OT: Flores is salty

Drebin

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Aug 22, 2012
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And now we are at the point where comments are not genuine and are instead dismissive of the concern and issue as a whole. I knew it would get to this point, but hoped it would be delayed a bit.

He makes a good point. There's a rule in place that every team has to at least interview a black candidate when a coaching position is open, called "The Rooney Rule."

Why isn't there a "Sehorn Rule" that requires every team to invite a white cornerback to camp? It would seem to me that there's inequity there with regards to white football players.

Oh, what's that? Only the best players make the team and play those positions? You don't say. It's probably true for coaches too.
 

Drebin

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Aug 22, 2012
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Let's see how many think this is racist (it's isn't, just factual). The Wonderlic test has been around for decades, and has been used across many industries and all positions, top-to-bottom. It is a mental aptitude test meant to help employers evaluate whether or not a candidate is likely to be successful or not at their position, and how likely they might be able to grow into higher positions, etc.

The NFL has just stopped using this test because it has been accused of being "racist", not because the questions are somehow designed to favor any race over another, but because the results show the average scores of white draft picks vs black are 27.7 vs 19.7 out of a total possible score of 50.

I'll quickly add here this is for football players scores only. I am no way suggesting this proves any mental superiority/inferiority because of race. I don't believe anyone is born genetically superior/inferior based on race, rather I think it is environmental, somewhat genetic (were one or both parents particularly intelligent?) sometimes cultural (as in whether school attendance & even education is considered a good thing or bad thing), and very often the sad state of public school choices available to low-income, minority communities. I also believe there is plenty of proof the breakdown of the black family unit has caused massive damage.

I bring it up here because, though I do believe the Wonderlic scores in the NFL were quite possibly used inappropriately to justify salary discrepancies that hurt black players more than white beyond what the "job" required...it does appear to show a marked difference in average intelligence of football players. This should not be surprising when one considers a large percentage of low-income minority children grow up in an environment where professional sports is viewed as the most likely option to escape poverty.

So, if it is a fact that on average black football players do score significantly lower on the Wonderlic, though that doesn't seem in general to make much difference in the success/failure of the players, would it not be likely to make a difference for an NFL HC...one of only 32 positions available at any given time, and not at all requiring premium athletic skills?
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For some perspective, the average Wonderlic score for a janitor is 14...for a security guard is 17, a receptionist, clerical worker or cashier is 21. A teacher is 27 ( and isn't a lot of coaching "teaching"?), an executive is 28, engineer 29 & a chemist 31.

All this to suggest, while there are black players who score highly and white players who score very low, the averages matter when one uses percentage of an entire population (in this case total black NFL players vs white) as a way of suggesting racism is at play here. The only way to make a fair analysis, IMO is to narrow the field of candidates by aptitude test results (regardless of race), then one still must consider other, previously-mentioned factors, notably coaching experience. Would most here not assume a certain minimum level of mental aptitude is likely needed to be a successful NFL HC?

Mstateglfr asks, "In a league where 70% of players are black, are there really still not enough ex-players at the college and pro level to warrant more than 1 to 3 black head coaches?" A better question might be, "Of all the players who scored above a 22 (or whatever baseline is reasonable) on the Wonderlic, is a suggestion of racism remotely plausible based on the percentage of qualified candidates?"

This is an inconvenient truth.
 
Aug 22, 2012
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And now we are at the point where comments are not genuine and are instead dismissive of the concern and issue as a whole. I knew it would get to this point, but hoped it would be delayed a bit.

You're calling it disingenuous because you want to selectively apply a principle (a hallmark of leftist thought).

But if we're gonna have racial quotas in one area, we need to apply them everywhere.

Why stop there? 90%+ of prison inmates are men despite only comprising 50% of the population.

The only possible explanation is law enforcement and the courts are systemically sexist.
 

mstateglfr

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Oh, what's that? Only the best players make the team and play those positions? You don't say. It's probably true for coaches too.

I think that anyone who follows team sports can point to coaches who they view as underperforming retreads. Each offseason(and inseason too) of every sport is full of coaches being hired that are viewed as underwhelming and given a 3rd or even 4th chance.
Are you saying those really are the best in the industry?
 

SteelCurtain74

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I don't know that this is applicable to those GMs, but of the minority hiring managers I've known, some have had no concern over appearances and have hired mostly or all minorities. But others have been very concerned about the perception that they will play favorites and are assiduous about not doing anything that looks like favoritism and I think that sometimes works against minority candidates when they are up against a non-minority with a very similar resume.

I get it and that is definitely plausible. It's also plausible there are too many heavy-handed owners where the GM is not much more than a figurehead (see Jerry Jones).

My point was it would seem that minority candidates would be more inclined to "put their best foot forward" if it was a minority doing the hiring as opposed to a white guy or woman. I say that based on Eric Bienemy's comments in the article where he said that he knew pretty quickly in interviews which teams were genuinely interested and those just checking a box.

The Steelers are currently interviewing Louis Riddick for their GM position and just promoted Teryl Austin for the DC position. I for one hope Riddick gets the job because I think he would be a great addition.
 

mstateglfr

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You're calling it disingenuous because you want to selectively apply a principle (a hallmark of leftist thought).

But if we're gonna have racial quotas in one area, we need to apply them everywhere.

Why stop there? 90%+ of prison inmates are men despite only comprising 50% of the population.

The only possible explanation is law enforcement and the courts are systemically sexist.

Its disingenuous because you are claiming there is racial discrimination against white cornerbacks. That isnt something that has been claimed, other than by you to try and play gotcha. If it is an actual issue, then yes it should be addressed. If its just you playing games, then it should be ignored as trolling for a moment to play gotcha.

To be clear, I do not think there should be a racial quota for head coaches. I have been clear about that thru this thread and have specifically said I dont know what number of black head coaches would be 'right' and think I have said I dont think there is a 'right' number.
I WOULD NOT SUPPORT A RACIAL QUOTA.
It is unfortunate that you think this discussion has an end goal of a reaching a racial quota. Some may want one, but they are in the minority(hey-oh!). The end goal is that people should have genuine opportunity to interview for open positions. This will always be a challenge in sports since owners/GMs/ADs typically need to have a plan in place before letting the current coach go. They have names in mind that they get from connections within the sport and that currently reduces the pool of legitimate applicants.
 
Aug 22, 2012
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Its disingenuous because you are claiming there is racial discrimination against white cornerbacks. That isnt something that has been claimed, other than by you to try and play gotcha. If it is an actual issue, then yes it should be addressed. If its just you playing games, then it should be ignored as trolling for a moment to play gotcha.

To be clear, I do not think there should be a racial quota for head coaches. I have been clear about that thru this thread and have specifically said I dont know what number of black head coaches would be 'right' and think I have said I dont think there is a 'right' number.
I WOULD NOT SUPPORT A RACIAL QUOTA.
It is unfortunate that you think this discussion has an end goal of a reaching a racial quota. Some may want one, but they are in the minority(hey-oh!). The end goal is that people should have genuine opportunity to interview for open positions. This will always be a challenge in sports since owners/GMs/ADs typically need to have a plan in place before letting the current coach go. They have names in mind that they get from connections within the sport and that currently reduces the pool of legitimate applicants.

I'm taking your principle (70% of the players are black but only 1-3 HC's are, this is problematic) and applying it somewhere else. If you don't like it, maybe change your principle.
 

Drebin

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Aug 22, 2012
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I think that anyone who follows team sports can point to coaches who they view as underperforming retreads. Each offseason(and inseason too) of every sport is full of coaches being hired that are viewed as underwhelming and given a 3rd or even 4th chance.
Are you saying those really are the best in the industry?

I'm not the one making those decisions because I'm not qualified to make them. I don't know what specific skills are required in addition to basic X's and O's, and I didn't participate in any of those interviews. Calling a guy a "retread" that you know nothing about is very much on brand for you, though.
 

mstateglfr

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I'm taking your principle (70% of the players are black but only 1-3 HC's are, this is problematic) and applying it somewhere else. If you don't like it, maybe change your principle.

I get what you are doing, but you are ignoring key factors that make your gotcha argument largely worthless. And instead of recognizing/accepting those key factors, you are pushing thru and expecting this to be some basic cut and dry discussion when it isnt.
Having legitimately fair and equal opportunities at employment is important.

Some(not all) key factors you are ignoring- motivation, salary cap, known hiring practices that differ between players and staff in recent decades, pool of applicants for respective job/position, and more.
If 4% of architects are minority females, then arcitecture firms will struggle to find applicants to increase their diversity since the pool of applicants is small. That isnt racism on the part of the firms.
But this isnt what is happening at the coaching level.

And again- I do not support quotas and have specifically stated I dont think there is some exact 'right' number when it comes to black head coaches. Try to keep that in mind.

If you feel white cornerbacks arent getting a fair opportunity, make it widely known and push for change. Get on Twitter, get on radio call in shows, write the NFL, write to columnists, etc. Go for it. If you dont actually believe what you are saying, then you are just playing gotcha and ignoring key differences between the examples.
 

mstateglfr

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I'm not the one making those decisions because I'm not qualified to make them. I don't know what specific skills are required in addition to basic X's and O's, and I didn't participate in any of those interviews. Calling a guy a "retread" that you know nothing about is very much on brand for you, though.

Hang on, you have never seen a coaching hire and viewed it as a retread? Really? Come the 17 on.
Anyone who spends as much time on a sports message board as you do has opinions on coaching hires. Dont pull this 'I dont have information and am not qualified to opine' ********. You have commented on here about coaching hires.
The idea that coaches who have been fired and hired many times are retreads is not some controversial or radical idea. Its a common term for a reason.
 

Drebin

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Aug 22, 2012
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Hang on, you have never seen a coaching hire and viewed it as a retread? Really? Come the 17 on.
Anyone who spends as much time on a sports message board as you do has opinions on coaching hires. Dont pull this 'I dont have information and am not qualified to opine' ********. You have commented on here about coaching hires.
The idea that coaches who have been fired and hired many times are retreads is not some controversial or radical idea. Its a common term for a reason.

I have my own opinions, sure. It doesn't mean I'm right. I think Lovie Smith is a retread. But I wasn't part of the hiring decision, and I don't know what specific boxes those owners wanted checked in the interview process, so my opinion is uninformed. You should know a thing or two about uninformed opinions.
 

mstateglfr

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I have my own opinions, sure. It doesn't mean I'm right. I think Lovie Smith is a retread. But I wasn't part of the hiring decision, and I don't know what specific boxes those owners wanted checked in the interview process, so my opinion is uninformed. You should know a thing or two about uninformed opinions.

Holy ****- so you just did what you ripped on me for doing. You criticized me for calling him a retread because I dont know the details of the interviews and what the front office was looking for. You also think he is a retread, even thjough you dont know what the front office was looking for.
What is the difference between what I posted and what you posted(you agree with me)? Is it that I said what I think versus you didnt say what you think? Thats quite the distinction without a difference since we think the same thing. This is a message board- if posts were only made by people in the know with access to behind the scenes, there would be almost no activity since Jack At Shelter last posted.
You voice opinions all the time about **** that has behind the scenes activity...yet this is different?
 

Drebin

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Aug 22, 2012
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Holy ****- so you just did what you ripped on me for doing. You criticized me for calling him a retread because I dont know the details of the interviews and what the front office was looking for. You also think he is a retread, even thjough you dont know what the front office was looking for.
What is the difference between what I posted and what you posted(you agree with me)? Is it that I said what I think versus you didnt say what you think? Thats quite the distinction without a difference since we think the same thing. This is a message board- if posts were only made by people in the know with access to behind the scenes, there would be almost no activity since Jack At Shelter last posted.
You voice opinions all the time about **** that has behind the scenes activity...yet this is different?

The difference here is that I'm being honest. You're using your uninformed opinions to jump to a conclusion that there's a racism problem in the NFL to hire coaches. I'm honest enough to admit that sometimes things don't make sense but I don't have all the information. There are other topics where I'm more informed and will speak more definitively about my opinion. You speak definitively about all your opinions, most of which you are uninformed about, and end up beclowning yourself. This is one of those times.

Hey, I do it sometimes, too. But the difference is I can admit it.
 
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Uncle Ruckus

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And now we are at the point where comments are not genuine and are instead dismissive of the concern and issue as a whole. I knew it would get to this point, but hoped it would be delayed a bit.
Do you really think people are intentionally not hiring head coaches because of the color of their skin?
 

mstateglfr

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Feb 24, 2008
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The difference here is that I'm being honest. You're using your uninformed opinions to jump to a conclusion that there's a racism problem in the NFL to hire coaches. I'm honest enough to admit that sometimes things don't make sense but I don't have all the information. There are other topics where I'm more informed and will speak more definitively about my opinion. You speak definitively about all your opinions, most of which you are uninformed about, and end up beclowning yourself. This is one of those times.

Hey, I do it sometimes, too. But the difference is I can admit it.

Do I think there is a racism problem in the NFL for hiring coaches?
Well on one hand, Gruden's emails show there certainly seems to still be a bit of racism(and other isms) going on in front offices. Sure, argue that its a single case and not happening elsewhere.
But really, no I dont think it is outright racism in the way that you mean. It probably isnt active racism like what was used to oppress blacks for so many decades after emancipation. Its probably more passive in that you go with people who you know better or with people that are recommended by those you trust, and those who you know better and you trust are white.
If you ask the person(s) making the hiring decision, they would probably say 'No I am not racist- look at all the minorities on the most recent staff' or something like that. And they very well may be truthful in saying that.

It is most likely an issue of not allowing actual legitimate opportunities to minority coaches. <--I said that probably in the first page.



This issue hits home for me because I have been told I am not doing enough to ensure a youth mentorship program I help run has enough racial minorities as mentors. I agree it doesnt, but what the 17 am I supposed to do?...its not like we are turning away potential volunteers that are racial/cultural minorities. But we dont do a good enough job of actively recruiting and looking for more diversity(to better match the youth demographics). I look forward to the time when I suddenly figure out how to better recruit targeted groups. Until then, we will continue to get feedback that we arent doing enough to ensure diversity. It sucks to see, but it also isnt wrong.


Also, 17 you for claiming I am being dishonest.
 

Drebin

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Aug 22, 2012
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This issue hits home for me because I have been told I am not doing enough to ensure a youth mentorship program I help run has enough racial minorities as mentors. I agree it doesnt, but what the 17 am I supposed to do?...its not like we are turning away potential volunteers that are racial/cultural minorities. But we dont do a good enough job of actively recruiting and looking for more diversity(to better match the youth demographics). I look forward to the time when I suddenly figure out how to better recruit targeted groups. Until then, we will continue to get feedback that we arent doing enough to ensure diversity. It sucks to see, but it also isnt wrong.


Also, 17 you for claiming I am being dishonest.

As to the first part, you shouldn't care. When we stop labeling people by race, we'll stop having these issues. THAT'S what MLK wanted. But we can't have that today. We have to know exactly how many black coaches there are and why that's an atrocity. Perhaps I will live to see the day that we can stop talking about black coaches and white coaches and just talk about coaches. Same thing for supreme court justices, or actors, or anything else. True equality is race agnostic. Equity is the new progressive dog whistle....and it's disgusting and insulting to people of all races who have worked hard to earn their place.

As to your last sentence, I'm not claiming it. You reveal that yourself almost daily around here. You might as well have a tattoo on your forehead claiming it. I'm sorry that triggered you, but be a better human being and you won't have to worry about it.
 

mstateglfr

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Feb 24, 2008
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We can't move away from race categorization because people continue to treat groups differently based on skin color. Policies continue to not only exist, but be created that clearly target specific groups and when you look at the groups...their skin color is a common denominator.

I am curious to see how all this looks in 25 years. Between the Hispanic/Latinx populations growing and the continued acceptance of interracial relationships, will all this be largely moot and we all get along? Or will there be even more division based off the many subtle shades of skin color?


It's exhausting, really. Cronyism will certainly still exist, that I am comfortable predicting.
 

Drebin

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Aug 22, 2012
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We can't move away from race categorization because people continue to treat groups differently based on skin color. Policies continue to not only exist, but be created that clearly target specific groups and when you look at the groups...their skin color is a common denominator.

I am curious to see how all this looks in 25 years. Between the Hispanic/Latinx populations growing and the continued acceptance of interracial relationships, will all this be largely moot and we all get along? Or will there be even more division based off the many subtle shades of skin color?


It's exhausting, really. Cronyism will certainly still exist, that I am comfortable predicting.

Wrong. Race characterization will always exist because there's always a demographic that wants to:

a) leverage it to get something they otherwise aren't qualified for,
b) use it as a means for victimhood or to dodge accountability, or
c) label people they can pander to to win votes

In all three scenarios, it's usually being done from the left. I'll let you explain that one. Oh yeah, you won't, because you're dishonest.
 
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