then Brice. Notable players around him. Spencer sanders that was at ok state. Ewers at Texas. Slovis at Pitt. Milroe at bama. Hell jt daniels at wv under Harrell was only at 61. Emory Jones 62. If you compare guys that also give you a lot of the ground, 60% ballpark is good.

 

[patdog]

Go look at the stats out there. Lots of dual guys in the low to mid 60s on completion percentage. Don't need to be 70 or higher. Only the air raid wants that. For instance heisman last year in a modified air raid that does a lot of running was only 66%. Dugan 64%. Wku 64%. Young 64%Jordan Travis 64%.Chase Brice from app state 62. He wasn't really considered dual threat either. Mike was at 57 percent. He's not far off from Bruce. They said he's gotten better. He can also run better then Brice. Notable players around him. Spencer sanders that was at ok state. Ewers at Texas. Slovis at Pitt. Milroe at bama. Hell jt daniels at wv under Harrell was only at 61. Emory Jones 62. If you compare guys that also give you a lot of the ground, 60% ballpark is good.

You could argue that too high of a completion percentage means you're being too safe with your passes and just taking easy checkdowns that don't really hurt the defense.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Go look at the stats out there. Lots of dual guys in the low to mid 60s on completion percentage. Don't need to be 70 or higher. Only the air raid wants that. For instance heisman last year in a modified air raid that does a lot of running was only 66%. Dugan 64%. Wku 64%. Young 64%Jordan Travis 64%.Chase Brice from app state 62. He wasn't really considered dual threat either. Mike was at 57 percent. He's not far off from Brice. They said he's gotten better. He can also run better then Brice. Notable players around him. Spencer sanders that was at ok state. Ewers at Texas. Slovis at Pitt. Milroe at bama. Hell jt daniels at wv under Harrell was only at 61. Emory Jones 62. If you compare guys that also give you a lot of the ground, 60% ballpark is good.

To add the best qb we had in Prescott in our best season as a team with him he was 61%. If you have that running factor with about 60% I would say 2014 was a good campaign and offense. Dak was 66% his senior year but without the same running game our offense wasn't as good. Our 14 offense avg more yards per game than 15. Last year was t even close our best year under leach was 392 yards per game and 31.6 point per game. Compared to dak 2014 513.8 yards per game and 36.9 points per game with a dynamic qb throwing 61%. His 66% was 460 yards per game 34.4 points per game. The point I'm making is too much emphasis is put on completion percentage when a qb also can give you points and yards with his legs too. This is not the air raid anymore. So if a qb can score and get yards with his legs and had a near 60 percent completion percentage that's pretty damnn good too. Best offense we have ever seen was a 61% thrower.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Go look at the stats out there. Lots of dual guys in the low to mid 60s on completion percentage. Don't need to be 70 or higher. Only the air raid wants that. For instance heisman last year in a modified air raid that does a lot of running was only 66%. Dugan 64%. Wku 64%. Young 64%Jordan Travis 64%.Chase Brice from app state 62. He wasn't really considered dual threat either. Mike was at 57 percent. He's not far off from Brice. They said he's gotten better. He can also run better then Brice. Notable players around him. Spencer sanders that was at ok state. Ewers at Texas. Slovis at Pitt. Milroe at bama. Hell jt daniels at wv under Harrell was only at 61. Emory Jones 62. If you compare guys that also give you a lot of the ground, 60% ballpark is good.

Completion percentage isn't the best indicator of the 'pass-first' QB to me. I don't know if there is a stat that measures this.

Eli Manning was a statue, and he didn't blow up the stat book. He also didn't have a rocket arm. But he was one of the most valuable QBs out there.

But either way there's no point in arguing about it. Those guys you list would be fine. And you'd think we could find plenty of those. But it's still going to take the special guy like Dak to get us to 10 wins most of the time.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Leach at Florida, LSU, USC or even Tennessee is likely unstoppable. Like most good offenses when they get good talent.

Just because Leach's personality relegated him to Texas Tech, Wazzou and State, let's not assume his offense wouldn't work as much as anybody else's. He did the same thing every other coach has done at State, which is 8-4. And who knows what he would have done this season, perhaps he matches Jackie and Danny with that 'up' season? We'll never know, but I suspect he'd have succeeded, since he's done that twice before.

True but I think only if he incorporates more of the run game like his disciples have done at usc and Tennessee

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

You could argue that too high of a completion percentage means you're being too safe with your passes and just taking easy checkdowns that don't really hurt the defense.

Also true. Listening to full ride this morning they were talk about average pass play. They were saying one team was averaging less than 6 a play. Where as they were saying you want something more like 9. That for sure made me think about us in the air raid

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Completion percentage isn't the best indicator of the 'pass-first' QB to me. I don't know if there is a stat that measures this.

Eli Manning was a statue, and he didn't blow up the stat book. He also didn't have a rocket arm. But he was one of the most valuable QBs out there.

But either way there's no point in arguing about it. Those guys you list would be fine. And you'd think we could find plenty of those. But it's still going to take the special guy like Dak to get us to 10 wins most of the time.

That's understandable. Leadership and will to score and get the extra yard is not quantifiable. Neither is trust and hard work . Those are the intangibles. I would say will gets the start because of trust. But how long does that get you. Will to score and get the yards dak and fitz had that in spades. So did shrader and that's why I wish he would have stayed and his completion percentage and running would have been given extra thought.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Chase Brice from app state 62. He wasn't really considered dual threat either. Mike was at 57 percent. He's not far off from Brice.

Against seven P5 opponents last year, Wright was at 55%, 5.94 YPA, 6-4 TD / INT ratio. That’s not close to Brice. The dude can’t throw nearly well enough to be anything more than a change of pace QB. Just can’t.

We can probably give him 3 or 4 plays with high percentage throws he can either hit or sail out of bounds if needed so we can make sure we keep possession. We could also teach him a few plays at WR so he could actually stay on the field and we have an option to go fast with both him and Will out there and not substitute, and keep the defense off balance. But Will is going to take 85-90% of the QB snaps under any scenario because that’s what gives us the best chance to put up points.

 

[maroonmadman]

I am fairly confident SELA did have a sack in the game.

You are correct. I watched a replay and saw it. My bad. Still, only 1 isn't too bad.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

 

[ChE1997]

Good question. I initially agree with you. Let's look at the last 10 years (2014-2023):

2014: none
2015: Brady Davis (Memphis), J'Mar Smith (La. Tech), Gardner Minshew is in here, not rated
2016: Keon Howard (USM), Jack Abraham (USM and others)
2017: Myles Brennan (LSU), La'Andre Thomas (Memphis), Jack Walker (Georgia State)
2018: none
2019: KJ Jefferson (Arkansas), John Rhys Plumless (Ole Miss, UCF)
2020: Will Rogers (State)
2021: Luke Altmyer (Ole Miss, Illinois), Ty Keyes (USM)
2022: none
2023: Mack Howard (Utah), Vic Sutton (State - who da fook is this guy??)

So let's condense this down into the players we actually know did something. Minshew, Smith, Abraham, Brennan, Jefferson, Plumlee, Rogers, Altmyer, Keyes. It appears to be 5-4 in favor of the pass-first QBs. But I do think we can all agree that Minshew, Jefferson and Plumlee are the best of the bunch, so that's 2-1 in favor of the runners. Who knows?

I would not have expected that. Of course, this isn't counting guys like Pat White (from AL, I know, but just using as an example) who would have moved positions if not for a guy like Rich Rod. Then if you look into our history, we have Fitzgerald, Dak, Relf, Sleepy, Smith, Bond - those gave us some good moments. Yes, we had good moments in the late 90s but that wasn't due to QB play (and no, Madkin was NOT a runner in the same vein as these others). Then add in Omarr, who Croom should be ashamed about.

Now, add in the possibility of us signing RBs and WRs. It appears that the best route for us is a running offense. I personally still love the Rich Rod West Virginia offense. That was the most fun to watch of any I've ever seen, and would have loved to have seen that at MSU. Malzahn's too. That's the type of offense I want to run.

While I agree a running offence is best, there is a reason Malzahn is a UCF and Rich Rod is Jacksonville State.

One of the best running first offensive coordinators in the big leagues today is..... Barbay.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Seems like Barbay and Arnett want to go duel threat. Listening to arnett talk about the Arizona qb. He covets that skill set. He knows it's hard to prepare for. Parsons and Flowers are both dual threat guys. Rogers is the outlier for what they want to do and the reason is is splitting time with Wright. Seems like leak and Tebow in 06 season.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

While I agree a running offence is best, there is a reason Malzahn is a UCF and Rich Rod is Jacksonville State.

One of the best running first offensive coordinators in the big leagues today is..... Barbay.

Yeah, because Auburn folks are crazy, and Rich Rod made a dumb career move to go to Michigan. Those are national championship caliber coaches, X/O-wise. They were both a hair away. You might say Malzahn was a bit of a pvssy and not ready for big time, since he let the boosters recruit for him rather than to fit his system. And Rich Rod just kind of got dumb. Didn't he 17 a trainer or something at Arizona? He flirted with Bama and then went to Michigan, that proves he didn't know what was best for him. He might have won a title at West Virginia.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Seems like Barbay and Arnett want to go duel threat. Listening to arnett talk about the Arizona qb. He covets that skill set. He knows it's hard to prepare for. Parsons and Flowers are both dual threat guys. Rogers is the outlier for what they want to do and the reason is is splitting time with Wright. Seems like leak and Tebow in 06 season.

Hope it turns out that way. Or anything close to it.

 

[johnson86-1]

The Leach offense was nice when it worked but ugly when it didn’t. I understand why he was successful with it for two decades, but it definitely had a clear ceiling.

Jury is still out on Barbay and will be for several more games, but I liked what we were doing conceptually in Game 1.

The air raid did not have a clear ceiling because no one with a lot of talent has run it. Leach never really got it clicking at MSU, but I don't think it's clear at all that it couldn't work with the right talent. If we had had Cross one more year and we had added an elite WR that could go over the top, I think you would have seen it work last year with Will. Alternatively, it might could have worked with a Minshew like QB, which granted a NFL back up quality qb is not something that grows on trees, but it's also not like catching lightning in a bottle.

 

[BingleCocktail]

EVERY offense’s ceiling is dictated by talent.

OR LACK OF IT

 

[BingleCocktail]

ILL LIKE ANY OFFENSE AS LONG AS WE WIN — ‘SPECIALLY AGAINST 0LD P1$$

 

[Big Dawg81]

I would like to have seen us run the air raid a few more years. I can’t help but wonder what it would have looked like with a guy like Parsons at quarter back. I liked us being a team that ran a different offense than everyone else. Unless we start recruiting with the top of the pack I don’t see us ever out Alabamaing Alabama or out LSUing LSU or any other top team consistently. I liked the idea of being different on offense wether that be with the air raid or even going to the triple option to try and level the playing field.
Every few years Leach and Paul Johnson had some really good teams running niche offenses. I hated seeing Georgia Tech on the schedule when we played them in the past when they ran the triple option. I don’t think anyone minds seeing them on their schedule

Those stats got padded heavily in the 2nd half. We'll know more what we have a week from now.

Zero pre snap penalties says a lot if you ask me. 1st game with new offense? Yea, that’s pretty good.

 

[Mud84]

Jury is out still for me but i did like what i was seeing from it in the 2nd half.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

In 2012, Sumlin averaged 38 passes and 41 runs per game. Just because he used some of the Leach / Kingsbury route trees on passing plays does not mean he ran the Air Raid. Leach and Mumme were the only ones to truly run the real Air Raid.

Then the only thing that makes you air raid is refusing to run the ball in a power situation.

 

[BigDawg0074]

Using formations and motions to dictate the box you want and then getting a hat on a hat in the run game. I could get use to this.

As long as we get those hats going to the right place. Most of the blown plays I saw were simple missed assignments and not our guys getting their butts kicked like I’ve seen others suggest.