OT: Budgeting Tips

[MSUDOG24]

I am a one income household. Two kids in college. We are careful how we spend money. If we go out to eat it is Hispanic food or Chinese. Sometime Kystal's. We don't do it often. I take out 200.00-week cash for gas and other things that come up. If I have any leftover It goes to the next weeks 200.00. We go to the groceries store every Saturday. We stick to the list. We spend about 1300.00 a month on groceries. Four years ago, it was only about 900.00 a month. We are just careful.

I've done this a few times over the years for "grins" and I don't know if there is a more powerful "financial planning/tracking tool" out there. More often than not I was out by Thursday versus having anything left to roll over. Obviously it's in your hand versus in the ether and it was amazing the affect spending cash had on me mentally and how fast it goes buying random shlt during a routine week.
Didn't become a habit for me but if anyone really wants to get a grip on what you are spending beyond fixed monthly expenses it's certainly eye opening.

Bunch of good thoughts in the thread but like the investment threads the factors and variables with each of us is nearly endless. Hope the OP can at least pick a few things out that might be helpful or at least know they're not alone.

 

[MSUDOG24]

My budgeting tips:

-Don’t get married
-Don’t have kids
-Don’t be an alcoholic
-Don’t be a nicotine addict
-Don’t be a caffeine addict
-Don’t hunt or fish (especially offshore)

I’d be rich had I not failed (and continue to fail) at each of these.

My man! (and I don't hunt or fish)
I'd add, - Don't have grand kids (the latest hole in the bucket). Gramma can do some doting

 

[Seinfeld]

I don't know if the double number is correct, but both spouses working adds stress (getting off for sick childcare, getting off to work/daycare every morning, night time meal time, etc.) and costs like gas, clothes, kids and you being sick from the little petri dishes dragging home every bug from daycare, etc. So, if one or the other's isn't significantly over what childcare costs are, there is an argument that it isn't worth it.

100%. There’s plenty of good that can come from a steady job, especially one where you feel valued. That said, you’re not kidding about the stress that will always exist with two working parents. My wife and I have a pretty good split when it comes to family responsibilities, but there’s rarely a week that goes by without one of the “Who’s picking up Johnny this afternoon?” arguments.

 

[sandwolf.sixpack]

I don't know if the double number is correct, but both spouses working adds stress (getting off for sick childcare, getting off to work/daycare every morning, night time meal time, etc.) and costs like gas, clothes, kids and you being sick from the little petri dishes dragging home every bug from daycare, etc. So, if one or the other's isn't significantly over what childcare costs are, there is an argument that it isn't worth it.

I don't disagree with any of that. I was just curious to see if he was trying to make a financial argument since the point of the OP was that he was stressed because money was tight.

 

[PBDog]

While I do agree with Dave Ramsey on a number of things, he’s definitely hardcore and some of his core principles are far easier said than done.

and dumb…. don’t pay off a 5% mortgage when you can get 10% dividend. use debt wisely to get rich

 

[johnson86-1]

I've done this a few times over the years for "grins" and I don't know if there is a more powerful "financial planning/tracking tool" out there. More often than not I was out by Thursday versus having anything left to roll over. Obviously it's in your hand versus in the ether and it was amazing the affect spending cash had on me mentally and how fast it goes buying random shlt during a routine week.
Didn't become a habit for me but if anyone really wants to get a grip on what you are spending beyond fixed monthly expenses it's certainly eye opening.

Bunch of good thoughts in the thread but like the investment threads the factors and variables with each of us is nearly endless. Hope the OP can at least pick a few things out that might be helpful or at least know they're not alone.

I always hear this, but I have never understood it. If I use nothing but credit or debit cards, I have a record of basically everything I've spent money on and every drug dealer or hooker I've dealt with have looked at me like I'm crazy when I try to pay with a credit card. When I use cash, I don't need to track because I know the dealer and hookers got it all.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

I'm curious what budgeting app/software people are using. I use a quicken version provided free by my bank. It's actually great for tracking spending.

 

[johnson86-1]

I'm curious what budgeting app/software people are using. I use a quicken version provided free by my bank. It's actually great for tracking spending.

I am too. Mint was great and I would have gladly paid for it. I don't know how much money Intuit was losing on Mint, but blows my mind that they didn't at least try to keep it going as a subscription. I built my own spreadsheet but it is a pain having to export transactions from each account.

 

[patdog]

I'm curious what budgeting app/software people are using. I use a quicken version provided free by my bank. It's actually great for tracking spending.

One thing I wouldn't do is over-obsess over every dollar that goes out. You can drive yourself crazy. Of course you have to have a general idea of how much is going for what, but you can overdo it. It's more about your mindset than spending all day crunching numbers.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

One thing I wouldn't do is over-obsess over every dollar that goes out. You can drive yourself crazy. Of course you have to have a general idea of how much is going for what, but you can overdo it. It's more about your mindset than spending all day crunching numbers.

If you saw the spreadsheet I created...lol
It tracks income dates to timeframes of expected billings and tracks my historicals on both. I use it separately from my actual budgeting app so I always have it down to a science basically, right up to the point where it all goes off track lol. But I don't stress over money much anymore. I've learned there are so many safety nets out there, there's no reason for people to get in a bind short of a life-changing event like a major illness etc.

 

[Seinfeld]

I'm curious what budgeting app/software people are using. I use a quicken version provided free by my bank. It's actually great for tracking spending.

I used to use Mint since it was free with TurboTax, but I started using quicken at the beginning of this year too.

It may not be the world’s best at in depth analysis, but it covers the bases that I need. For me, it’s a great way to easily see where your money’s going and to consolidate accounts into one place so that you’re not having to log into 25 different websites or apps every week. Between retirement, credit cards, personal investments, checking accounts, kids’ savings accounts, and mortgages or other loans, that stuff adds up

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I disagree. I get 4% back on my CC on food and pay it off every month. No way I'd be better off using my bank card. Of course, my general opinion of Dave Ramsey is that he is great for someone who has little budgeting knowledge or just needs a plan to add discipline that they can't do on their own.

I don't get this. You basically agree with the guy on the common sense budgeting, but yet you make it a big point to say you disagree with Dave Ramsey over a credit card. It's all about the intent, of course reasonable people can manage a credit card, and Ramsey knows that, but he can't say it, because CCs can be dangerous to stupid people. So better to just cut it out altogether, because that 4% rewards isn't really moving the needle all that much.

At this point it's just become a fad to say you don't like him (DR).

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I'm curious what budgeting app/software people are using. I use a quicken version provided free by my bank. It's actually great for tracking spending.

Excel, baby

17 an app, I look at my phone enough already

 

[Boom Boom]

and dumb…. don’t pay off a 5% mortgage when you can get 10% dividend. use debt wisely to get rich

Works great until there's a crash......

My personal advice is to basically not put all of your eggs in one basket. If a market downturn/crash is going to affect your job and potentially leave you without income....maybe don't be loaded up on debt you can't cover and investments you'll have to take a loss on to free up liquidity.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I don't get this. You basically agree with the guy on the common sense budgeting, but yet you make it a big point to say you disagree with Dave Ramsey over a credit card. It's all about the intent, of course reasonable people can manage a credit card, and Ramsey knows that, but he can't say it, because CCs can be dangerous to stupid people. So better to just cut it out altogether, because that 4% rewards isn't really moving the needle all that much.

At this point it's just become a fad to say you don't like him (DR).

I guess I'm supposed to argue that I've never bought in on Ramsey? Can we talk about the other reasons not to like him like firing people for having pre-marital sex, being sued for $150MM for promoting a fraudulent "Timeshare Exit Team" and suggesting that spouses should be part of the job interview process so you can tell if the candidate is "married to crazy"?

He has certainly helped a lot of people apply common sense money principals that they needed, however, he is not beyond criticism and there are many reasons that someone might not choose to latch onto him for advice.

 

[johnson86-1]

I don't get this. You basically agree with the guy on the common sense budgeting, but yet you make it a big point to say you disagree with Dave Ramsey over a credit card. It's all about the intent, of course reasonable people can manage a credit card, and Ramsey knows that, but he can't say it, because CCs can be dangerous to stupid people. So better to just cut it out altogether, because that 4% rewards isn't really moving the needle all that much.

At this point it's just become a fad to say you don't like him (DR).

This statement sent me down a little bit of a rabbit hole. I was going to guess that you were vastly overestimating people by saying "reasonable people" can manage a card, but apparently slightly less than half of credit card users carry a balance (at least looking back over a 1 year period). Presumably much higher if the question is "ever have carried a balance", but if you haven't carried one in a year, you have probably figured out how to manage it. So I was thinking maybe your statement was right. But I wanted to see what percent of the population can't even qualify for a credit card, and it looks like 30% of americans don't use a credit card, but only about 1/4 of those report that it's because they can't qualify.

So taking those numbers as roughly correct (which may be giving them too much credit) and extrapolating, it would seem that around 90% of Americans have or could have a credit card. 10% or a little less can't qualify. 35% can qualify and carry a balance. 55% can qualify and either don't use them at all or don't carry a balance.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

…So better to just cut it out altogether, because that 4% rewards isn't really moving the needle all that much.

That’s about $240– enough to cover the cost of 10-15 three-pound packs of Wright’s bacon— that’ll move the needle for people.

(I’m using the money example @dorndawg used of 6 percent rewards on up to $6,000 coverage via American Express in his response to @horshack.sixpack — horshack’s reward setup is different of course since he cited 4 percent but didn’t give a max amount covered)

 

[MSUDC11-2.0]

I guess I'm supposed to argue that I've never bought in on Ramsey? Can we talk about the other reasons not to like him like firing people for having pre-marital sex, being sued for $150MM for promoting a fraudulent "Timeshare Exit Team" and suggesting that spouses should be part of the job interview process so you can tell if the candidate is "married to crazy"?

He has certainly helped a lot of people apply common sense money principals that they needed, however, he is not beyond criticism and there are many reasons that someone might not choose to latch onto him for advice.

My personal feelings on Ramsey are that his concepts are great if you are really in a big hole and trying to climb out of it. But if you’re in a decent spot and have some financial know-how or a money guy then there might be some better ways to allocate your funds.

 

[johnson86-1]

Works great until there's a crash......

My personal advice is to basically not put all of your eggs in one basket. If a market downturn/crash is going to affect your job and potentially leave you without income....maybe don't be loaded up on debt you can't cover and investments you'll have to take a loss on to free up liquidity.

I used to think this but if you have a 30 year note that is 5% less than the historical average, that seems like relatively little risk for a good return. Plus, you're house note is going to continually shrink on an inflation adjusted basis, that monthly nut should got easier and easier to manage, especially if you aren't in a jurisdiction where property taxes and/or insurance are going crazy. The principal and interest over a 30 year term is going to basically be cut in half over the term if inflation is at 2.5% per year.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I guess I'm supposed to argue that I've never bought in on Ramsey? Can we talk about the other reasons not to like him like firing people for having pre-marital sex, being sued for $150MM for promoting a fraudulent "Timeshare Exit Team" and suggesting that spouses should be part of the job interview process so you can tell if the candidate is "married to crazy"?

He has certainly helped a lot of people apply common sense money principals that they needed, however, he is not beyond criticism and there are many reasons that someone might not choose to latch onto him for advice.

Those reasons are plenty reason to disagree with him (if you indeed do).

I was responding to the credit card comment, which is a very very very VERY VERY VERY common many sheep say ThEy DoNt LiKe MuH rAmSeY.

Just a pet peeve. Either way, I followed Ramsey and of course I have a credit card that I accumulate rewards on. Many people who know him will tell you that he's not an idiot when it comes to that reality.

 

[dorndawg]

That’s about $240– enough to cover the cost of 10-15 three-pound packs of Wright’s bacon— that’ll move the needle for people.

That's nearly a month's bacon supply for the average Sixpacker

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Those reasons are plenty reason to disagree with him (if you indeed do).

I was responding to the credit card comment, which is a very very very VERY VERY VERY common many sheep say ThEy DoNt LiKe MuH rAmSeY.

Just a pet peeve. Either way, I followed Ramsey and of course I have a credit card that I accumulate rewards on. Many people who know him will tell you that he's not an idiot when it comes to that reality.

Sure, and here's the thing. It's OK to like him, follow his advice, and even be very appreciative for help that he provides you. It's also OK not to.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

That's nearly a month's bacon supply for the average Sixpacker

For you, it’s $360 so you can have a month and half of free bacon.

Talk about living high on the hog…

 

[BoDawg.sixpack]

In your secondary account (I call it my play account which is not linked to any withdrawal rules) you need to get overweight on dividend payouts as you get older. That way if there is a cashflow problem in your monthly income you'll have a trampoline. There are many good US companies that have been around awhile that will pay a dividend likely for the rest of your life. Dow Chemical, Ford and AT&T are just three. You're not worried about the month to month share price of these stocks. You're only concerned with the dividend yield. Increase these holdings after you make contributions to your 401k or 403b.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

That’s about $240– enough to cover the cost of 10-15 three-pound packs of Wright’s bacon— that’ll move the needle for people.

(I’m using the money example @dorndawg used of 6 percent rewards on up to $6,000 coverage via American Express in his response to @horshack.sixpack — horshack’s reward setup is different of course since he cited 4 percent but didn’t give a max amount covered)

Funny enough, I had to go look. Mine is CapitalOne Savor, and I lied. It's 3% cash back on dining, entertainment, popular streaming services and at grocery stores. No limit that I can find. Note that grocery means grocery, like Kroger, not Walmart/Target superstores. 1% back on everything else and 5% back if I use CapitalOne Travel, which I've not done. Regardless, it adds up pretty quickly.

 

[Mts68]

My budgeting tips:

-Don’t get married
-Don’t have kids
-Don’t be an alcoholic
-Don’t be a nicotine addict
-Don’t be a caffeine addict
-Don’t hunt or fish (especially offshore)

I’d be rich had I not failed (and continue to fail) at each of these.

I feel like you’re talking to me. I go against every tip, and am most certainly broke. Thank you

 

[horshack.sixpack]

In your secondary account (I call it my play account which is not linked to any withdrawal rules) you need to get overweight on dividend payouts as you get older. That way if there is a cashflow problem in your monthly income you'll have a trampoline. There are many good US companies that have been around awhile that will pay a dividend likely for the rest of your life. Dow Chemical, Ford and AT&T are just three. You're not worried about the month to month share price of these stocks. You're only concerned with the dividend yield. Increase these holdings after you make contributions to your 401k or 403b.

Fundamental investment strategy that targets dividends keeps you on pretty solid ground as far as an expectation that the company you own stock in will be around long term, while you also pick up some cash flow that rewards you even if the stock is out of favor.

 

[johnson86-1]

In your secondary account (I call it my play account which is not linked to any withdrawal rules) you need to get overweight on dividend payouts as you get older. That way if there is a cashflow problem in your monthly income you'll have a trampoline. There are many good US companies that have been around awhile that will pay a dividend likely for the rest of your life. Dow Chemical, Ford and AT&T are just three. You're not worried about the month to month share price of these stocks. You're only concerned with the dividend yield. Increase these holdings after you make contributions to your 401k or 403b.

Taxes are brutal on dividend payers in a non-sheltered account. I do the same thing, but it'd be much more efficient for me to have dividend payers in my tax advantaged accounts and index funds in my taxable account instead of vice versa. In theory, if I had a liquidity issue and needed to sell when they are down, unless it was an issue that was going to wipe me out, I should be able to sell index funds and use the cash and then also sell dividend funds in my tax advanted accounts and replace them with the index funds I just sold. Then I can reverse that after recovering. I'm just too lazy to mess with that. Also I'm not sure how the wash rules apply to purchases and sales inside and outside of tax deferred accounts.

 

[We Men]

Retired CPA myself and much older than everybody else on this board. The bottom line is this - you will always spend up to the level of your income, no matter what. If you make a lot, as in your case, you will spend a lot. If you make much less, like me, you will spend less. Your budget will take care of itself. Trust me I know.

 

[Boom Boom]

I used to think this but if you have a 30 year note that is 5% less than the historical average, that seems like relatively little risk for a good return. Plus, you're house note is going to continually shrink on an inflation adjusted basis, that monthly nut should got easier and easier to manage, especially if you aren't in a jurisdiction where property taxes and/or insurance are going crazy. The principal and interest over a 30 year term is going to basically be cut in half over the term if inflation is at 2.5% per year.

Even as i posted it I was thinking it's conservative...the odds say you'll come out ahead in the long run. By a lot. But if you're the guy that buys his investments at a peak, then loses his job.....you're not gonna care that you're the outlier.

Also, paying off a 5% mortgage early means every extra payment made is a guaranteed 5%+ return. You can't get that, even in CDs now. It should be prioritized at least after tax advantaged savings, or maybe after an emergency fund. For non-advantaged savings, even an 8% or so return is breaking even after taxes. It's not that great a bet.

 

[johnson86-1]

Even as i posted it I was thinking it's conservative...the odds say you'll come out ahead in the long run. By a lot. But if you're the guy that buys his investments at a peak, then loses his job.....you're not gonna care that you're the outlier.

Also, paying off a 5% mortgage early means every extra payment made is a guaranteed 5%+ return. You can't get that, even in CDs now. It should be prioritized at least after tax advantaged savings, or maybe after an emergency fund. For non-advantaged savings, even an 8% or so return is breaking even after taxes. It's not that great a bet.

I do agree at 5%, it's easy to justify paying off the mortgage. I don't think the case is compelling from an investment standpoint unless you are at 4 and below. That said, a Vanguard cash plus account is paying 4.6% right now. My vanguard money market fund has gotten 5% over the past 12 months. But it's not trending to hit that right now for this calendar year. Looking like it will come in somewhere close to that 4.6% mark also.

But I think the biggest argument against paying it down quickly is that most people could use the cash reserves. If you pay down an extra $50k or $100k and then figure out you either need that money or just have a better use for it, you can't unring the bell. You lose your job, and you can't tell them you're taking the next 20 payments off because you've already paid ahead. And if you need the cash for something else, you can't do a cash out refinance or HELOC and still deduct the interest in most situations. If it's not costing you a major spread between a risk free return and the mortgage interest rate, I think there's a lot of value to the optionality of keeping that cash. That depends on not being the type of person that wants to spend money when you see it in your account, which granted is a pretty big caveat. I don't think I'm awful about it but I probably do get a little more free spending if I see a bunch of cash in my accounts. Somehow helps me more if it's in stocks as it feels psychologically painful to sell those.

 

[Boom Boom]

I do agree at 5%, it's easy to justify paying off the mortgage. I don't think the case is compelling from an investment standpoint unless you are at 4 and below. That said, a Vanguard cash plus account is paying 4.6% right now. My vanguard money market fund has gotten 5% over the past 12 months. But it's not trending to hit that right now for this calendar year. Looking like it will come in somewhere close to that 4.6% mark also.

But I think the biggest argument against paying it down quickly is that most people could use the cash reserves. If you pay down an extra $50k or $100k and then figure out you either need that money or just have a better use for it, you can't unring the bell. You lose your job, and you can't tell them you're taking the next 20 payments off because you've already paid ahead. And if you need the cash for something else, you can't do a cash out refinance or HELOC and still deduct the interest in most situations. If it's not costing you a major spread between a risk free return and the mortgage interest rate, I think there's a lot of value to the optionality of keeping that cash. That depends on not being the type of person that wants to spend money when you see it in your account, which granted is a pretty big caveat. I don't think I'm awful about it but I probably do get a little more free spending if I see a bunch of cash in my accounts. Somehow helps me more if it's in stocks as it feels psychologically painful to sell those.

Agreed. I think right now you put that money in a CD. Not gonna get 5% on a long term one, but you can get 4 maybe, and if you need it you can just eat a little of the interest and have it whenever you need it.

 

[Theconnormead]

I’m a CPA and not financially stupid, but money is still tight for us just like I’m sure it is for most. Inflation has absolutely sucked the last few years, and we had a baby in 2022 who is a great kid but an expensive kid. Lol. I am by no means in poverty, household income is just under $150K and we just bought a $300K house, but the bank account sure feels uncomfortable more often than not.

I got a pretty significant pay raise in 2023 (over $20,000 per year) and truthfully don’t feel like we’ve really felt it much. I purposely withhold as much as possible from taxes, put money in savings and retirement as much as possibly, aggressively pay off debt (only have mortgage and student loans, no car payment and we pay off credit card monthly), we also have some non-negotiable expenses with tithing and daycare that I know some may not have but it’s essential for our life. Ultimately I’ve always felt like we try to handle our business the right way but our margins are always really tight every month. Savings goes up and down which I figure is normal just because major life stuff happens but I’ve never felt like I’m saving as much as I’d really like to.

I dunno, I guess I’m just curious on how everyone else tries to handle their business and any advice you may have. How do you try to stay disciplined on discretionary spending? How much wiggle room do you like to allow yourself for fun? If you have a joint account with your spouse, how do you try to make sure you’re both on the same page with things?

My advice is a little different than most, especially the Dave Ramsey types. Go very lean for several months, long enough to put some cash back for emergencies, I agree with Dave on this, 3 months worth of expenses. Things feel much different when you have cash in the bank. Then look at your budget and live life. Not saying stretch yourself thin but you don't have to live off beans and rice. You are a CPA, and if you are good, at some point in your career your earnings will significantly escalate and that's when you can really save / put back.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

While I do agree with Dave Ramsey on a number of things, he’s definitely hardcore and some of his core principles are far easier said than done.

Dave Ramsey is an amateur. His entire stance on housing and the position it puts people in heading to retirement is crazy town. While I do agree that paying off a house is a great thing to do, it is not more important than investing money when you have a lower than 5% interest on the mortgage. Here is the thing, it is way, way, way better to have the money invested to pay off your house versus paying it off faster for some reason.

Budgeting is a simple math problem mixed in with some personal control and sacrifice. Budgeting is 100% a two person job, you and your wife. Both of you need to sit down and work out the budget. Both of you need to review the budget. Both of you need to know when you decide to go out, you are blowing your budget, which is fine every now and then.

It took me until I was about 30 to figure out how to properly budget. It is tough. Now I have a handle on everything and I basically cash flow everything now. It helps when you get to that part of your life where you make way more money.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

I don’t have much advice, but inflation is so insane. It’s crazy to think that a 6 figure household income is what’s needed just to get by nowadays. 15 years ago 6 figures was luxury.

It's not crazy. We avoided a complete financial system disaster by spending our way out of it. Sucks, but better inflation than a gigantic depression like no one has ever seen before.

Looking back knowing what we actually know now..... sure there are a bunch of fiscal stuff we would do differently. Problem is, we didn't know then what we know now.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

Here's a tip on housing too: Don't buy or build somewhere you can't see a return on your investment, meaning a declining area or even family land you aren't willing to part with. Equity in a home can be a huge asset.

 

[TaleofTwoDogs]

Don’t let your kid play travel ball**

Forget about the home, cars and food this is the advice that makes the best financial sense. Of course, you will have to wait a bunch of years before you see the wisdom of this. **

 

[Boom Boom]

Dave Ramsey is an amateur. His entire stance on housing and the position it puts people in heading to retirement is crazy town. While I do agree that paying off a house is a great thing to do, it is not more important than investing money when you have a lower than 5% interest on the mortgage. Here is the thing, it is way, way, way better to have the money invested to pay off your house versus paying it off faster for some reason.

Budgeting is a simple math problem mixed in with some personal control and sacrifice. Budgeting is 100% a two person job, you and your wife. Both of you need to sit down and work out the budget. Both of you need to review the budget. Both of you need to know when you decide to go out, you are blowing your budget, which is fine every now and then.

It took me until I was about 30 to figure out how to properly budget. It is tough. Now I have a handle on everything and I basically cash flow everything now. It helps when you get to that part of your life where you make way more money.

Yes, but also you want to fill out your various savings "buckets". You want money in a 401k and maybe Roth, so that you have returns that aren't being taxed. You want private savings so you can take out gains up to income or capital gains thresholds without being taxed so as to keep funds in advantaged accounts, but moreso to have accessible funds without owing a penalty (Roth also serves this purpose, but takes time and is limited). You want equity because it limits taxes for changes home ownership, plus has potential estate benefits. These buckets serve different purposes at different ages, pre and post retirement, etc.

You probably don't want to just throw everything at one bucket just because historically it showed the best return (ignoring taxes), which seems to be the base of the argument.

 

[stateu1]

You want equity because it limits taxes for changes home ownership, plus has potential estate benefits. T

Huh?

 

[Boom Boom]

Huh?

Buying a home with investment returns incurs taxes. Primary home ownership is often exempt from certain tax calcs or benefit limits, for example asset test for Medicaid.