OT: Economy - Since SPS is the best place to learn about economics. Thoughts?

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Boom Boom

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I believe you're wise to be scared. The Fed's sway over the global economy has been tremendous for basically 45 years. There will come a point when they can't keep the balls in the air any longer. It might be 6 months it might be 6 years, but we're going to have a depression like correction in these markets

Acknowledging it is not the same as rooting for it.
What's the mechanism here? Profit collapse for corps? Ok, why?

I can see a recession level correction. That can happen at any time, and would not require a disconnect between profits and valuations, just an increase in the P/E ratio to more historical norms. (Even then, IMO this is very unlikely, as there's just so much more capital around these days.) But a depression level correction would require depression level conditions, right? How would that happen?
 

dorndawg

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You wouldn't understand it.
adam sandler reasons GIF
 
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johnson86-1

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What's the mechanism here? Profit collapse for corps? Ok, why?

I can see a recession level correction. That can happen at any time, and would not require a disconnect between profits and valuations, just an increase in the P/E ratio to more historical norms. (Even then, IMO this is very unlikely, as there's just so much more capital around these days.) But a depression level correction would require depression level conditions, right? How would that happen?
Right now, you have the federal government, state and local governments, individuals and healthcare providers spending based on unsustainable levels of debt. If state and local pensions have to face reality, Medicare and social security have to start spending close to revenue (or other government spending is cut or taxes raised to cover it), individuals cut spending either because they recognize pensions aren’t as reliable as they thought and neither is social security, that’d be a lot of potential shocks to happen reasonably near to each other in time. if that happens and debt holders view the fed stepping in as trying to monetize the federal debts and implicit debts, and maybe state and local pensions to the extent they bail them out, what does that end up looking like?

not predicting anything, and think with good monetary policy there is just a recessionary like reduction in standard of living for an extended period, not a depression. But not really sure how all that works eventually if we don’t have a massive productivity spike from AI or nuclear fusion or something.
 

Boom Boom

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Right now, you have the federal government, state and local governments, individuals and healthcare providers spending based on unsustainable levels of debt. If state and local pensions have to face reality, Medicare and social security have to start spending close to revenue (or other government spending is cut or taxes raised to cover it), individuals cut spending either because they recognize pensions aren’t as reliable as they thought and neither is social security, that’d be a lot of potential shocks to happen reasonably near to each other in time. if that happens and debt holders view the fed stepping in as trying to monetize the federal debts and implicit debts, and maybe state and local pensions to the extent they bail them out, what does that end up looking like?

not predicting anything, and think with good monetary policy there is just a recessionary like reduction in standard of living for an extended period, not a depression. But not really sure how all that works eventually if we don’t have a massive productivity spike from AI or nuclear fusion or something.
The debt isn't unsustainable, as returning to past overall levels of taxation will easily take care of enough of the shortfall to sustain it. Raising taxes has an impact of course, but hard to see it causing Depression level conditions. But that is something to consider for those of us with long timelines in our investment plans, that a correction is coming at some point due to this factor.

More likely is we just refuse. We refuse to reform Healthcare and thus continue spending 3 times what we could be for the same results. We refuse to raise the cap on SS taxes. We not only refuse to raise taxes on our underpaying elite class, but we cut them even further. These things would vastly exacerbate the debt crisis, and increase the odds that a liquidity crisis comes along that is politically untenable to bail out.

TLDR: we kinda agree.
 
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johnson86-1

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The debt isn't unsustainable, as returning to past overall levels of taxation will easily take care of enough of the shortfall to sustain it. Raising taxes has an impact of course, but hard to see it causing Depression level conditions. But that is something to consider for those of us with long timelines in our investment plans, that a correction is coming at some point due to this factor.

More likely is we just refuse. We refuse to reform Healthcare and thus continue spending 3 times what we could be for the same results. We refuse to raise the cap on SS taxes. We not only refuse to raise taxes on our underpaying elite class, but we cut them even further. These things would vastly exacerbate the debt crisis, and increase the odds that a liquidity crisis comes along that is politically untenable to bail out.

TLDR: we kinda agree.
I was including projected medicare and social security and state and local pensions in the "debt" when talking about it being unsustainable. Obviously those aren't classified as debt, but I think as a practical matter when it's decided politically who is going to get stiffed, I don't think it's going to make a big difference that they're not debt. There are going to be a bunch of similarly positioned creditors and pensioners fighting between each other and with taxpayers to see who gets the biggest haircut.
 

Beretta.sixpack

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I haven't read all of the responses, and this thread topic should concern everyone.

1. Social Security Fund is set to be insolvent by 2030 (i think that is the year).....the 2024 federal budget proposal includes the largest tax increase in US history. The largest tax increase in US history that does NOTHING to prop up Social Security---ZERO.
(for reference, our current federal budget spends $1.29 for every $1 it takes in---which the last two years is the most it has ever brought in....the 2024 budge proposal is set to spend $1.34 for every $1 it takes in and does zero for SS and does not address any spending cuts)

Thankfully, it is dead on arrival. A massive congressional fight is on the horizon.


2. Interest rate hikes may be going a bit too fast....do we need it? most likely ....the man, the myth, the genius ----Jerome Powell---has openly stated that he is fighting Congress --not inflation--and these rising rates are causing banks to sell off low percentage bonds at a loss to create a cash flow....this is why they don't want you to make a bank run to pull cash out, and also these great deals on 5% CDs for 9 months. Did you see the pause on trading bank stocks? yep.

3. What's scary from a global scale is BRICS (the Brazil, Russia, Iran, China, and Saudi) pact that is aiming to replace the USD with the Yuan in the oil trade. Given that we are now energy dependent and refuse to access our natural resources, this is concerning.

We have issues. We have folks around the world ready to nuke us without firing a weapon.

Regardless if you vote R or D, you have to look at what is currently happening in our country and know the policy makers in charge have no clue what they are doing with the US economy. Personally, my 401K, as of today, is down $282K since Jan 1, 2022.
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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Feb YOY HPA was 3.4%, down from 4.2% in Dec, and from a peak of 18.3%.
Yep, actual housing inflation is basically over now. Yet CPI shows it still climbing because of the 12-16 month data lag. The 8.1% February annual housing inflation in CPI accounts for almost half of the inflation we are seeing in the headline CPI print... Of course that means real time inflation was actually higher this time last year, but as of today, if you just made housing inflation real time, our headline inflation number would be close to 3%, which is mostly food at this point.

Raising rates further is silly at this point, it's just going to make the inevitable cuts bigger when recession hits.
 
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PooPopsBaldHead

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... Personally, my 401K, as of today, is down $282K since Jan 1, 2022.
S&P is down 15% since January 22'
S&P is up 5 % since January 21'
S&P is up 23% since January 20'
S&P is up 165% since January 13'

Hard to get to upset at this point.. Interest rates couldn't stay at zero forever, if the correction holds the October lows, we got damn lucky as far as I am concerned.
 
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Boom Boom

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I was including projected medicare and social security and state and local pensions in the "debt" when talking about it being unsustainable. Obviously those aren't classified as debt, but I think as a practical matter when it's decided politically who is going to get stiffed, I don't think it's going to make a big difference that they're not debt. There are going to be a bunch of similarly positioned creditors and pensioners fighting between each other and with taxpayers to see who gets the biggest haircut.
I was including it too. I doubt anyone takes a haircut. 10 years ago, yeah they probably would. But Reagonomics and neoliberalism are (mostly) dead. Youll probably see tax increases on the benefits, I guess that counts as a haircut. I could see SS being taxed as ordinary income, but not sure if that even moves the needle enough to be worth the political hit.

I would worry more that there's a societal shift away from work that has unintended consequences of causing a financial shock. Or climate change decimating the Florida RE market. Or a foreign conflict disrupting supply chains much worse than we've seen.

ETA: keep in mind, we mostly tax wages and don't tax capital. We could tax capital, but we don't for political corruption reasons, reasons that probably won't hold up if there's a true debt crisis. Now what effect would taxing capital have? Possibly a correction in markets, but little effect on the economy. And probably not even an effect on markets.
 
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Beretta.sixpack

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I will also add that the fed....or rather i should say, the far left, is trying to propose taxing UNREALIZED gains on capital.....this has FAILED in every country that has attempted to do this in the history of the world....

that is who is running the country right now....
 
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Boom Boom

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I will also add that the fed....or rather i should say, the far left, is trying to propose taxing UNREALIZED gains on capital.....this has FAILED in every country that has attempted to do this in the history of the world....

that is who is running the country right now....
I pay taxes on the unrealized gains of my real estate every year.

Yes, adults are running the country now. Thank God.
 

Leeshouldveflanked

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Nov 12, 2016
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I haven't read all of the responses, and this thread topic should concern everyone.

1. Social Security Fund is set to be insolvent by 2030 (i think that is the year).....the 2024 federal budget proposal includes the largest tax increase in US history. The largest tax increase in US history that does NOTHING to prop up Social Security---ZERO.
(for reference, our current federal budget spends $1.29 for every $1 it takes in---which the last two years is the most it has ever brought in....the 2024 budge proposal is set to spend $1.34 for every $1 it takes in and does zero for SS and does not address any spending cuts)

Thankfully, it is dead on arrival. A massive congressional fight is on the horizon.


2. Interest rate hikes may be going a bit too fast....do we need it? most likely ....the man, the myth, the genius ----Jerome Powell---has openly stated that he is fighting Congress --not inflation--and these rising rates are causing banks to sell off low percentage bonds at a loss to create a cash flow....this is why they don't want you to make a bank run to pull cash out, and also these great deals on 5% CDs for 9 months. Did you see the pause on trading bank stocks? yep.

3. What's scary from a global scale is BRICS (the Brazil, Russia, Iran, China, and Saudi) pact that is aiming to replace the USD with the Yuan in the oil trade. Given that we are now energy dependent and refuse to access our natural resources, this is concerning.

We have issues. We have folks around the world ready to nuke us without firing a weapon.

Regardless if you vote R or D, you have to look at what is currently happening in our country and know the policy makers in charge have no clue what they are doing with the US economy. Personally, my 401K, as of today, is down $282K since Jan 1, 2022.
Point #3 could be the most catastrophic. A lot depends what Saudi Arabia does. That would make the US Dollar basically useless if the Saudi’s switch to the Yuan.
 

Pilgrimdawg

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Thread Ruination = Processing
May I offer a suggestion? I put Golfer on ignore sometime back and my quality of life improved immediately. Just a suggestion. He is certainly free to post anything he wants to within board rules but i don’t think there is any chance that I would ever agree with any of his opinions and most of them just pi$$ me off so I decided that life was better without his commentary. I wish him well in life but I am not interested in wasting time on anything he has to say.
 

mstateglfr

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Feb 24, 2008
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May I offer a suggestion? I put Golfer on ignore sometime back and my quality of life improved immediately. Just a suggestion. He is certainly free to post anything he wants to within board rules but i don’t think there is any chance that I would ever agree with any of his opinions and most of them just pi$$ me off so I decided that life was better without his commentary. I wish him well in life but I am not interested in wasting time on anything he has to say.
The ignore button exists so if people feel they need to use it, more power to them.

Personally, if I were to ever find I cant manage to read views that sometimes conflict or challenge mine, I would need to really look at how I got to where I am and figure out how to change.

As for this thread, it has been a great discussion where I have agreed and disagreed with some interpretations and views. I certainly don't think anything I posted has been overtly offensive or so terrible that it would ruin the thread.

Goat is just goat- he is a fool and was trolling and just trying to be a dick instead of actually participating in the thread. He is harmless and doesn't need advice on how to ignore views he can't handle, though it's kind of you to take time to suggest that to him.

It's unfortunate you won't see this since I am on ignore, but perhaps it will resonate with others.
 

PBDog

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MMT says to print like hell to keep people employed. Then you must raise taxes to slow spending. They have to wash out abut 30T of worldwide printing. There will be a hard landing

ETA: buy bitcoin
 

She Mate Me

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Dec 7, 2008
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The ignore button exists so if people feel they need to use it, more power to them.

Personally, if I were to ever find I cant manage to read views that sometimes conflict or challenge mine, I would need to really look at how I got to where I am and figure out how to change.

As for this thread, it has been a great discussion where I have agreed and disagreed with some interpretations and views. I certainly don't think anything I posted has been overtly offensive or so terrible that it would ruin the thread.

Goat is just goat- he is a fool and was trolling and just trying to be a dick instead of actually participating in the thread. He is harmless and doesn't need advice on how to ignore views he can't handle, though it's kind of you to take time to suggest that to him.

It's unfortunate you won't see this since I am on ignore, but perhaps it will resonate with others.

Why am I not surprised that you typed a 5 paragraph response to a man who already told you he'll never read it?
 

paindonthurt

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Jun 27, 2009
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The ignore button exists so if people feel they need to use it, more power to them.

Personally, if I were to ever find I cant manage to read views that sometimes conflict or challenge mine, I would need to really look at how I got to where I am and figure out how to change.

As for this thread, it has been a great discussion where I have agreed and disagreed with some interpretations and views. I certainly don't think anything I posted has been overtly offensive or so terrible that it would ruin the thread.

Goat is just goat- he is a fool and was trolling and just trying to be a dick instead of actually participating in the thread. He is harmless and doesn't need advice on how to ignore views he can't handle, though it's kind of you to take time to suggest that to him.

It's unfortunate you won't see this since I am on ignore, but perhaps it will resonate with others.
Just curious as to your take on taxing unrealized gains?

Good idea? Yes or no?
 

She Mate Me

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But I'd be willing to bet he did. It's a message board: you just can't help yourself.

Well, he did put him on ignore, but I suppose he can see the message in the later posts that quoted it. Not sure.

I, for one, have become decent at just not spending much time in the threads that attract the same group of former debate team superstars.
 

Boosh

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Sep 14, 2017
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I pay taxes on the unrealized gains of my real estate every year.

Yes, adults are running the country now. Thank God.
You do not pay taxes on your unrealized gains. You pay taxes on a very low basis point that goes back to when you originally bought your property. In my city they have an intangible property tax. It is a tax on the equipment a business has purchased. The business paid taxes on its income, then paid taxes when it bought equipment, and this makes the business pay a yearly tax for owning the equipment. This is close to paying taxes on unrealized gains but not as bad. Both are terrible, terrible, terrible ideas and I am in constant debate with city council to remove this horrific tax. Anyone in favor of taxing unrealized gains hates Americans and doesn't want everyone a chance to succeed but rather everyone be the same and for there to be ceilings on success.
 

Podgy

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The "craziest " checks I've ever seen was the insane spending on "Covid relief". I doubt that over 30-40% of that money hit it's mark . Billions and billions of dollars went to businesses and people who didn't need it or deserve it. Basically most of it went straight towards enhancing the inflation we see today.
You should see what was spent in Iraq and Afghanistan too. But, to be fair, we did get a ton of awesome stuff for it that I think we can resell on eBay or Craiglist or Etsy to get some of our money back.***
 
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horshack.sixpack

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Oct 30, 2012
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I pay taxes on the unrealized gains of my real estate every year.

Yes, adults are running the country now. Thank God.
I think you are alluding to being taxed on assessed value? I don’t see a logical argument for taxing unrealized gains on stocks in my brokerage account. I was taxed when I earned it and I have just as big of a chance of losing those unrealized gains as adding to them. I’m not suggesting that the government won’t find ways to take more money from me if they think they need it, but there are a lot of other ways that at least feel more fair.

what am I missing?
 
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Boom Boom

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If you think taxing unrealized capital gains is a good idea, you are way dumber than I knew you already were and it’s hard for me to fathom how you survive daily.
It's not that I think it's the best idea, it's that I think the alternatives are worse. If you think this country can survive without taxing the massive capital sloshing around, then you are dumber than you think I am.
 

Boom Boom

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I think you are alluding to being taxed on assessed value? I don’t see a logical argument for taxing unrealized gains on stocks in my brokerage account. I was taxed when I earned it and I have just as big of a chance of losing those unrealized gains as adding to them. I’m not suggesting that the government won’t find ways to take nor e money from me if they think they need it, but there are a lot of other ways that at least feel more fair.

what am I missing?
The argument is not to tax YOUR brokerage account. It's to tax accounts with billions.

The logical argument is that capital flows have outgrown the income tax system. There's too much money moving around completely outside of our taxation system. We need something else. The non logical argument is "I was taxed when I earned it" (as if all money isn't taxed already) and "I could lose it" (as if that doesn't apply to income).

For stocks, I suppose we could come up with a tax based on yearly profit of the company, not market value of the stock? A 5 year holding allowance before taxation (the negative being tax harvesting on steroids in any dip)? But IMO I think a tax on market value helps more than it hurts.

It could SO EASILY be made fair. Wrap it in to a true minimum effective tax rate. Making great income? probably won't owe wealth tax as you've already met the minimum effective tax rate. Paying no income tax or SS tax? Probably gonna owe some wealth tax if you have a **** ton.
 

GloryDawg

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I have never viewed FICA as a tax. It is social insurance and view it as insurance payment. If they raise my premiums, I don't have a problem with it. Some of the rules need to be changed along with the premium increase. They have changed a few things over the years and that has help but still some crazy rules. It is crazy that no matter how many wives I have had as long as I was married to each of them 10 years, they are entitling half of the equivalence of what I receive. I know a guy who was married to three different women and each of them along with him are drawing off his Social Security. Four for the price of one. Hell of a bargain. Many others drain on the system that needs to be adjusted.
 
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