OT: Flores is salty

[tacodawg]

https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1490852376076378112?s=21

This is incredible. Flores and his legal team are making him look like a total salt block.

 

[patdog]

It’s obviously racism. **

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

I noticed that given the opportunity to spend his own money to hire someone, Mr. Flores hired two white lawyers. Were there no black lawyers available?

 

[tacodawg]

“Hire black guys!”

*Texans hire black guy*

“Not THAT black guy! ME!”

 

[aTotal360]

I would be salty too if someone picked Lovie Smith over me.

 

[ZombieKissinger]

Stand up for racial inequality in the NFL? Maybe he would've gotten hired if he'd kneeled down**

 

[ronpolk]

“Hire black guys!”

*Texans hire black guy*

“Not THAT black guy! ME!”

That’s exactly what the problem is. Flo is got some serious issues. He had no problem with the process until the giants passed him over. It’s clear he’s decided he does not want to coach but rather become the coaching version of kaepernick

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Get paid to do nothing.

 

[mstateglfr]

The last comment in that released statement is nothing different from what many on here said last week.
It's a common view- he has tanked his chance. That narrative was repeated on here and all over message boards and sports talk radio.
So now that his lawyers send out a statement claiming the same thing...its bad/salty/wrong?


The last comment is unsubstantiated, but at the same time, come on. Lovie Smith? He may do great, but really...Lovie?

 

[ZombieKissinger]

It's salty because the lawyers' take made him out to be a victim of his choice. The people predicting he wouldn't be hired again because of what he was doing put the responsibility on Flores because of the **** he was pulling. It's the difference of someone being unfairly denied a job because of their nobility vs someone being denied a job because of their personal decision to give up trying to be a coach and instead become a Kaepernick

 

[mstateglfr]

In a league where 70% of players are black, are there really still not enough ex-players at the college and pro level to warrant more than 1 to 3 black head coaches?
That many people have been in the game for that long and still there aren't enough great potential head coaching candidates to fill more than 3 positions at the high end?


I am sure there are a number of reasons why this is the case. And I am sure many(most) have nothing to do with actively wanting to oppress black people. Yet still, the results continue to speak for themselves.

Diversity for the sake of diversity is worthless. It's dumb.
Diversity for the sake of more viewpoints, more approaches to problem solving, and more life experiences is invaluable.

 

[ZombieKissinger]

I'd be interested to see when the current head coaches and coordinators started making moves toward becoming coaches. I think by the time you get to coordinator > head coach, or even position coach > coordinator, you've missed it. My take is that it's the factors involved with who's deciding to go into coaching and when/how they started preparing. Would be interesting to see a report on that.

 

[blacklistedbully]

Diversity for the sake of more viewpoints, more approaches to problem solving, and more life experiences is invaluable.

Who says? What is it about a person's skin color that causes them to have a different viewpoint, or different approaches to problem-solving, or life experiences that are presumed by you to be invaluable? Seems to me these are all things that don't require a person to be of any particular skin color.

In fact, I'd argue skin color should be a non-factor unless there is evidence someone more qualified was passed over because of said skin color. If that happens today, it damn sure needs to be dealt with. But I have grown beyond weary of you leftists pushing identity politics...driving increased division, & probably setting the country back, rather than moving forward. It's polarizing BS and it's absurd.

 

[missouridawg]

In a league where 70% of players are black, are there really still not enough ex-players at the college and pro level to warrant more than 1 to 3 black head coaches?
That many people have been in the game for that long and still there aren't enough great potential head coaching candidates to fill more than 3 positions at the high end?


I am sure there are a number of reasons why this is the case. And I am sure many(most) have nothing to do with actively wanting to oppress black people. Yet still, the results continue to speak for themselves.

Diversity for the sake of diversity is worthless. It's dumb.
Diversity for the sake of more viewpoints, more approaches to problem solving, and more life experiences is invaluable.

Is there any data to support the idea that former players make the best head coaches? Or even assistant coaches?

 

[blacklistedbully]

In the history of the NFL, I believe there has been a total of 17 HC's that had been star players in the NFL. Think about how many coaches there have been since the beginning, then do the math. Being a great player has not correlated into being a HC on many occasions for whatever reason, and this goes back to when the NFL was predominately filled with white players.
https://www.nfl.com/photos/players-turned-coaches-09000d5d82385840

 

[blacklistedbully]

One might even argue that since the vast majority of players are black, that the white players who weren't good enough to earn a spot on a roster as a player should be more inclined to focus on coaching opportunities, given that would be the only avenue left to participate in football.

Not saying that's the case, just that it sounds plausible. To be sure, there has been discrimination in the past. For a long time, many considered the QB position and HC positions as beyond the capability of black men. This was of course ignorant, but we have gotten well past that and have decades ago now.

 

[11thEagleFan]

I was surprised when he was fired after winning 19 games in two seasons. And then after seeing how he has handled this, I thought about the old saying: “Some people bring joy wherever they go. Others, whenever they go.”

 

[WrapItDog]

In a league where 70% of players are black, are there really still not enough ex-players at the college and pro level to warrant more than 1 to 3 black head coaches?

Here's what Jason Whitlock (a black sports reporter) has to say about that

-At no point have we ever addressed the real truth, that the people who start out as coaches are mostly college GAs and 95% of them are white guys. GA jobs pay nothing. Many black men can't take unpaid jobs because they have baby mamas to take care of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtgA4H6FhNs

 

[goodknight]

That’s an insult to Smith

 

[Irondawg]

You also have Leftwich not getting a HC because he didn’t want to work with the GM of the team that wanted him.

Granted the GM is a bad GM and those guys can torpedo a coaches career but they were seemingly set to hire a black coach because they thought he was the best fit for their team.

Just like Leftwich was rumored for the Jags job as soon as they canned Urban the Giants were linked to Dabool and then once they hired a guy from Bills to be the GM that was a lock.

Flores seems to be a good coach that is also hard to work with. Not totally uncommon but it tends to limit your opportunities.

 

[SteelCurtain74]

There are currently 7 black General managers in the NFL:
Minnesota Vikings, Atlanta Falcons, Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions, Cleveland Browns, Washington Commanders and wait for it...the Miami Dolphins. In fact, the Dolphins GM is the longest tenured of the 7.

The Bears just hired Eberflus, a white guy, the Dolphins just hired McDonald, a white guy, the Lions hired Campbell, a white guy, Vikings just hired O'Connell, a white guy.

I'm not saying that qualified black coaches have not been passed over but it may not be solely about their race. Personally I think Leftwich should have gotten the Jacksonville job over Pederson.

I'm a diehard fan of a team that hired Tomlin and all the man has done is gone 15 years without a losing record and won a Super Bowl. You would think as much of a copycat league the NFL is, teams would be trying to find the next Tomlin.

 

[dog12]

I noticed that given the opportunity to spend his own money to hire someone, Mr. Flores hired two white lawyers. Were there no black lawyers available?

That is ironic, isn't it?

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

What a racist thing to say

 

[Irondawg]

There are currently 7 black General managers in the NFL:
Minnesota Vikings, Atlanta Falcons, Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions, Cleveland Browns, Washington Commanders and wait for it...the Miami Dolphins. In fact, the Dolphins GM is the longest tenured of the 7.

The Bears just hired Eberflus, a white guy, the Dolphins just hired McDonald, a white guy, the Lions hired Campbell, a white guy, Vikings just hired O'Connell, a white guy.

I'm not saying that qualified black coaches have not been passed over but it may not be solely about their race. Personally I think Leftwich should have gotten the Jacksonville job over Pederson.

I'm a diehard fan of a team that hired Tomlin and all the man has done is gone 15 years without a losing record and won a Super Bowl. You would think as much of a copycat league the NFL is, teams would be trying to find the next Tomlin.

That’s pretty interesting. Also note that Leftwich told the Jags he wasn’t interested if they kept their unpopular gm. They only went to Pederson after the owner refused to fire the gm to get Byron.

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

Maybe the Venn diagram of skills between great player and great coach don’t overlap as much as you’d expect.

 

[paindonthurt]

Lovie Smiths resume is better than Flores at this point.

But in those famous words, I guess he’s not “black enough”.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

The Dolphins hired Mike McDaniel who is actually biracial with a black father.

 

[mstateglfr]

Who says? What is it about a person's skin color that causes them to have a different viewpoint, or different approaches to problem-solving, or life experiences that are presumed by you to be invaluable? Seems to me these are all things that don't require a person to be of any particular skin color.

In fact, I'd argue skin color should be a non-factor unless there is evidence someone more qualified was passed over because of said skin color. If that happens today, it damn sure needs to be dealt with. But I have grown beyond weary of you leftists pushing identity politics...driving increased division, & probably setting the country back, rather than moving forward. It's polarizing BS and it's absurd.

Diversity isnt just skin color. It is culture, collective experiences up to that point, etc. In this instance it is skin, but the comment of mine that you quote is about diversity overall.

 

[mstateglfr]

Is there any data to support the idea that former players make the best head coaches? Or even assistant coaches?

What I posted is this...

are there really still not enough ex-players at the college and pro level to warrant more than 1 to 3 black head coaches?

Based on the fact that only a few head coaches at the college or pro level never played college football, I would say there is overwhelming evidence that former players make the best head coaches. They tend to make the best position coaches too since they played the game.

 

[mstateglfr]

Here's what Jason Whitlock (a black sports reporter) has to say about that

-At no point have we ever addressed the real truth, that the people who start out as coaches are mostly college GAs and 95% of them are white guys. GA jobs pay nothing. Many black men can't take unpaid jobs because they have baby mamas to take care of.

Noted.

 

[mstateglfr]

Maybe the Venn diagram of skills between great player and great coach don’t overlap as much as you’d expect.

My comment.

are there really still not enough ex-players at the college and pro level to warrant more than 1 to 3 black head coaches?

Based on the fact that the overwhelming super majority of coaches at the college and pro level played at least college football, I feel my quoted question is worthy of discussion.

 

[mstateglfr]

In the history of the NFL, I believe there has been a total of 17 HC's that had been star players in the NFL. Think about how many coaches there have been since the beginning, then do the math. Being a great player has not correlated into being a HC on many occasions for whatever reason, and this goes back to when the NFL was predominately filled with white players.
https://www.nfl.com/photos/players-turned-coaches-09000d5d82385840

me-

are there really still not enough ex-players at the college and pro level to warrant more than 1 to 3 black head coaches?

I agree that you dont need to be a great player to be a head coach. I referenced a pool of players that includes college level, of which there are something like 75,000 players in a given season.

 

[Smoked Toag]

me-


I agree that you dont need to be a great player to be a head coach. I referenced a pool of players that includes college level, of which there are something like 75,000 players in a given season.

There are tons of coaches who are ex-players because that is the pool of people that always goes into coaching. Which is a form of '-ism' itself. Coaching and playing are two different things, but I do think that you need 'some' playing experience to be a good coach, so it's probably a moot point anyway.

 

[mstateglfr]

Lovie Smiths resume is better than Flores at this point.

But in those famous words, I guess he’s not “black enough”.

Lovie finished last or second to last in his NFL division 7 out of 11 seasons. He made the playoffs 3 out of 11 seasons. He had an 8-24 record at Tampa Bay. He had a 17-39 record at Illinois and finished last or second to last in the 7 team division 4 times. He made 1 bowl game in 5 seasons and lost that. He had a losing record every year at Illinois.
He did make a super bowl though, so I guess that overwrites all the mediocrity and flat out bad records?

The tough part of all this is that NFL head coaches are so reliant on the front office to give them talent. Same with the NBA. A coach can do a great job with what he has, but if he has crap, the result will still be pretty close to crap.
And vice versa- if the team has talent the coach has a good chance of looking brilliant. Flores at Miami had a lack of talent. Lovie at Chicago had a lack of talent for some years and underachieved other years, while doing really well once. When Lovie then had control of both making the roster and coaching it, at Illinois, it was a dumpster fire.

It may be ageism, but perhaps the guy who doesnt have a long list of underwhelming results is a good pick when you have 2 similar options based on results.

 

[johnson86-1]

In a league where 70% of players are black, are there really still not enough ex-players at the college and pro level to warrant more than 1 to 3 black head coaches?
That many people have been in the game for that long and still there aren't enough great potential head coaching candidates to fill more than 3 positions at the high end?


I am sure there are a number of reasons why this is the case. And I am sure many(most) have nothing to do with actively wanting to oppress black people. Yet still, the results continue to speak for themselves.

Diversity for the sake of diversity is worthless. It's dumb.
Diversity for the sake of more viewpoints, more approaches to problem solving, and more life experiences is invaluable.

What is the "correct" number of black head coaches? Why is there apparently a correct number of black head coaches and not a correct number of black cornerbacks? When you get to the extreme tails of any distribution, there is no reason to expect it to be representative of the population as a whole. It certainly may be, but it just as likely won't be. Jamaica is overrepresented in world class sprinters for some reason(s), presumably some combination of culture, environment, and genetics. It doesn't make sense to look at the olympics and say the professional track and field community is doing a poor job of identifying diverse world class sprinters. They aren't the ones creating the conditions, whatever they are, that results in Jamaica being over represented. Certainly it makes sense for NFL organizations to consider whether they are missing good talent because of counterproductive filters at their level, but it's ridiculous how many people are just convinced that it must be racism if the 99.99th percentile of a particular distribution isn't representative of the population as a whole.

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

the overwhelming super majority of coaches at the college and pro level played at least college football, I feel my quoted question is worthy of discussion.

Baker, Saginaw Valley State, Northern Michigan, Pacific, Wesleyan, Eastern Illinois, Mount Union, Dayton, Penn, 2 from William & Mary & 2 from Miami (OH).

That's 13, or 41% of NFL head coaches in the 2021-22 season who did not play Power 5 college football.

The SEC, who supplies the NFL with the most on the field talent by a wide margin, has exactly one head coach (Dan Campbell, Texas A&M).

Sean McVay was the Georgia high school football player of the year in the same class with Calvin Johnson. While Calvin Johnson was beginning the second season of his pro career, McVay had finished college and was beginning his coaching career with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. In 2016 when Johnson retired, McVay (who had been coaching pro football for eight years now) had worked his way up to offensive coordinator of the then Washington Redskins.

That's why former players have trouble getting head coaching jobs. While they were playing, the people they are interviewing against were coaching.

 

[johnson86-1]

My comment.



Based on the fact that the overwhelming super majority of coaches at the college and pro level played at least college football, I feel my quoted question is worthy of discussion.

How much, on average, do black coaches overachieve in the NFL? I actually do think it's plausible if not likely that NFL presidents hire coaches in part on things like how much they like and/or relate to the candidate, and that probably works against black candidates (and other candidates that are not like the typical president, so inarticulate, "blue collar" white coaches also). BUt if that's the case, you should see some overperformance by black head coaches because only the very best candidates get hired. I'm thinking you probably will find that, just based on Mike Tomlin being a good bit better than 1/20 head coach (or whatever the number of black head coaches there have been), and that's That should be easy enough information to gather, if a little time intensive.

 

[mstateglfr]

What is the "correct" number of black head coaches? Why is there apparently a correct number of black head coaches and not a correct number of black cornerbacks?

Thats a really good question and something that is worth discussing. I genuinely think that such a discussion here would end in a pile of **** because this place is historically terrible at being able to discuss race, diversity, or employment without slinging crap around and refusing to consider other points.

Personally, I dont think there is a 'correct' number of black head coaches. I also dont think there is a 'correct' number of black assistant coaches or black corners. Something like this, to me, is an issue that has no clear end point. I dont think % of black head coaches should match the % of black players. I wouldnt think twice if it were more or if it were less. When it is so glaringly out of whack, I think it deserves discussion.
I guess the correct number of black head coaches is when it stops being an issue. That isnt a clear answer, I understand, but its sort of how RBG answered a question about female judicial representation.

There are 14 black FBS coaches which is 10% of coaches. That is really surprising to me, given the pool from which to pick from. It would be really neat to learn, without bias, about why that is.
FBS is 46% black when it comes to players. That is also surprising as I figured it would be higher.


Anyways, this topic is way too nuanced for SPS. Basically, if a subject is too nuanced for Twitter, apply that to SPS. Very few can manage to stop and discuss without throwing in their political views and playing a game of gotcha.

 

[mstateglfr]

Baker, Saginaw Valley State, Northern Michigan, Pacific, Wesleyan, Eastern Illinois, Mount Union, Dayton, Penn, 2 from William & Mary & 2 from Miami (OH).

That's 13, or 41% of NFL head coaches in the 2021-22 season who did not play Power 5 college football.

The SEC, who supplies the NFL with the most on the field talent by a wide margin, has exactly one head coach (Dan Campbell, Texas A&M).

Sean McVay was the Georgia high school football player of the year in the same class with Calvin Johnson. While Calvin Johnson was beginning the second season of his pro career, McVay had finished college and was beginning his coaching career with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. In 2016 when Johnson retired, McVay (who had been coaching pro football for eight years now) had worked his way up to offensive coordinator of the then Washington Redskins.

That's why former players have trouble getting head coaching jobs. While they were playing, the people they are interviewing against were coaching.

You make a neat point with your last sentence and that is worth considering. I for one will definitely think about it.
Your post doesnt really move the needle when it comes to explaining why there are only 1-3 black head coaches in the NFL recently(or 10% of P5 head coaches being black). Sure, Calvin Johnson was playing while a white teammate was beginning his coaching career.
Its like you and others misread my post and applied it only to former NFL players having a tough time getting head coaching jobs. I didnt say that and I dont think it.

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

Your post doesnt really move the needle when it comes to explaining why there are only 1-3 black head coaches in the NFL recently(or 10% of P5 head coaches being black).

When the racial discrimination against white cornerbacks finally ends, then we can talk about racial percentages in the coaching ranks.