I was actually trying to agree with you, but I write like ****. I wish I could write those immense 10 paragraphs posts so no one is as confused as I constantly am when they read my posts, just bored.
LeBron is now the NBA’s all-time leading scorer…
- Thread starter Lawdawg.sixpack
- Start date
For me it isn't about his off the court stuff, though I don't agree with it. Like Michael Jordan once famously said "Republicans buy sneakers too." But I can separate basketball skill from political off the court stuff. I disagree with Pearl Jam's political stance, but if they would come around I would pay to go see them because they make great music. I don't care for Robert DeNiro's political views either, but he has made some good stuff so I'll watch it. There are countless examples of stuff from Hollywood and probably many others too. Hell, I probably don't agree with the political views of most of the list I made of my Mt Rushmore of Lakers (Magic, Kareem, Kobe, and Shaq).
For me it boil down to this:
Magic had 5 titles in 11 years.
Kareem has 6 in 21 years
Kobe has 5 in 20 years
Shaq has 4 in 19 years
Wilt has 2 (but had to go against Bill Russell, John Havilcek, and Bob Cousy.)
So aside from Wilt, the others had more championships in less amount of time. Hell, Magic won on average a title every other year.
Lebron has 4 in 20 years. He also had to make a super team with Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade to get 2 of them. I didn't watch this last game, but I have seen enough of Lebron's play to realize he is selfish. Him taking himself out of the game with 6 minutes to go in a close game they eventually lost just solidifies that.
This i the most rational take i I have ever read on this board. As a lifelong Celtics fan I have to point out you had one glaring omission however:
Russell had 11 championships in 13 seasons.
We certainly weren't playing at the same courses and country clubs in the late 90s/2000s. I'm not saying it was everyone or even a majority, but it was plenty commonplace.
If this wasn't your experience and you aren't aware of it I'm pleased you had the opportunity to learn and grow today.
Wow. The only adequate comparisons on that list are Magic and Kobe, and LeBron was/is better than both. Its really not even close on either one. Also was a bigger prick than both, but you can’t just deny what he was as a player because of that.
Kareem / Shaq / Wilt were true post players, who bring a totally different skillset to the court. It’s dumb to even try to compare any of them. Like trying to figure out if Jerry Rice was a better football player than Tom Brady.
We were talking about the Lakers.
Russell is certainly on my Mr. Rushmore (if not the GOAT) for all players.
You think Lebron is better than Kobe and/or Magic? Can you provide any justification or is that just how you feel?
Value over replacement player is a pretty good (of course not perfect) statistical ranking. And obviously it doesn't factor in championships, "clutchness", or how much people liked them.
| Rank | Player | VORP |
|---|---|---|
| 1. | LeBron James | 146.04 |
| 2. | Michael Jordan* | 116.05 |
| 3. | John Stockton* | 106.53 |
| 4. | Karl Malone* | 98.96 |
| 5. | Kevin Garnett* | 96.86 |
| 6. | Chris Paul | 95.15 |
| 7. | Tim Duncan* | 91.09 |
| 8. | Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* | 85.72 |
| 9. | Dirk Nowitzki | 84.82 |
| 10. | David Robinson* | 81.93 |
| 11. | Charles Barkley* | 80.48 |
| 12. | Kobe Bryant* | 80.15 |
| 13. | Magic Johnson* | 79.97 |
| 14. | Kevin Durant | 79.60 |
| 15. | Larry Bird* | 77.24 |
| 16. | Shaquille O'Neal* | 75.51 |
| 17. | James Harden | 74.44 |
| 18. | Hakeem Olajuwon* | 74.22 |
| 19. | Jason Kidd* | 73.47 |
| 20. | Clyde Drexler* | 70.20 |
| 21. | Reggie Miller* | 66.07 |
| 22. | Paul Pierce* | 65.54 |
| 23. | Stephen Curry | 64.31 |
| 24. | Scottie Pippen* | 63.18 |
| 25. | Dwyane Wade | 62.80 |
| 26. | Gary Payton* | 62.52 |
| 27. | Vince Carter | 57.90 |
| 28. | Ray Allen* | 57.58 |
| 29. | Pau Gasol | 57.50 |
| 30. | Russell Westbrook | 56.38 |
| 31. | Tracy McGrady* | 55.66 |
| 32. | Julius Erving* | 51.78 |
| 33. | Dominique Wilkins* | 50.62 |
| 34. | Nikola Jokić | 50.16 |
| 35. | Patrick Ewing* |
NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Value Over Replacement Player | Basketball-Reference.com
Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com
www.basketball-reference.com
You constantly act like the rest of us ignore that these issues weren't around when Tiger first started becoming a significant golf player. Yes, these were issues real issues that needed to be fixed but they're not the only reason why people didn't like Tiger. We all heard the comments from Lee Trevino about fried chicken and watermelon and said it was offensive. Why is it if that we're not continuously talking first about how racism is a part of every issue we discuss that it was that we are supposedly ignoring it?
Do you realize the time itself has proved to everyone that Lee Trevino was an ******* who became irrelevant when compared to Tiger's talent and historical importance as a golfer?
I literally did not bring up race until goat did, and I only replied to him. Kindly point out where I said race was the only reason people didn't like Tiger. I'll save you some time, you can't do it. The dominance & hype would far and away be my #1 reason - hell, I was one of them for a long spell. Race would be somewhere below as a reason.
It's like you need to invent a position from others so you can swat it away. Honestly, it's exhausting.
I'd like to see how they come up with that. I know Stockton is an all time great leading the league in all time assists and steals, but come on - I've never seen one person seriously say he was the third best player ever. Better than Steph Curry, Magic, Dr. J, or a host of others. Top 50 player for sure. Top 15 player probably. Top 3? No way.Value over replacement player is a pretty good (of course not perfect) statistical ranking. And obviously it doesn't factor in championships, "clutchness", or how much people liked them.
Rank Player VORP 1. LeBron James 146.04 2. Michael Jordan* 116.05 3. John Stockton* 106.53 4. Karl Malone* 98.96 5. Kevin Garnett* 96.86 6. Chris Paul 95.15 7. Tim Duncan* 91.09 8. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 85.72 9. Dirk Nowitzki 84.82 10. David Robinson* 81.93 11. Charles Barkley* 80.48 12. Kobe Bryant* 80.15 13. Magic Johnson* 79.97 14. Kevin Durant 79.60 15. Larry Bird* 77.24 16. Shaquille O'Neal* 75.51 17. James Harden 74.44 18. Hakeem Olajuwon* 74.22 19. Jason Kidd* 73.47 20. Clyde Drexler* 70.20 21. Reggie Miller* 66.07 22. Paul Pierce* 65.54 23. Stephen Curry 64.31 24. Scottie Pippen* 63.18 25. Dwyane Wade 62.80 26. Gary Payton* 62.52 27. Vince Carter 57.90 28. Ray Allen* 57.58 29. Pau Gasol 57.50 30. Russell Westbrook 56.38 31. Tracy McGrady* 55.66 32. Julius Erving* 51.78 33. Dominique Wilkins* 50.62 34. Nikola Jokić 50.16 35. Patrick Ewing*
NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Value Over Replacement Player | Basketball-Reference.com
Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com
Also, I don't see any of the guys like Russell, Chamberlain, etc. on there. Are they excluded for some reason or were they just not good enough? Because I'd argue they were better than at least some of, if not most, of the players on this list.
You were right - it isn't perfect.
That is all-time, so of course it rewards longevity. By looking at single-season, you can extrapolate MJ would've passed LBJ had they played similar # of games
| 1. | Michael Jordan* | 12.47 | 1987-88 |
| 2. | LeBron James | 11.79 | 2008-09 |
| 3. | Michael Jordan* | 11.43 | 1988-89 |
| 4. | David Robinson* | 11.36 | 1993-94 |
| 5. | Michael Jordan* | 10.77 | 1990-91 |
| 6. | Michael Jordan* | 10.61 | 1989-90 |
| 7. | Michael Jordan* | 10.58 | 1986-87 |
| 8. | LeBron James | 10.34 | 2009-10 |
| 9. | Julius Erving* | 10.30 | 1975-76 |
| 10. | Michael Jordan* | 10.24 | 1992-93 |
| 11. | Kevin Garnett* | 9.97 | 2003-04 |
| 12. | LeBron James | 9.88 | 2012-13 |
| 13. | Chris Paul | 9.86 | 2008-09 |
| 14. | Nikola Jokić | 9.81 | 2021-22 |
| 15. | Michael Jordan* | 9.79 | 1995-96 |
| 16. | LeBron James | 9.78 | 2007-08 |
| 17. | Kevin Durant | 9.61 | 2013-14 |
| 18. | Dwyane Wade | 9.61 | 2008-09 |
| 19. | Stephen Curry | 9.49 | 2015-16 |
| 20. | LeBron James | 9.38 | 2005-06 |
| 21. | James Harden | 9.35 | 2018-19 |
| 22. | Chris Paul | 9.34 | 2007-08 |
| 23. | Tracy McGrady* | 9.32 | 2002-03 |
| 24. | Russell Westbrook | 9.26 | 2016-17 |
| 25. | Michael Jordan* | 9.20 | 1991-9 |
Lebron’s mom made the list.
Win share per 48 is probably more what you've got in mind, although it kinda rewards some of the really early players
NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes | Basketball-Reference.com
Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com
www.basketball-reference.com
I didn't know I was going to be teaching NBA stats 201 this morning, but here we are.
VORP - Value Over Replacement Player (available since the 1973-74 season in the NBA); a box score estimate of the points per 100 TEAM possessions that a player contributed above a replacement-level (-2.0) player, translated to an average team and prorated to an 82-game season. Multiply by 2.70 to convert to wins over replacement. Please see the article About Box Plus/Minus (BPM) for more information.
Glossary | Basketball-Reference.com
Glossary of statistics used on Basketball-Reference
www.basketball-reference.com
If it's all time and Jokic is on there but Russell is not, that doesn't make sense to me.
Don't get me wrong - Jokic is great. But you said longevity counts. Jokic hasn't been in the league for as many years as Russell has titles.
I made the comparison because someone else mentioned there probably isnt someone else who is top 2 in their sport who is as hated as LeBron.
I thought about that, agreed, and added to the comment by mentioning who I thought would even be in consideration, though they arent as hated as LeBron.
Thats why I made the comparison- because the opportunity to discuss and compare to people in other sports was brought up.
You 17ing suck at conversation.
As for Tiger not being hated, it was established years ago that you live in a world unlike most everyone else. How you managed to ignore/not see the hate for him is really not surprising. He was the greatest active player and more dominant than any other athlete in their sport at the time(even the tennis guys). That alone gets you on the hated list of many since fans often just gravitate to hating the dominant player/team.
He was hated for his personality. He was hated for his lack of personality. He was hated for his outspoken dad. He was hated for the narrative created around his upbringing. He was hated for his race. He was hated for his other race. He was hated for cheating on his wife. He was hated for presenting himself as someone totally different than reality. He was hated for his military obsession.
the list you've quoted is single season. See above for all time.
ETA: the all time list starts in 73-74 season, so Russell isn't on there for that reason
Wow - who knew Neil Johnston was the 5th best player ever?Win share per 48 is probably more what you've got in mind, although it kinda rewards some of the really early players
NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes | Basketball-Reference.com
Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com
I'll take noone on Earth for $2,000 Alex.
No it wasn't. Jokic is listed as # 34 in the all time list. Russell isn't listed.
So you hate LeBron because he hasnt won as many titles as a handful of other players?
You must love Robert Horry then since he has more rings than any you mentioned(7).
I just dont understand the concept of hating a player because they havent won more championships. I guess you could include that in an argument against them being the greatest player ever, though championships is a suspect trump card to try and play(see Horry), but it could at least exist in that sphere. I really dont see how it belongs in the argument of whether or not you hate a player though.
the all time list starts in 73-74 season, which it clearly states. Sounds like maybe you already have your own personal list that trumps all others, so Ima let you set with that.
Worth typing out if it means you stop trying to use PPG as response to someone becoming the All Time Scoring Leader.
It is exhausting to hear you talk about absolutely correct you are about everything and how unimportant and stupid the rest of us are, so you need a break from us all. Feel free to ignore me and the rest of us at any point. I'll go first.
Seriously? He has 3 more MVP’s than Kobe, 1 more than Magic. Has averaged 27 / 8 / 7 for his career compared to 20 / 7 / 11 for Magic and 25 / 5 / 5 for Kobe. Won 4 titles without a historically dominant post player to help him carry the team, something Magic and Kobe never did. More NBA Finals MVP’s than Magic and Kobe. Higher eFG% than both, so he wasn’t just a volume shooter stat collector, he was also more efficient. How much longer do I need to keep going?
Also noteworthy: you invent from whole cloth a couple more things to be offended about on the way out. Godspeed.
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Did I say I hated Lebron? If so, I aplogize because I never meant to. Please point me to where I said that so I can take it back. I'd like to edit that out.
Also - about Horry - yeah he was a really good role player, but he was never the team leader. Had he been the team leader and won all those titles, sure I'd put him in the discussion .But since he wasn't, he doesn't belong.
This is what I saw. I didn't open a link and you said it was all time, so I believed you. I pointed out some obvious omissions. Then you said it obviously says from 73-74. I don't see anywhere on here where it says that, so I assumed since you said it was all time, that you meant that.
I've got a 95% confidence interval that at least 4 of the 5 I have listed have as many titles (or more) in fewer seasons, so the title per season played is higher for all of those 4.
Feel free to look into Value over Replacement Player and Win Share. They're interesting stats, and not just in NBA
I buy into that. But, they aren't the end all be all.
I like debate on the topic, but my discussion about who the GOAT is evolves because as someone else has already pointed out - players play different positions and it's hard to compare Jerry Rice to Tom Brady. SO I have to look at it against the competition they play, or if they were to go up against each other in a full court game who would win?
If it's the latter, Lebron would beat Shaq and Kareem, but that limits them to what they bring to the table. And last I checked basketball wasn't a one on one game. So I have to see what they bring to the table. If you gave the ball to Shaq in the post, nobody was going to stop him unless they fouled him.
I am a naturally objective person. So it's hard for me to have to put subjectivity in this, but I can't for the life of me say that Neil Johnston was better than Magic. So I take titles won (and omitting players who weren't the team leader like Horry) and rate them largely based on that. It isn't the only metric, but it is a contributing factor.
And Jokic should be on there. The guy does it all and is an elite disturber of the ball….who plays the 5.
Lebron's biggest shortcoming is that he's got **** for brains. If he could ever rectify that, he might be tolerable. You can't fix stupid though, so.........