I like this offense better than Leach’s

[ChE1997]

Yeah, because Auburn folks are crazy, and Rich Rod made a dumb career move to go to Michigan. Those are national championship caliber coaches, X/O-wise. They were both a hair away. You might say Malzahn was a bit of a pvssy and not ready for big time, since he let the boosters recruit for him rather than to fit his system. And Rich Rod just kind of got dumb. Didn't he 17 a trainer or something at Arizona? He flirted with Bama and then went to Michigan, that proves he didn't know what was best for him. He might have won a title at West Virginia.

I agree ,

Oh Wait it's 2023...

I thought it was still 2005.

Maybe we get Barry Switzer to run the wishbone. Man that was a great offense... Wonder why it doesnt work anymore...

 

[Drebin]

It actually was. Every coach is different, but it was very close. Sumlin never ran his QB until Johnny came along because, SHAZAAM, he actually COULD run it, at an effective level, while also being an accurate passer.

It's not as easy as the morons say to just 'go get a running quarterback'. I've been telling ya'll this for years but it hasn't sunk in.

LOL, no it wasn't. Stop clowning yourself.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I agree ,

Oh Wait it's 2023...

I thought it was still 2005.

Maybe we get Barry Switzer to run the wishbone. Man that was a great offense... Wonder why it doesnt work anymore...

Jacksonville State went 9-2 last year. JRP and UCF are rolling (not to mention what he did at Ole Miss in 2019).

The offense works. Both Rich Rod's and Malzahn's.

 

[Perd Hapley]

It actually was. Every coach is different, but it was very close. Sumlin never ran his QB until Johnny came along because, SHAZAAM, he actually COULD run it, at an effective level, while also being an accurate passer.

It's not as easy as the morons say to just 'go get a running quarterback'. I've been telling ya'll this for years but it hasn't sunk in.

Nah….Sumlin actually ran Case Keenum quite a bit before he tore his ACL in 2010 (right before MSU game). In 2008 and 2009, Keenum had a total of 136 carries for 379 yards and 11 TD’s on the ground….all under Sumlin. Take sacks out of the equation, and he had around 100ish designed runs and scrambles for over 500 yards (and 11 TD’s), so he could scoot a little bit himself before the ACL injury. So he was getting at least 4-5 legit carries per game (non-sacks).

Kenny Hill also had 52 attempts in only 8 games in 2014. Subtract maybe 15-20 sacks and he had about 4-5 designed runs per game as well.

Kyle Allen - 65 rushing attempts in 10 games in 2015…..and he wasn’t mobile at all.

Trevor Knight - 102 carries in 11 games (averaged 6.0 YPC) in 2016.

Kellen Mond - 89 carries in 10 games in 2017, and he wasn’t even the full time QB as they platooned him with Starkel.

The TLDR version - Sumlin has always run his QB’s. He ran some more than others (Manziel, Knight, Mond), but it was always an integral part of his offense.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

As long as we get those hats going to the right place. Most of the blown plays I saw were simple missed assignments and not our guys getting their butts kicked like I’ve seen others suggest.

Our OL didn't get push for most of the game, our personnel had them outnumber most of the time. There were only few plays where I saw our guys maul the other team, and you would like to see more than that for an FCS opponent.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Nah….Sumlin actually ran Case Keenum quite a bit before he tore his ACL in 2010 (right before MSU game). In 2008 and 2009, Keenum had a total of 136 carries for 379 yards and 11 TD’s on the ground….all under Sumlin. Take sacks out of the equation, and he had around 100ish designed runs and scrambles for over 500 yards (and 11 TD’s), so he could scoot a little bit himself before the ACL injury. So he was getting at least 4-5 legit carries per game (non-sacks).

Kenny Hill also had 52 attempts in only 8 games in 2014. Subtract maybe 15-20 sacks and he had about 4-5 designed runs per game as well.

Kyle Allen - 65 rushing attempts in 10 games in 2015…..and he wasn’t mobile at all.

Trevor Knight - 102 carries in 11 games (averaged 6.0 YPC) in 2016.

Kellen Mond - 89 carries in 10 games in 2017, and he wasn’t even the full time QB as they platooned him with Starkel.

The TLDR version - Sumlin has always run his QB’s. He ran some more than others (Manziel, Knight, Mond), but it was always an integral part of his offense.

Keenum was not a runner, dude. Like, at all. Your own stats bear that out. Johnny had 201 attempts in 2012 and 144 in 2013. That's a QB who was running, and those weren't even designed. Those were him taking off and being Johnny. None of those other guys were runners either, and that's after Sumlin publicly said in 2014 that he was going to try and run more. And funny enough, that coincided with his downfall. The reason it worked in 2012/2013 was because they were still looking pass-first, with the run second. And when you have Johnny, that's deadly. And they had more talent around him in 2012.

So, I'll say again. The QB running is a perk, it's not the focus. If you can't throw, you're going to be limited. Very few offenses can truly make that work in this day and age, and Rich Rod/Malzahn are two of them. Mullen is too, sorta. And then obviously your option offenses.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Keenum was not a runner, dude. Like, at all. Your own stats bear that out. Johnny had 201 attempts in 2012 and 144 in 2013. That's a QB who was running, and those weren't even designed. Those were him taking off and being Johnny. None of those other guys were runners either, and that's after Sumlin publicly said in 2014 that he was going to try and run more. And funny enough, that coincided with his downfall. The reason it worked in 2012/2013 was because they were still looking pass-first, with the run second. And when you have Johnny, that's deadly. And they had more talent around him in 2012.

Come on, man. What stats say Keenum wasn’t a runner “at all”? Keenum’s career YPC (which include 57 carries for 0.6 YPC in 2011, post ACL injury) was 3.0 YPC. That’s the exact same as what Chris Relf had in 2011. Take that 2011 year out and he’s at 3.54 YPC for his college career which is pretty damn good for a QB when you take into account that sacks count against rushing yard totals in college. He also had over 100 carries for 400+ yards and 9 TD’s as a freshmen under Briles in 2017, and 23 career rushing TD’s. He obviously wasn’t Tebow or Manziel, but he could and did run a lot pre-injury, and that was by design. Compare his running stats to any Leach QB ever if you think Sumlin is somehow an Air Raid guy.

So, I'll say again. The QB running is a perk, it's not the focus. If you can't throw, you're going to be limited. Very few offenses can truly make that work in this day and age, and Rich Rod/Malzahn are two of them. Mullen is too, sorta. And then obviously your option offenses.

I totally agree with all this, but none of it means that Kevin Sumlin was somehow running the Air Raid. There is a complete disassociation between those two topics.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Come on, man. What stats say Keenum wasn’t a runner “at all”? Keenum’s career YPC (which include 57 carries for 0.6 YPC in 2011, post ACL injury) was 3.0 YPC. That’s the exact same as what Chris Relf had in 2011. Take that 2011 year out and he’s at 3.54 YPC for his college career which is pretty damn good for a QB when you take into account that sacks count against rushing yard totals in college. He also had over 100 carries for 400+ yards and 9 TD’s as a freshmen under Briles in 2017, and 23 career rushing TD’s. He obviously wasn’t Tebow or Manziel, but he could and did run a lot pre-injury, and that was by design. Compare his running stats to any Leach QB ever if you think Sumlin is somehow an Air Raid guy.

This is getting silly.

Keenum had 60 rush attempts in 2009, his best season. Relf had 123 in 2011 in an injury-riddled season. Will freaking Rogers had 44 last year. Which two are similar?

Google anything about Mike Leach's coaching tree, you'll find Sumlin and the guys Sumlin learned from.

 

[Lucifer Morningstar]

As long as we get those hats going to the right place. Most of the blown plays I saw were simple missed assignments and not our guys getting their butts kicked like I’ve seen others suggest.

You mean like simple first game missed assignments that should be corrected going into week 2?

 

[RockyDog]

The thing is we went 9-4, return alost the whole team and have an easier schedule. Will we win 9+ games this year ? If not why not ?
I think you could have kept things in place for 1 peak season, even altered them with tight ends, narrower splits, more of a running game. Time will tell.
you pretty much lose most of the team after this year, the drastic changes would have made more sense to implement next year.

But Arnett knows what decade we are in and in this era of college football you don't get a 5 year plan. Even at MSU. He obviously didn't feel comfortable handing the reins to Spurrier and just because Hollingshead could potentially be a star at WKU doesn't mean he was ready for a big boy SEC job.

It was looking like Briles for a while and we had a whole bunch of people bitching about that potential hire. Arnett wasn't gonna win with 50% of the fanbase anyway. So, if he wasn't comfortable standing pat for 1 year and trying to make it work, you can't really blame him. This is his gig and he will either fail or succeed based on his own results.

 

[RockyDog]

Well every coach that was let go was long steeped in the air raid As was the entire team, especially the O line. Running more of a Briles version would have been an easier transition. Barbay has a pretty different system, a lot of the problem is the O line and I think Wright is going to wind up being the qb if we lose a couple in a row upcoming.

Hollingshead is doing a heck of a job running the air raid up at WKU. I think he could have stepped right in.

Heckuva job based on what? They put up 34 offensive points against an AAC team that went 1-11 last year. 336 yards passing on 50 attempts is exactly what we saw routinely last season. It doesn't make it special.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

But Arnett knows what decade we are in and in this era of college football you don't get a 5 year plan. Even at MSU. He obviously didn't feel comfortable handing the reins to Spurrier and just because Hollingshead could potentially be a star at WKU doesn't mean he was ready for a big boy SEC job.

It was looking like Briles for a while and we had a whole bunch of people bitching about that potential hire. Arnett wasn't gonna win with 50% of the fanbase anyway. So, if he wasn't comfortable standing pat for 1 year and trying to make it work, you can't really blame him. This is his gig and he will either fail or succeed based on his own results.

I've thought about this quite a bit. I tend to agree with @blitz2Win but I don't pretend to know completely. On one hand I've heard that there were major attitude differences between Arnett and the Leach offensive guys. On the other hand, I think Arnett inherited the job due to circumstances, so maybe he should have afforded the Leach guys the same latitude. Especially since this 'up' year is 4 years in the making with Air Raid personnel. I sense a little bit of ego with Arnett sometimes, but sometimes I think he 100% knows his shlt. Sometimes I think he wants to correct the 20% of things Leach did wrong, while ignoring the 80% he did right. But I also love that he's totally delegated the offense to an OC, so maybe it's Barbay that's pushing things? Who knows.

All I really know, is that it's just a wait and see thing.

 

[Perd Hapley]

This is getting silly.

Keenum had 60 rush attempts in 2009, his best season. Relf had 123 in 2011 in an injury-riddled season. Will freaking Rogers had 44 last year. Which two are similar?

Rogers was sacked 26 times last year, which means he only had 18 actual rushes, almost none of which called as running plays. All were weak scrambles when he was flushed….and about half of which ended in fumbles. And again, Keenum had over 100 rush attempts for 400+ yards in 2007. QB’s who can’t run don’t get that kind of a workload.

Google anything about Mike Leach's coaching tree, you'll find Sumlin and the guys Sumlin learned from.

What? Sumlin’s entire coaching tree as far as the guys he learned from is 90% Joe Tiller and 10% Chuck Long / Kevin Wilson. He is nowhere on the Leach tree. Sumlin’s only connection to the Air Raid at all is that he had Holgerson as an OC working under him at Houston, and the same situation with Kingsbury at A&M. Those guys are thus on HIS coaching tree, not the other way around.

Seriously….even in 2012, the apex of Manziel-mania, the A&M pass play call % was only 49.35%. That means you take all those dozens of JFF broken pass play scrambles and account for them as passing play calls, they STILL called more running plays than passing plays. That is not the damn Air Raid.

 

[ChE1997]

Jacksonville State went 9-2 last year. JRP and UCF are rolling (not to mention what he did at Ole Miss in 2019).

The offense works. Both Rich Rod's and Malzahn's.

LOL. 9-2 in in FCS? And one of those losses was vs SELA 31-14.

It Works?

Let's see how he does in FBS this year.

 

[blitz2Win]

Rogers was sacked 26 times last year, which means he only had 18 actual rushes, almost none of which called as running plays. All were weak scrambles when he was flushed….and about half of which ended in fumbles. And again, Keenum had over 100 rush attempts for 400+ yards in 2007. QB’s who can’t run don’t get that kind of a workload.



What? Sumlin’s entire coaching tree as far as the guys he learned from is 90% Joe Tiller and 10% Chuck Long / Kevin Wilson. He is nowhere on the Leach tree. Sumlin’s only connection to the Air Raid at all is that he had Holgerson as an OC working under him at Houston, and the same situation with Kingsbury at A&M. Those guys are thus on HIS coaching tree, not the other way around.

Seriously….even in 2012, the apex of Manziel-mania, the A&M pass play call % was only 49.35%. That means you take all those dozens of JFF broken pass play scrambles and account for them as passing play calls, they STILL called more running plays than passing plays. That is not the damn Air Raid.

View attachment 399587

What does it matter where Sumlins background came from if his offense is run by Leach air raid guys ? holdgerson and Kliff K were air raid guys who ran Sumlins offense.

 

[Perd Hapley]

What does it matter where Sumlins background came from if his offense is run by Leach air raid guys ? holdgerson and Kliff K were air raid guys who ran Sumlins offense.

It matters a lot because of your last sentence….ultimately it was Sumlin’s offense and the buck stops with him on how its run, regardless of what background his OC’s had before they arrived. Just like Les Koenning and Billy Gonzalez were “OC’s” under Mullen, but you know damn well they weren’t running their own offense with full autonomy.

You want more evidence, look at Kingsbury’s playcalling shift from 2012 as OC at A&M to 2013 as HC at Texas Tech. Went from 49% passing at A&M to nearly 65% his first year at Texas Tech. And even Kingsbury was never true Air Raid….he hovered between 55-65% pass play call volume, never did the wide splits, etc. In fact, Kliff’s Red Raiders in 2015 threw the ball less than 1% more of the time than Mullen did with Dak that same season. Holgerson and others were all similar stories.

There’s only been one true Air Raid system ever, and that is the one Leach ran for 2+ decades. Everyone else was just running some of the same plays, but that doesn’t make it Air Raid. The Leach Air Raid plays and base formations themselves aren’t special at all. All of them were the same plays being run by Steve Spurrier, Joe Tiller, etc. in the early 90’s. What made Leach’s offense different was the philosophy of building the entire thing around the concept of throwing the ball 70-75% of the time as a matter of efficiency, regardless of down, distance, or score. That meant changing everything from the O-Line splits and WR substitution patterns to running a very condensed version of the passing spread playbook in order to maximize precision through repetition.

That is what the Air Raid really is, and no one else did it. That’s also why all the talk about Kingsbury and Tony Franklin and others running a “modified Air Raid” is pure nonsense….there’s no such thing. They were just running their own version of the passing spread offense that’s been around forever, with their own wrinkles thrown in here and there….particularly in the running game.

 

[blitz2Win]

It matters a lot because of your last sentence….ultimately it was Sumlin’s offense and the buck stops with him on how its run, regardless of what background his OC’s had before they arrived. Just like Les Koenning and Billy Gonzalez were “OC’s” under Mullen, but you know damn well they weren’t running their own offense with full autonomy.

You want more evidence, look at Kingsbury’s playcalling shift from 2012 as OC at A&M to 2013 as HC at Texas Tech. Went from 49% passing at A&M to nearly 65% his first year at Texas Tech. And even Kingsbury was never true Air Raid….he hovered between 55-65% pass play call volume, never did the wide splits, etc. In fact, Kliff’s Red Raiders in 2015 threw the ball less than 1% more of the time than Mullen did with Dak that same season. Holgerson and others were all similar stories.

There’s only been one true Air Raid system ever, and that is the one Leach ran for 2+ decades. Everyone else was just running some of the same plays, but that doesn’t make it Air Raid. The Leach Air Raid plays and base formations themselves aren’t special at all. All of them were the same plays being run by Steve Spurrier, Joe Tiller, etc. in the early 90’s. What made Leach’s offense different was the philosophy of building the entire thing around the concept of throwing the ball 70-75% of the time as a matter of efficiency, regardless of down, distance, or score. That meant changing everything from the O-Line splits and WR substitution patterns to running a very condensed version of the passing spread playbook in order to maximize precision through repetition.

That is what the Air Raid really is, and no one else did it. That’s also why all the talk about Kingsbury and Tony Franklin and others running a “modified Air Raid” is pure nonsense….there’s no such thing. They were just running their own version of the passing spread offense that’s been around forever, with their own wrinkles thrown in here and there….particularly in the running game.

Ok Holgerson and Kingsbury aren’t air raid guys, geez. Go over to Texas techs board and post that, see what they say.

apparently only you can define the air raid, and the definition is so narrow that Leach has no coaching tree whatsoever. basically every analyst in the country disagrees with that.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Ok Holgerson and Kingsbury aren’t air raid guys, geez. Go over to Texas techs board and post that, see what they say.

apparently only you can define the air raid, and the definition is so narrow that Leach has no coaching tree whatsoever. basically every analyst in the country disagrees with that.

They were while playing / coaching under Leach and their origins certainly started there, and they carried a lot of the passing plays and knowledge with them.

But they eventually branched out and added / changed a lot of things and they went on with their careers, which is what they should have done. As far as analysts disagreeing, that’s fine. Analysts are stupid if they think you can literally run more than pass, yet still be “Air Raid”.

 

[blitz2Win]

You have a poor understanding of the air raid.

 

[missouridawg]

Miss ya Coach, but the ability to run a jet-sweep to Tulu is something we’ve missed. Mike Wright’s read-option could win a game this year. We wouldn’t be seeing either in the air raid.

A good, mobile QB would be a handful.

I have heard that Leach had conceded that he ultimately would need a mobile QB to win in the SEC with his Air Raid, hence why he targeted Parsons so much.

 

[Perd Hapley]

You have a poor understanding of the air raid.

Sure….Let’s hear your understanding, then.

You’d think after seeing it for 3 years at MSU and seeing firsthand and having ad nauseum discussions about how drastically different the Leach Air Raid is from every other offense in college football, will work / won’t work in the SEC, etc….folks here would recognize its not something that’s out there everywhere. Guess not.

 

[blitz2Win]

some of us watched it quite a long time before Leach ever got to MSU, some of us played in it or coached it too.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Analysts are stupid if they think you can literally run more than pass, yet still be “Air Raid”.

I don't get why you think you can't run out of the Air Raid, especially from audible. Texas A&M did exactly this in 2012 and 2013.

 

[Perd Hapley]

some of us watched it quite a long time before Leach ever got to MSU, some of us played in it or coached it too.

Cool. You should have plenty to share then. Let’s hear it.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I don't get why you think you can't run out of the Air Raid, especially from audible. Texas A&M did exactly this in 2012 and 2013.

Nobody ever said you couldn’t run out if it at all. But all the other guys besides Leach have been much more liberal in both when / how often to audible to a run, and how many different run plays are available. One of the many differences in what Leach did vs. his “tree” guys.