OT: Flores is salty
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Lovie Smith is a black Norv Turner. Keeps getting head coaching jobs despite being a mediocre to bad head coach. Although Smith did at least make a Super Bowl, something Turner never did.
And now we are at the point where comments are not genuine and are instead dismissive of the concern and issue as a whole. I knew it would get to this point, but hoped it would be delayed a bit.
Lovie Smith went 81-63 with the Bears, only going worse than 7-9 in his first season. Yes, he sucked at Tampa and at Illinois, but I'm not sure either of those was a situation where you really could win at the time. Certainly no one at Illinois has won much of anything in a long, long time; and I never thought he was a good fit for college football. I personally don't think he's a good hire, but I can see how someone could look at his record at Chicago and hire him.
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I don't hear you screaming for diversity among NBA players. Seems you'd be just as distraught over the fact that 97% of NBA players are black, when blacks make up 13% of the population of the United States
Again, you are just assuming it is out of whack. There are plenty of black head coaches in college football, yet you don't see them dominating. The coaches in the playoffs are pretty whitebread. This is despite having what you would think would be an advantage in recruiting for many of the best athletes. It doesn't seem obvious that black coaches are getting shorted opportunities. James Franklin (I guess he's biracial? Not really sure) seemed to rise pretty quickly and get opportunities the he deserved? Was Charlie Strong denied opporutnities? Ty Whilingham? Kevin Sumlin? Herm Edwards? Dennis Green? Toney Dungy? Again, I think it's plausible if not likely that there is some bias (not necessarily racial although it could be) that filters black candidates out disproportionately, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume that head coach demographics would be similar to the general population (much less the population of college athletes) based based on the performance of college head coaches.
I am not screaming for diversity among NBA players because I dont scream for diversity. If you think any of this is screaming, you need to step back and get some perspective. I offered up a different view from the overwhelming majority on this board and have calmly continued the conversation.
I did not start this thread or any thread about diversity in head coaching positions. I am not screaming for it.
Also, 74% of the NBA is black.
I have commented on this topic because it was started as a thread and is a current event in sports. There is no screaming for diversity by me.
Yes, all of this is based on each of our perceptions. I perceive it as glaringly out of whack. Others view it as how it should be. And then other others view it as there shouldnt be any discussion at all and whatever happens happens- a very laisse faire approach, until it affects them in some manner at which point there needs to be regulation!(<--that is based on comments from other topics, to be clear).
But yeah, is all based on each of our perceptions. Like I said, I dont have some hard number for what is acceptable. 10? 12? Sure if that were the case I bet we wouldnt have this discussion so I guess it would be 'enough' to placate enough people for it to not be an issue. Get it to 20 black head coaches and there will be people who think that isnt enough. But if that group is the far outlier, then they will be largely ignored and we will look back with time and call it progress(whether it is or isnt, who knows).
I can say that if there were 10 NFL head coaches who identify as black, I certainly would have rolled my eyes at Flores' claim.
Looks to me like simply saying white guys don't do well as players in the NBA and black guys don't do well as coaches in the NFL and moving on would be the essence of accepting "diversity" .
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It boils down to this:
1) Black guys are the ones who initially were on the receiving end of the racism, so the idea that they are now 75% of the NFL/NBA is them just taking over where they likely should have been.
2) It's the ratio that is so out of whack, that's causing the storm. 10% coaches to 75% players, or whatever it is. If that were closer, this likely isn't an issue.
3) White coaches are usually chosen mostly due to cronyism, not racism. There is likely some racism in there, but I don't think it's widespread. People want to win, and they usually go with who they know, etc.
4) Flores is using the race card basically because it's there and he can. Who knows if it was truly racist or just cronyism. It probably appears racist to him. But I know this, how he was treated in Miami was pretty damn rough. We all would be pissed off had that happened to us, nobody wants to be done that way.
Nothing will ever be totally fair, so folks are just working within the system. I accepted this long ago. If I'm Flores, yeah I'd be pissed, and I'd probably run my mouth about it, but I doubt I'd sue. I'd just go try and get another job and try to shove it up everybody's asses. That makes me wonder about all the true motives.
1) Black guys are the ones who initially were on the receiving end of the racism, so the idea that they are now 75% of the NFL/NBA is them just taking over where they likely should have been.
2) It's the ratio that is so out of whack, that's causing the storm. 10% coaches to 75% players, or whatever it is. If that were closer, this likely isn't an issue.
3) White coaches are usually chosen mostly due to cronyism, not racism. There is likely some racism in there, but I don't think it's widespread. People want to win, and they usually go with who they know, etc.
4) Flores is using the race card basically because it's there and he can. Who knows if it was truly racist or just cronyism. It probably appears racist to him. But I know this, how he was treated in Miami was pretty damn rough. We all would be pissed off had that happened to us, nobody wants to be done that way.
Nothing will ever be totally fair, so folks are just working within the system. I accepted this long ago. If I'm Flores, yeah I'd be pissed, and I'd probably run my mouth about it, but I doubt I'd sue. I'd just go try and get another job and try to shove it up everybody's asses. That makes me wonder about all the true motives.
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my point exactly. but to the pearl clutchers on here, you can say the former with no consequences, but you absolutely can't say the latter. epitome of hypocrisy
The point of this thread was that the guy has screwed himself, and doesn't even have the self-awareness to realize it. He will be black-balled now (pardon the pun). The guy may have turned out to be another Mike Tomlin (whom I greatly respect and admire), but now we will never know. Nobody promised fairness in the Bill of Rights. Only opportunity
To be clear, it's not based on your perceptions, it's based on your assumption(s). You have some assumption of what NFL head coaches should generally look like. I would argue that assumption is more or less unwarranted, just like it would be for pretty much the tail end of distribution of whatever metrics/profession you want to look at. I don't know what percentage of the top concert violinists, olympic figure skaters, world class sprinters, distance runners, NFL QBs, NFL coaches, NFL CBs, NFL OL, Fortune 500 CEOs, etc. should be what race. Lots of random filters can have outsized impacts on who composes the tail ends of distributions like that.
That is interesting. I disagree, clearly, but its interesting.
I can self assess and figure out what its based on and its for sure perception. How I perceive what is 'enough' is what I am referring to. What is an assumption is that I assume others evaluate the same way I do.
Someone can look at all NFL coaches lined up and view that as OK. Someone else can do the same and view it as out of balance. That evaluation is how each perceives what the makeup should be compared to what it is. That evaluation isnt people assuming how the makeup should be.
I hear you, but the optics seem so bad for the NFL if he doesn't coach again. They're going to have some helmets that say "End Racism" on the field on Sunday. I'm not sure you can broadcast that message and blackball the 40-year old promising, young African American coach out of the league. Plus, Glazer described him as "will get a job in 2 seconds" before it was announced the Dolphins were moving on. He was a very bright star when the season ended.
Can we agree that if he gets any job, he'll be a HC again? There's no way he can be a DC for the next 40 years. If he's out, he's all out - right?
Can we agree that if he gets any job, he'll be a HC again? There's no way he can be a DC for the next 40 years. If he's out, he's all out - right?
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Well ****, I'm arguing semantics here which is generally a stupid thing to do (and this is probably no exception), but your perception that the demographics of NFL coaches is "off" is because you assume that you have some idea of a range of racial breakdown that would be reasonable if there is no racism. I am just arguing that I don't think that's a warranted assumption, any more than it would be to assume that 1-3 NFL head coaches should be asian because they are 5.7% of the population.
Let's see how many think this is racist (it's isn't, just factual). The Wonderlic test has been around for decades, and has been used across many industries and all positions, top-to-bottom. It is a mental aptitude test meant to help employers evaluate whether or not a candidate is likely to be successful or not at their position, and how likely they might be able to grow into higher positions, etc.
The NFL has just stopped using this test because it has been accused of being "racist", not because the questions are somehow designed to favor any race over another, but because the results show the average scores of white draft picks vs black are 27.7 vs 19.7 out of a total possible score of 50.
I'll quickly add here this is for football players scores only. I am no way suggesting this proves any mental superiority/inferiority because of race. I don't believe anyone is born genetically superior/inferior based on race, rather I think it is environmental, somewhat genetic (were one or both parents particularly intelligent?) sometimes cultural (as in whether school attendance & even education is considered a good thing or bad thing), and very often the sad state of public school choices available to low-income, minority communities. I also believe there is plenty of proof the breakdown of the black family unit has caused massive damage.
I bring it up here because, though I do believe the Wonderlic scores in the NFL were quite possibly used inappropriately to justify salary discrepancies that hurt black players more than white beyond what the "job" required...it does appear to show a marked difference in average intelligence of football players. This should not be surprising when one considers a large percentage of low-income minority children grow up in an environment where professional sports is viewed as the most likely option to escape poverty.
So, if it is a fact that on average black football players do score significantly lower on the Wonderlic, though that doesn't seem in general to make much difference in the success/failure of the players, would it not be likely to make a difference for an NFL HC...one of only 32 positions available at any given time, and not at all requiring premium athletic skills?
.
For some perspective, the average Wonderlic score for a janitor is 14...for a security guard is 17, a receptionist, clerical worker or cashier is 21. A teacher is 27 ( and isn't a lot of coaching "teaching"?), an executive is 28, engineer 29 & a chemist 31.
All this to suggest, while there are black players who score highly and white players who score very low, the averages matter when one uses percentage of an entire population (in this case total black NFL players vs white) as a way of suggesting racism is at play here. The only way to make a fair analysis, IMO is to narrow the field of candidates by aptitude test results (regardless of race), then one still must consider other, previously-mentioned factors, notably coaching experience. Would most here not assume a certain minimum level of mental aptitude is likely needed to be a successful NFL HC?
Mstateglfr asks, "In a league where 70% of players are black, are there really still not enough ex-players at the college and pro level to warrant more than 1 to 3 black head coaches?" A better question might be, "Of all the players who scored above a 22 (or whatever baseline is reasonable) on the Wonderlic, is a suggestion of racism remotely plausible based on the percentage of qualified candidates?"
The NFL has just stopped using this test because it has been accused of being "racist", not because the questions are somehow designed to favor any race over another, but because the results show the average scores of white draft picks vs black are 27.7 vs 19.7 out of a total possible score of 50.
I'll quickly add here this is for football players scores only. I am no way suggesting this proves any mental superiority/inferiority because of race. I don't believe anyone is born genetically superior/inferior based on race, rather I think it is environmental, somewhat genetic (were one or both parents particularly intelligent?) sometimes cultural (as in whether school attendance & even education is considered a good thing or bad thing), and very often the sad state of public school choices available to low-income, minority communities. I also believe there is plenty of proof the breakdown of the black family unit has caused massive damage.
I bring it up here because, though I do believe the Wonderlic scores in the NFL were quite possibly used inappropriately to justify salary discrepancies that hurt black players more than white beyond what the "job" required...it does appear to show a marked difference in average intelligence of football players. This should not be surprising when one considers a large percentage of low-income minority children grow up in an environment where professional sports is viewed as the most likely option to escape poverty.
So, if it is a fact that on average black football players do score significantly lower on the Wonderlic, though that doesn't seem in general to make much difference in the success/failure of the players, would it not be likely to make a difference for an NFL HC...one of only 32 positions available at any given time, and not at all requiring premium athletic skills?
.
For some perspective, the average Wonderlic score for a janitor is 14...for a security guard is 17, a receptionist, clerical worker or cashier is 21. A teacher is 27 ( and isn't a lot of coaching "teaching"?), an executive is 28, engineer 29 & a chemist 31.
All this to suggest, while there are black players who score highly and white players who score very low, the averages matter when one uses percentage of an entire population (in this case total black NFL players vs white) as a way of suggesting racism is at play here. The only way to make a fair analysis, IMO is to narrow the field of candidates by aptitude test results (regardless of race), then one still must consider other, previously-mentioned factors, notably coaching experience. Would most here not assume a certain minimum level of mental aptitude is likely needed to be a successful NFL HC?
Mstateglfr asks, "In a league where 70% of players are black, are there really still not enough ex-players at the college and pro level to warrant more than 1 to 3 black head coaches?" A better question might be, "Of all the players who scored above a 22 (or whatever baseline is reasonable) on the Wonderlic, is a suggestion of racism remotely plausible based on the percentage of qualified candidates?"
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In a country with 14% black Americans, are there really still not enough white players to balance out the league?
Sure there are but owners pick the players they think give them the best shot of winning.
Do you somehow think they just decide opposite on coaches?
Do you think the dolphins or giants or whoever thought Flores was a no brainer but 17 if he’s black. Really? Is that what you think?
I can tell you what most of them think now. 17 this ******* who whined like a ***** bc he didn’t get hired bc he was black.
He was so mad abt not being hired bc he was black that he went out and hired some crappy white lawyers instead of black ones.
WE ALL KNOW THERE ARE GREAT BLACK LAWYERS SO WHY DID HE HIRE THE MEAN *** WHITE FOLK?
Sure there are but owners pick the players they think give them the best shot of winning.
Do you somehow think they just decide opposite on coaches?
Do you think the dolphins or giants or whoever thought Flores was a no brainer but 17 if he’s black. Really? Is that what you think?
I can tell you what most of them think now. 17 this ******* who whined like a ***** bc he didn’t get hired bc he was black.
He was so mad abt not being hired bc he was black that he went out and hired some crappy white lawyers instead of black ones.
WE ALL KNOW THERE ARE GREAT BLACK LAWYERS SO WHY DID HE HIRE THE MEAN *** WHITE FOLK?
Is Jason whitlocks comment worthy of discussion?
Or does “noted” suffice.
Bc let me let you in on a secret, Whitlock’s comment if discussed enough by the RIGHT people would solve a lot of problems Libs ***** abt.
But we don’t ever discuss that bc it’s RACIST.
And there are lots of black people who agree with that sentiment.
Or does “noted” suffice.
Bc let me let you in on a secret, Whitlock’s comment if discussed enough by the RIGHT people would solve a lot of problems Libs ***** abt.
But we don’t ever discuss that bc it’s RACIST.
And there are lots of black people who agree with that sentiment.
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How many black athletes that don’t make the nfl go on to finish college and start out immediately coaching?
That crushes a big pool of candidates that are black:
1. Either they played pro ball for a while putting them behind
2. They finished college but didn’t get into coaching or took several years to do it.
3. They didn’t finish college.
You don’t have to like this but it’s a statistical fact that a black athlete is way less likely to graduate than a white one.
That crushes a big pool of candidates that are black:
1. Either they played pro ball for a while putting them behind
2. They finished college but didn’t get into coaching or took several years to do it.
3. They didn’t finish college.
You don’t have to like this but it’s a statistical fact that a black athlete is way less likely to graduate than a white one.
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So I'm linking an article that discusses some of the issues surrounding minority candidates and minority hiring.
Personally I think the Rooney Rule, while well intentioned, is trash. It was good in theory but not in execution. The rule has been tweaked since its inception in 2003 and according to this article, teams receive two 3rd round future picks by hiring a minority candidate for head coach.
What I did find interesting was that on average since 2011, 18% of NFL head coaches were minorities. In 2017 and 2018, 25% of NFL head coaches were minorities.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/03/1075...offensive and defensive coordinator positions.
I don't know the answer but as I posted earlier, there are currently 7 minority GMs that have the ability to hire minority candidates and to date they have predominantly chosen the white guy.
Personally I think the Rooney Rule, while well intentioned, is trash. It was good in theory but not in execution. The rule has been tweaked since its inception in 2003 and according to this article, teams receive two 3rd round future picks by hiring a minority candidate for head coach.
What I did find interesting was that on average since 2011, 18% of NFL head coaches were minorities. In 2017 and 2018, 25% of NFL head coaches were minorities.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/03/1075...offensive and defensive coordinator positions.
I don't know the answer but as I posted earlier, there are currently 7 minority GMs that have the ability to hire minority candidates and to date they have predominantly chosen the white guy.
Some of us don’t view it out of whack or how it should be.
Some of us view it simply for what it is.
Owners are going to hire the best coaches, GMs and players. They want to win so naturally they are gonna do what they fill gives them the best shot.
Are there people who still exist in this country who would sacrifice what is best for them over race? Sure but I bet it’s way more likely on one side of the color spectrum than on the other.
Some of us view it simply for what it is.
Owners are going to hire the best coaches, GMs and players. They want to win so naturally they are gonna do what they fill gives them the best shot.
Are there people who still exist in this country who would sacrifice what is best for them over race? Sure but I bet it’s way more likely on one side of the color spectrum than on the other.
You accused others on this board
Of being unable to consider other view points and have a thoughtful discussion. And then when presented by another view point from a black man, you avoid the discussion because you aren’t willing to look at something you’ve already made your mind up about from another point of view. Why do you do that?
Of being unable to consider other view points and have a thoughtful discussion. And then when presented by another view point from a black man, you avoid the discussion because you aren’t willing to look at something you’ve already made your mind up about from another point of view. Why do you do that?
The optics are bad for the NFL, but what team is going to want to take a risk on him? Based on his trajectory at the dolphins, I think he was a lock to get another job and quickly. I think a lot of teams are going to want to kick the tires, but he is off the rails right now. Letting his lawyers put out a statement that is dismissive and somewhat insulting of another black head coach? I tend to agree with you that there's going to be a lot of pressure to hire him and a lot of interest based on his on field results, but at some point he's got to put down the shovel and stop digging. I don't think he's going to be able to do it.
I am not obligated to engage with every poster here and every comment they make.
I think it is very accurate to say that I am willing to offer up opinions that are unpopular to the majority here and am comfortable with discussion. So if I dont do that, it is likely because I dont have time(actually working, its rare) or because I dont care to engage with the poster.
I have also been very willing to discuss and consider other views thru 1on1 discussion with posters who seem to genuinely want to discuss the subject.
https://www.jbhe.com/2016/11/explaining-the-lack-of-black-head-coaches-in-college-football/ This ties into Whitlock's comment, though it is less inflammatory. There are fewer black GAs and it appears many instead make their way up the coaching ladder by starting out at high schools, jucos, etc.
I don't know that this is applicable to those GMs, but of the minority hiring managers I've known, some have had no concern over appearances and have hired mostly or all minorities. But others have been very concerned about the perception that they will play favorites and are assiduous about not doing anything that looks like favoritism and I think that sometimes works against minority candidates when they are up against a non-minority with a very similar resume.
I’d argue that Flores is more talented than Lovie Smith for sure. But Flores is showing the whole world what at least part of the problem was at Miami. He’s essentially throwing a hissy fit because he missed out on jobs. But he’s got real issues (outside of suing the NFL) that are going to keep him from getting a job. First of all, he was part of the decision to draft Tua over Herbert. Secondly, he has no ability to be flexible to work with people. You talk about him not having talent at Miami. I’d disagree with that. There is a pretty good list of players he ran off because he couldn’t get along with them. Eric Flowers, Minkah Fitzpatrick, Kyle van noy, Shaq Lawson, Kenny stills… I’m sure I’m missing some. All of those guys are NFL caliber starters that other coaches have managed to work with just fine. Lastly, Flo is apparently such a dick to work for he can’t hire assistant coaches, especially on the offensive side of the ball.
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