Josh Gibson to hold several MLB records…
- Thread starter Maroon Eagle
- Start date
Seems off. I know the AFL and NFL did the same thing, but this isn't quite the same scenario, as even the games/season aren't comparable.
Also, isn't Tetelo Vargas the Negro Leagues single-season batting average record holder?
Also, isn't Tetelo Vargas the Negro Leagues single-season batting average record holder?
Baseball dropping in popularity, but this will fix it. Do something that makes absolutely no sense to the people who actually understand the game to attract a group of people who really don't give a 17 about the game.
Will not consider it valid until softball and international leagues are included
MLB made this decision back in 2020. Not sure why people are getting worked up about it today, as it is clearly the correct decision, given how evenly matched AL/NL teams and Negro League teams were when they played exhibitions (which were fairly common back then).
I guess some of you don't ever look at Baseball Reference or Fangraphs? They have been integrated into the stats for years now.
I guess some of you don't ever look at Baseball Reference or Fangraphs? They have been integrated into the stats for years now.
Last edited:
If I told you Josh Gibson is replacing Barry Bonds on a couple of these records, does that change your opposition?
I'm like you, I'm really upset Hugh Duffy's .440 average in 1894 for the Boston Beaneaters is no longer the record.*
Guessing it's probably because the Yahoo article referenced above came out today.
Why would teams from different leagues being competitive once upon a time mean it's 'clearly the correct decision' to merge their stats? That seems like saying the Ivy League schools and the SEC always played competitive football games in the late 1800's, so now we should merge their stats... I realize the risks of asking questions on this topic, but I don't understand the link between the two.
I think you're making my argument. The Ivy League should be considered a major football conference until the 1950s or so because they were competitive with the best until then, and not after that. Similarly, the Negro Leagues are only considered by MLB to be "major leagues" until 1948, even though they kept existing for a while after that.
My guess is the same people that got worked up about the whole Caitlin Clark and Maravich record deal will get worked up about this too.
I don’t have a problem with this because it’ll tell the story of some great baseball players that didn’t have the chance to be in MLB.
I don’t have a problem with this because it’ll tell the story of some great baseball players that didn’t have the chance to be in MLB.
It's time for Pete Rose to be in the HOF. I can't take MLB serious anymore.
They need to include women’s softball in the records*. Men’s fast pitch softball Eddie Feigner , the king and his court, would hold every pitching record.
Why exclude japans best players or Mexican league stars ? Cuban baseball legends ?
Last edited:
Good to see you’re not being dramatic or anything***
Nothing dramatic about it, it’s ridiculous and political in nature. if you include the negro leagues, why exclude Sadaharu Oh and the Japan league ? What is the difference ?
Ichiro is the all time hits leader if you include his seven years playing in Japan. Why exclude him ?
Last edited:
Japanese Baseball (NPB) is not considered by any serious historian or statistician to be on par with Major League Baseball at any point in history - the gap is closing and it's probably higher than AAA quality now, but still it's not up to MLB standards. By contrast, the major Negro Leagues from 1920 to 1948 are considered by serious historians and statisticians to be on par with the American and National Leagues of the same time period.
That's a pretty huge difference, isn't it? If there were additional leagues full of MLB-quality talent who performed equally year-in-year out with MLB teams in exhibition matchups (another difference there with the NPB), full of players who would have been on AL/NL rosters had they been allowed to be, it makes sense for MLB to recognize them as such.
I don’t have a problem with it but I certainly can see why some might. To each his own.
The Negro Leagues pitching is definitely not an apples to oranges comparison. “Considered by serious historians to be on par”, sorry that’s not convincing. How many teams were there ? 2 to 9 ? How many games played ? 55-100 ? Sure there were some great players who could play for anybody but you aren’t going to have the same quality of pitching given the disparity in number of players, teams and level of competition. I’m all for honoring Gibson, but this is rewriting history with the blunt instrument of political correctness.
Also outright dismissing Japans greatest players as inferior play is very subjective if you are going to claim negro leagues were at the same level of competition as Major League Baseball, they weren’t.
Well, baseball historians think otherwise. I don't know what else to tell you. I think you're being uncharitable to the researchers who've put a lot of effort into this by just dismissing it as "political correctness."
You know I was reading articles regarding this and they can’t even verify the numbers for Gibson ,they report them as “rumored. Baseball historians are unanimous that old negro league statistics should be merged with major league statistics ? I seriously doubt that.
They're not using "rumored" stats to count to his totals or anyone else's, just the verified box scores that we do have. For example, Gibson is being recognized for now as having hit 166 home runs even though he likely hit hundreds more than that. Another is that Willie Mays is said to have hit a home run playing for the Birmingham Black Barons in 1948, but they haven't located the actual box score for that game, so they're not raising his career to 661 for now. They're still working on getting more box scores, so some numbers could be updated in the future.
Let me assure you, this is all being done in a scientific, fact-based fashion. It's not being done haphazardly or for the wrong reasons. You can read more about it here: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5525148/2024/05/28/mlb-negro-leagues-records-josh-gibson-ty-cobb/
The true statistical achievements of Negro league players may be impossible to know as the Negro leagues did not compile complete statistics or game summaries.[12] As of the May 28, 2024, Negro league statistics have been integrated into Major League Baseball, and Gibson is now at the top of the leaderboard in many categories.[18][6]
The Negro leagues generally found it more profitable to schedule relatively few league games and allow the teams to earn extra money through barnstorming against semi-professional and other non-league teams.[12] Thus, it is important to distinguish between records against all competition and records in league games only. For example, against all levels of competition, Gibson hit 69 home runs in 1934; the same year, in 52 league games, he hit 11 home runs.[5][12]
In 1933, he hit .467 with 55 home runs in 137 games against all levels of competition. His lifetime batting average is said to be higher than .350, with other sources putting it as high as .384, the best in Negro league history.[13] In 2021, it was announced by Major League Baseball that the Negro Leagues (1920–1948) would formally be recognized as a major league. Ongoing research by Baseball Reference tabulated that Gibson led his league three times in batting average and once for all major leagues, most notably hitting .417 in 1937. He also led six times in on-base percentage and slugging percentage eight times.[14]
Gibson's Hall of Fame plaque claims he hit "almost 800 home runs in league and independent baseball during his 17-year career."[15] This figure includes vs. semi-pro competition and in exhibition games. According to the Hall's official data, his lifetime batting average was .359.[12] It was reported that he won nine home run titles and four batting championships playing for the Crawfords and the Grays. It is also believed that Gibson hit a home run in a Negro league game at Yankee Stadium that struck two feet from the top of the wall circling the center field bleachers, about 580 feet (180 m) from home plate.[citation needed] Chicago American Giants infielder Jack Marshall said Gibson slugged one over the third deck next to the left-field bullpen in 1934 for the only fair ball hit out of Yankee Stadium.[citation needed] There is no published or film account to support this claim. Washington Senators owner Clark Griffith once said that Gibson hit more home runs into Griffith Stadium's distant left field bleachers than the entire American League.[16] A 2020 article published by the Society for American Baseball Research provides the supporting details for his homers in major league parks.[17]
The Negro leagues generally found it more profitable to schedule relatively few league games and allow the teams to earn extra money through barnstorming against semi-professional and other non-league teams.[12] Thus, it is important to distinguish between records against all competition and records in league games only. For example, against all levels of competition, Gibson hit 69 home runs in 1934; the same year, in 52 league games, he hit 11 home runs.[5][12]
In 1933, he hit .467 with 55 home runs in 137 games against all levels of competition. His lifetime batting average is said to be higher than .350, with other sources putting it as high as .384, the best in Negro league history.[13] In 2021, it was announced by Major League Baseball that the Negro Leagues (1920–1948) would formally be recognized as a major league. Ongoing research by Baseball Reference tabulated that Gibson led his league three times in batting average and once for all major leagues, most notably hitting .417 in 1937. He also led six times in on-base percentage and slugging percentage eight times.[14]
Gibson's Hall of Fame plaque claims he hit "almost 800 home runs in league and independent baseball during his 17-year career."[15] This figure includes vs. semi-pro competition and in exhibition games. According to the Hall's official data, his lifetime batting average was .359.[12] It was reported that he won nine home run titles and four batting championships playing for the Crawfords and the Grays. It is also believed that Gibson hit a home run in a Negro league game at Yankee Stadium that struck two feet from the top of the wall circling the center field bleachers, about 580 feet (180 m) from home plate.[citation needed] Chicago American Giants infielder Jack Marshall said Gibson slugged one over the third deck next to the left-field bullpen in 1934 for the only fair ball hit out of Yankee Stadium.[citation needed] There is no published or film account to support this claim. Washington Senators owner Clark Griffith once said that Gibson hit more home runs into Griffith Stadium's distant left field bleachers than the entire American League.[16] A 2020 article published by the Society for American Baseball Research provides the supporting details for his homers in major league parks.[17]
85bears doing his own research and working overtime to show baseball historians they are WRONG
No just quoting Josh Gibsons Wikipedia page. inconvenient facts.
You've nailed their assses to the wall - bet they change it back ASAP.
Hey it’s really something when exhibition games, semipro games , Mexican league games and Dominican League games all count towards major league statistics. Like magic. It’s a feel good story.
As I already said, none of those are counting toward his major league stats. Did you not read either of the articles?
He's only getting credit for official league games that we have box scores on. Thus his home run count is 166, not 800.
Wait, were there more Negro League teams relative to the african american population than there were MLB teams relative to whatever population was allowed to particpate (did they exclude asians too back then? Or those damned irish?)? I would have thought it ran the other way and that there were fewer teams and therefore better pitching and competition?
I really don't care either way. My opinion is that it doesn't really make sense to mix stats from different leagues but considering the age and how little most people are going to care either way about stats from over a century ago, it doesn't seem crazy to include them and to identify which league the stats were compiled in (hell, I would assume it's relevant to distinguish between AL and NL before free agency resulted in more players crossing leagues).
That said, it does strike me as odd to see a claim along the lines of "there was a league full of white people and a league full of black people within the same sport; the competition in the white league was obviously tougher." Can't put my finger on it but that doesn't seem like a claim that should be accepted on its face without some more detailed explanation.
Doesn't matter, Caitlin Clark will break everyone's records before she's done in the WNBA
Nothing dramatic about you proposing to include softball?
The reason you include the negro league is because they were specifically excluded from being in the MLB. It’s pretty simple. It’s honestly not that big of a deal either. It’s damn near impossible to compare any period to previous periods. More games are played now, certain stats now didn’t exist at different points in baseball history.
No, I think you’re making his point for him. All of those home runs against non league teams didn’t count in his MLB total. You’re trying to shoot holes in the process by looking at a Wikipedia page and not understanding how the stats for MLB purposes were even counted.
Classic. The people making changes don't want to explain why those changes are necessary ("because they were competitive 100 years ago" is the only reason I've heard so far) - it's easier just to point and laugh at someone questioning the change.
What are you even talking about? MLB is extensively documenting how and why they're making these changes to the record books, which are now live:
All-Time MLB Player Hitting Stat Leaders
The official source for all-time player hitting stats, MLB home run leaders, batting average, OPS and stat leaders
www.mlb.com
Right! Roger Maris had a damned asterisk next to his single season homerun record for decades because he took more games than Babe Ruth did. Luckily, MLB eventually did the right thing and removed the asterisk.
What am I talking about? LOL it's a simple question: "Why make this change?" I read the article about how fantastic everything is going to be now that Josh Gibson took the lead over Babe Ruth, and Willie Mays et al are going to get more hits and HRs counted. Great for those guys. Not so great for Babe Ruth and Ted Williams' families, but whatever, 17 those guys. Point is, the article still doesn't answer the question, "why does this change need to be made?" "Why take two distinct historical baseball leagues that never actually merged together and jumble all the stats together all these years later?" "How does this benefit baseball in any way?"What are you even talking about? MLB is extensively documenting how and why they're making these changes to the record books, which are now live:
All-Time MLB Player Hitting Stat Leaders
The official source for all-time player hitting stats, MLB home run leaders, batting average, OPS and stat leaders
It seems to me this is just erasing the Negro League, and we'll all just be pretending that everyone played together in that era. There are Negro League Museums, historical stats, etc. that I guess will just get demolished and go up in vapor. Not sure why people want that history gone, but oh well. I won't have to try hard to never think about this again.
Did you even see what I responded too. The post was talking about men’s fast pitch softball. I don’t care that people question if these stats should be included. But don’t you think jumping to including fast pitch softball as a reason to not include these stats is a bit dramatic?
Get unlimited access today.