OT: global stability seems to be wobbling a bit

[L4Dawg]

Since, according to you, appeasement won't work, the only logical alternative is war to force Russia out of Ukraine.

A few questions:
-Should the US be involved in this war?
-If so, how many American troops dying in Ukraine is acceptable?
-If not, how many NATO troops dying defending Ukraine is acceptable? (Reminder: they're not part of NATO)
-Since war is the only option to stop the next Hitler, have you enlisted to defend Ukraine?
-Are you OK with your sons/daughters dying to defend Ukraine?

You are arguing against something I never said.


It's not an either/or thing. You make it as hard as you possibly can on Russia without being directly involved. As long as the Ukrainians are willing to fight, give them the stuff to do it, and let them DO it. The longer they stay in the game the longer we can stay out. Give the Russians too much of a case of indigestion and we might not ever have to get in it at all. Withdrawing our support almost certainly means that Putin takes all of Ukraine, now or a little bit down the road. We WILL be involved in the next step, and there WILL be a next step if Ukraine falls too easily. Putin has his Mein Kampf out there.

 

[BoDawg.sixpack]

It was just an incredibly shortsighted conflict when you consider the demographic shifts for both countries. Ukraine's population started declining years ago because of the birth rate and Russia is also declining although their decline is a little less pronounced. But at the end of the day you've got a bunch of dead bodies from some of the most viable males in either country and they're not going to be replaced unless somehow there's a massive immigration effort to either country and that's of course very unlikely.

 

[BulldawgFan]

You are arguing against something I never said.


It's not an either/or thing. You make it as hard as you possibly can on Russia without being directly involved. As long as the Ukrainians are willing to fight, give them the stuff to do it, and let them DO it. The longer they stay in the game the longer we can stay out. Give the Russians too much of a case of indigestion and we might not ever have to get in it at all. Withdrawing our support almost certainly means that Putin takes all of Ukraine, now or a little bit down the road. We WILL be involved in the next step, and there WILL be a next step if Ukraine falls too easily. Putin has his Mein Kampf out there.

We've attempted to make it hard on them with Biden's 2 rounds of sanctions. They weren't effective. If anything they made Russia's economy stronger.

The Ukrainians are willing to fight and we've given them the stuff to do it. It's just not effective enough.

The Biden admin knew before Russia invaded that they were amassing troops on the Ukrainian border. Did they think Russia was just doing drills? Putin knew our administration was asleep at the wheel and he was right. We did nothing, either through incompetence or arrogance I'm not sure, but we could have. An ounce of prevention would have been worth the pound of cure we're now trying to pay.

The only solution left that doesn't involve a larger war involving US troops is a compromise of some sort. Russia will take some areas of Ukraine. That's a fact. A large portion of eastern Ukraine wants that any way. It's not right or fair for Russia to keep it, but it's the reality. History teaches us that not everyone plays by the same set of rules.

Russia will never just willingly hand it back over after all they've invested in terms of money and lives. The only way Russia is removed from Ukraine is by an overwhelming show of force from the US and NATO. That will mean a large ugly ground war, lots of deaths, and the possible escalation of the conflict into WW3. Is that price worth it?

 

[L4Dawg]

We've attempted to make it hard on them with Biden's 2 rounds of sanctions. They weren't effective. If anything they made Russia's economy stronger.

The Ukrainians are willing to fight and we've given them the stuff to do it. It's just not effective enough.

The Biden admin knew before Russia invaded that they were amassing troops on the Ukrainian border. Did they think Russia was just doing drills? Putin knew our administration was asleep at the wheel and he was right. We did nothing, either through incompetence or arrogance I'm not sure, but we could have. An ounce of prevention would have been worth the pound of cure we're now trying to pay.

The only solution left that doesn't involve a larger war involving US troops is a compromise of some sort. Russia will take some areas of Ukraine. That's a fact. A large portion of eastern Ukraine wants that any way. It's not right or fair for Russia to keep it, but it's the reality. History teaches us that not everyone plays by the same set of rules.

Russia will never just willingly hand it back over after all they've invested in terms of money and lives. The only way Russia is removed from Ukraine is by an overwhelming show of force from the US and NATO. That will mean a large ugly ground war, lots of deaths, and the possible escalation of the conflict into WW3. Is that price worth it?

You do know that things get expended, and blown up, in war, RIGHT? You can't just give them a bunch of stuff and that's it. Sanctions are a pipe dream.

I'm no fan of Biden but they warned everyone, VERY publicly, that Russia was about to invade. What exactly did you want us to do? I suggest you take a look at the Munich Agreement of 1938, and how that worked with an aggressive dictator hell bent on restoring his country to greatness. The circumstances now are almost identical. I'm not concerned about fairness. I'm concerned about trying to keep American kids out of it. Give Putin what he wants, and we will be in it for sure down the road. As long as the Ukrainians want to fight you give them the means to do it.

 

[BulldawgFan]

You do know that things get expended, and blown up, in war, RIGHT? You can't just give them a bunch of stuff and that's it. Sanctions are a pipe dream.

I'm no fan of Biden but they warned everyone, VERY publicly, that Russia was about to invade. What exactly did you want us to do? I suggest you take a look at the Munich Agreement of 1938, and how that worked with an aggressive dictator hell bent on restoring his country to greatness. The circumstances now are almost identical. I'm not concerned about fairness. I'm concerned about trying to keep American kids out of it. Give Putin what he wants, and we will be in it for sure down the road. As long as the Ukrainians want to fight you give them the means to do it.

I think you and I are on the same page more than I initially thought. I agree with most, if not all, of what you're saying here - I think we both want no American troops dying over there.

And I am pretty well-read history wise, particularly in regards to WW1 - WW2 era (I also scored 19 on the English section of the ACT).

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I'm kind of curious as to whether this is anything other than Russia having money but needing warm bodies and North Korea having warm bodies but needing money.

I'm not sure Kim Jong Un has really decided that Russia winning Ukrain is strategically important to Russia or that countering the West is strategically important enough to spend blood on.

had not thought about that angle. N Korea literally selling the lives of its people would not surprise me. I would be a little surprised that Russia has a lot of cash to throw around, but perhaps there's a service in kind agreement...

 

[johnson86-1]

had not thought about that angle. N Korea literally selling the lives of its people would not surprise me. I would be a little surprised that Russia has a lot of cash to throw around, but perhaps there's a service in kind agreement...

I think Russia's natural resources have it in an okayish position right now financially. The sanctions originally hammered them, but now trade has adjusted and they are just selling the same amount as before to countries willing to ignore the sanctions at a slight discount. Not sure how well they are maintaining capacity without easy access to parts and equipment made by companies in countries that comply with the sanctions, but they must have some work around.

I'm sure it's not what people would consider a healthy economy, but they are obviously willing to prioritize the war effort, and I think paying North Korea or providing them oil and gas or whatever is probably within their means to continue indefinitely.

 

[GloryDawg]

Again, they won't care about any of that. You are assigning Western motives to them. They don't really share those motives.

You don't have to be from Alabama to know if you launch one missile you will have a 100 coming back at you.

 

[mstateglfr]

had not thought about that angle. N Korea literally selling the lives of its people would not surprise me. I would be a little surprised that Russia has a lot of cash to throw around, but perhaps there's a service in kind agreement...

One of the guys who helped set up Russian sanctions nearly 3 years ago was on 60min a few weeks ago. He straight up said what he predicted at the start of this has not come true. Russia has a 'dark fleet' of ships that have delivered oil to all sorts of locations around the world. Trade with friendly countries has also helped.

So its not great there, and worse than without sanctions, but not close to as crippling as first hoped.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

One of the guys who helped set up Russian sanctions nearly 3 years ago was on 60min a few weeks ago. He straight up said what he predicted at the start of this has not come true. Russia has a 'dark fleet' of ships that have delivered oil to all sorts of locations around the world. Trade with friendly countries has also helped.

So its not great there, and worse than without sanctions, but not close to as crippling as first hoped.

It’s just like when Trump started the trade war with China and they tariffed soybeans. All of a sudden there were a lot of soybeans being sold to other random nations when you knew ultimately they were ending up in China.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

It was just an incredibly shortsighted conflict when you consider the demographic shifts for both countries. Ukraine's population started declining years ago because of the birth rate and Russia is also declining although their decline is a little less pronounced. But at the end of the day you've got a bunch of dead bodies from some of the most viable males in either country and they're not going to be replaced unless somehow there's a massive immigration effort to either country and that's of course very unlikely.

Ukraine has tried to make an effort to not put their 18-30 year old men on the front lines just because of this.

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

With the inclusion of the Baltic States and Poland into NATO, Russia is at a tremendous disadvantage strategically.
Moscow cannot afford to defend their entire border with Ukraine. Even an incursion to claim territory to the Dnipro leaves them too exposed on the European plain.
With Ukraine refusing to join the CSTO, attempting to remain neutral and perhaps one day joining NATO is a huge problem. Moscow still views NATO as a hostile group of nations.
They believe they need all of Ukraine and Moldova to counterbalance the NATO threat in their view. They also need Georgia (the country). After manipulating their election process last month, I'd say they've got a good shot there of transforming Georgia to a more of a Belarus-style satellite.
And, of course, of equal importance is the shale gas reserves and shale oil potential within the current territory of Ukraine. Russia doesn't need Ukraine intruding on their energy export market.

 

[L4Dawg]

Ukraine has tried to make an effort to not put their 18-30 year old men on the front lines just because of this.

Yea they have.

 

[johnson86-1]

...
With Ukraine refusing to join the CSTO, attempting to remain neutral and perhaps one day joining NATO is a huge problem. Moscow still views NATO as a hostile group of nations.
They believe they need all of Ukraine and Moldova to counterbalance the NATO threat in their view. They also need Georgia (the country). After manipulating their election process last month, I'd say they've got a good shot there of transforming Georgia to a more of a Belarus-style satellite.
And, of course, of equal importance is the shale gas reserves and shale oil potential within the current territory of Ukraine. Russia doesn't need Ukraine intruding on their energy export market.

Glad you clarified. You'd assume they would want UGA as Georgia the Country has zero SEC titles so it's not clear what they bring to the table. But just another example of not being able to attribute western values and logic to people like Putin and the leaders of Iran.

 

[L4Dawg]

The nominee for Defense Secretary is baffling. He has no relevant experience at all. That is a dangerous nomination in such fraught times.

 

[ckDOG]

The nominee for Defense Secretary is baffling. He has no relevant experience at all. That is a dangerous nomination in such fraught times.

I thought it was a joke when I first saw it. Is Trump trying to see what he can get his Senate to agree to (loyalty test) or test the waters with recess appointments? I'm not sure even the most ardent Trump supporter can explain this one.

 

[paindonthurt17]

Russia seems to be upping the stakes recently with reports of North Korean troops now on Russian soil fighting Ukraine and this headline I saw this morning: Putin Ally Calls for Destruction of America's Critical Infrastructure

None of this seems good for global stability. Thoughts?

17ing douche

 

[paindonthurt17]

Is your whole life about who is in office? I can’t imagine how you carry enough outrage to constantly couch everything in those terms. You keep on fighting the good fight. My only current orange man concern is that his dumbass gets his team to execute the Ethics agreement that by law was due on 10/1, so they can begin to get briefed on things.

The only other time this was late was when Bush and Gore were fighting over Florida chads and it wasn’t clear who was transitioning in. Some intelligence people believe that gap in transition contributed to the botched 9/11 intelligence that allowed the attacks to happen.

You 17ing posted this bc your life revolves around it. Douche canoe.

never been a conservative republican in your life.

 

[L4Dawg]

I thought it was a joke when I first saw it. Is Trump trying to see what he can get his Senate to agree to (loyalty test) or test the waters with recess appointments? I'm not sure even the most ardent Trump supporter can explain this one.

That's the kind of appointment that loses wars.

 

[Pars]

That appointment can’t be real?

 

[L4Dawg]

That appointment can’t be real?

The Wall Street Journal is reporting it. That's a stunning appointment. It's like appointing an assistant pee wee football coach from Vermont as head coach of the Cowboys.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

17ing douche

I think you may have TDS

 

[karlchilders.sixpack]

Chance of not getting locked?
ZERO

 

[ckDOG]

The Wall Street Journal is reporting it. That's a stunning appointment. It's like appointing an assistant pee wee football coach from Vermont as head coach of the Cowboys.

Jessie Watters can be Navy Sec. His last name is wet.

 

[paindonthurt17]

I think you may have TDS

I think you are a moron

 

[dickiedawg]

With the inclusion of the Baltic States and Poland into NATO, Russia is at a tremendous disadvantage strategically.
Moscow cannot afford to defend their entire border with Ukraine. Even an incursion to claim territory to the Dnipro leaves them too exposed on the European plain.
With Ukraine refusing to join the CSTO, attempting to remain neutral and perhaps one day joining NATO is a huge problem. Moscow still views NATO as a hostile group of nations.
They believe they need all of Ukraine and Moldova to counterbalance the NATO threat in their view. They also need Georgia (the country). After manipulating their election process last month, I'd say they've got a good shot there of transforming Georgia to a more of a Belarus-style satellite.
And, of course, of equal importance is the shale gas reserves and shale oil potential within the current territory of Ukraine. Russia doesn't need Ukraine intruding on their energy export market.

This thread is about to get locked because it’s devolved into petty personal attacks. Shame because it was a good thread for a while.
This may be a stupid question, but what is keeping Ukraine, as part of a peace deal, from ceding some of the territory and immediately joining NATO? I know no one wants to lose territory, but joining NATO would put a quick stop to that.
Also, I think at one point in his first term Trump talked about withdrawing from NATO but I haven’t heard anything about that lately. Was that a serious possibility? Is it still a possibility? I don’t love the idea.

 

[johnson86-1]

The Wall Street Journal is reporting it. That's a stunning appointment. It's like appointing an assistant pee wee football coach from Vermont as head coach of the Cowboys.

I thought it was a joke when I first saw it. Is Trump trying to see what he can get his Senate to agree to (loyalty test) or test the waters with recess appointments? I'm not sure even the most ardent Trump supporter can explain this one.

He did princeton undergrad, harvard grad school, worked at Bear Sterns and did tours in Iraq and Afghanistan before leading a veteran advocacy organization.

The Secretary of Defense is supposed to be a civilian position regardless, but our military obviously has major problems with staying focused on mission readiness, so an outsider makes sense. The withdrawal from Afghanistan was still just an unbelievable cluster 17 that is so hard to explain that the charitable explanation is that the people planning it were acting against the interests of the US, and the less charitable explanation is that they really were that stupid and incompetent. I'm sure there are plenty of good options from within the Department of Defense, but I'm guessing Trump doesn't have a reliable way of identifying which ones are not part of the rot that is so prevalent in our federal agencies, and he probably isn't keen to rely on recommendation as so many recommendations he accepted last time turned out to be people that didn't really think the elected president should get to set policy if it differed from the opinions of career bureaucrats.

I don't know if Hegseth is a good option, but I get it being a hard position to fill for Trump with somebody that has directly relevant experience and also can be trusted to actually stay within their role.

 

[johnson86-1]

That's the kind of appointment that loses wars.

As opposed to the appointments we've been getting? You actually think we could have done worse with the afghanistan withdrawal?

 

[ckDOG]

He did princeton undergrad, harvard grad school, worked at Bear Sterns and did tours in Iraq and Afghanistan before leading a veteran advocacy organization.

The Secretary of Defense is supposed to be a civilian position regardless, but our military obviously has major problems with staying focused on mission readiness, so an outsider makes sense. The withdrawal from Afghanistan was still just an unbelievable cluster 17 that is so hard to explain that the charitable explanation is that the people planning it were acting against the interests of the US, and the less charitable explanation is that they really were that stupid and incompetent. I'm sure there are plenty of good options from within the Department of Defense, but I'm guessing Trump doesn't have a reliable way of identifying which ones are not part of the rot that is so prevalent in our federal agencies, and he probably isn't keen to rely on recommendation as so many recommendations he accepted last time turned out to be people that didn't really think the elected president should get to set policy if it differed from the opinions of career bureaucrats.

I don't know if Hegseth is a good option, but I get it being a hard position to fill for Trump with somebody that has directly relevant experience and also can be trusted to actually stay within their role.

He has an admirable military career but hardly the experience that would even remotely set himself up for success managing the millions in headcount and hundreds of billions (into trillions over the years) that he will be asked to managed. Granted, not a lot people are qualified for that and there's usually some gamble there but this guy is more equipped to run an org of a few hundred and not the DoD. And despite civilian role, he's still #2 in command and authority. I'd like to see someone with experience higher than Major take on that role. Again...not disparaging his career or "being a Major" - but there's a massive gap from there to #2. Massive.

Feel like this was an own the woke libs pick and is leaving basically everyone in Washington saying WTF. Every republican senate leading up to this one wouldn't consent.

 

[L4Dawg]

As opposed to the appointments we've been getting? You actually think we could have done worse with the afghanistan withdrawal?

Yes, almost certainly. He has ZERO relevant experience, NONE.

 

[L4Dawg]

He did princeton undergrad, harvard grad school, worked at Bear Sterns and did tours in Iraq and Afghanistan before leading a veteran advocacy organization.

The Secretary of Defense is supposed to be a civilian position regardless, but our military obviously has major problems with staying focused on mission readiness, so an outsider makes sense. The withdrawal from Afghanistan was still just an unbelievable cluster 17 that is so hard to explain that the charitable explanation is that the people planning it were acting against the interests of the US, and the less charitable explanation is that they really were that stupid and incompetent. I'm sure there are plenty of good options from within the Department of Defense, but I'm guessing Trump doesn't have a reliable way of identifying which ones are not part of the rot that is so prevalent in our federal agencies, and he probably isn't keen to rely on recommendation as so many recommendations he accepted last time turned out to be people that didn't really think the elected president should get to set policy if it differed from the opinions of career bureaucrats.

I don't know if Hegseth is a good option, but I get it being a hard position to fill for Trump with somebody that has directly relevant experience and also can be trusted to actually stay within their role.

I'm sure he did a great job at all of that. He has no experience at even close to the level he is being appointed to. I'm sure they have a very good floor leader in the paint shop at Toyota Mississippi. That doesn't mean he would be a good choice for CEO for Toyota as a whole. This is an INCREDIBLY stupid appointment.

 

[BoDawg.sixpack]

Ukraine has tried to make an effort to not put their 18-30 year old men on the front lines just because of this.

Maybe, maybe not. Zelensky said in Feb of 2024 only 31,000 Ukrainian troops had perished but the U.S. had estimated about 70,000 had died 6 months prior to him making that statement. So some of the talking points are tainted.

 

[thatsbaseball]

The nominee for Defense Secretary is baffling. He has no relevant experience at all. That is a dangerous nomination in such fraught times.

LOL Well as a Republican all I can say is he's a better appointment than Kriti Noem to head Homeland Security. Trump was on a nice roll until these two.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

 

[Shmuley]

LOL Well as a Republican all I can say is he's a better appointment than Kriti Noem to head Homeland Security. Trump was on a nice roll until these two.

Noem is there for the pouty lips, fake eyelashes and decent body. Homan will run that $h!+.

 

[mcdawg22]

LOL Well as a Republican all I can say is he's a better appointment than Kriti Noem to head Homeland Security. Trump was on a nice roll until these two.

As someone that is not a big Trump fan I guess I am confused how he is so terrible. Rumsfeld was a career politician.

 

[thatsbaseball]

As someone that is not a big Trump fan I guess I am confused how he is so terrible. Rumsfeld was a career politician.

I didn't mean to imply he will be "terrible" but you have to admit that going from a weekend news anchor to Secretary of Defense is an unusual career path. FWIW I read this morning that Trump went through 5 Sec's of Defense in his first term so the odds ought to be with him on making a good pick at some point. I hope this guy's a homerun hire .

 

[thatsbaseball]

Ukraine has tried to make an effort to not put their 18-30 year old men on the front lines just because of this.

Looks like they may start putting their efforts elsewhere

Ukraine 'starts preparing to build a NUCLEAR bomb

The weapon would be built from plutonium and use similar technology to the nuclear bomb dropped on Nagasaki in 1945, the report prepared for the country's Ministry of Defence stated.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[85Bears]

Zelensky needs to sign a defense pact with Colombia, then he can have unlimited access to cocaine. This little thieving addict doesn’t need access to nukes.

 

[L4Dawg]

As someone that is not a big Trump fan I guess I am confused how he is so terrible. Rumsfeld was a career politician.

He has ZERO relevant experience.