OT: Gun Control / School Shootings what would you do if you could?

[horshack.sixpack]

Preface: gun owner/hunter/2nd amendment supporter here; however, the US is unique in the mass shootings department and there has to be an answer/or answers

I would:

1. By law the shooter's name never gets out or publicized (just for those seeking some perverted 15 minutes of "fame")
2. If you are a parent of a minor who uses one of your guns, you get the same charge the do (keep your guns locked up)
3. If you have a gun stolen from your vehicle, you lose your gun rights because you are contributing to the illegal gun problem
4. Extensive background checks before purchase of any firearm. Yes, you may have to wait a few days. If you have some shooting event so poorly planned that you can't wait that's on you. (this should not be political and should be common sense)
5. Not sure I'd ban the AR15 but high capacity military looking guns seem to be the popular weapon. I don't understand the psychology behind it as it certainly isn't the only one that can kill. However, i'd gladly do away with my AR15 range shooting if I knew that one kid's life would be saved

Mods if this turns into some "patriots" against "libs" disaster, which it shouldn't, lock it sooner than later. I'm honestly looking to see if there are any legit pragmatic thoughts about solving the problem. It's quite depressing to see the state of the US vs a lot of other countries when it comes to mass killings by citizens.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

One point of entry and trained/armed security. You go to some of these schools and they have doors propped open.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I would:

1. By law the shooter's name never gets out or publicized (just for those seeking some perverted 15 minutes of "fame")
2. If you are a parent of a minor who uses one of your guns, you get the same charge the do (keep your guns locked up)
3. If you have a gun stolen from your vehicle, you lose your gun rights because you are contributing to the illegal gun problem
4. Extensive background checks before purchase of any firearm. Yes, you may have to wait a few days. If you have some shooting event so poorly planned that you can't wait that's on you. (this should not be political and should be common sense)
5. Not sure I'd ban the AR15 but high capacity military looking guns seem to be the popular weapon. I don't understand the psychology behind it as it certainly isn't the only one that can kill. However, i'd gladly do away with my AR15 range shooting if I knew that one kid's life would be saved

Mods if this turns into some "patriots" against "libs" disaster, which it shouldn't, lock it sooner than later. I'm honestly looking to see if there are any legit pragmatic thoughts about solving the problem. It's quite depressing to see the state of the US vs a lot of other countries when it comes to mass killings by citizens.

Agreed on 2 - 4 and your preface & postscript. Not sure on the legality of 1 & 5.

I'd add:

6. Background check includes required Mental Health evaluation.

 

[Phil Wenneck.sixpack]

I see no problem with your recommendations. The part of this story that's

making me see red is seeing there was no resource officer or anything of the sort on the school grounds. And the kid just walked thru an open door. Then there's the law enforcement piece. I get that it's a small town and probably next to nothing on training but a full hour passed from the time this punk walked in till he was killed. And if reports are true, parents pleaded with them to do more. That's unacceptable and heads should be rolling somewhere.

 

[thatsbaseball]

I just know that when a complete psycho 18 year old can legally buy an assault rifle and several hundred rounds of ammo 3 days after his 18th birthday with apparently little or no vetting whatsoever we've got problems that need some addressing.

 

[dorndawg]

I'm honestly looking to see if there are any legit pragmatic thoughts about solving the problem. It's quite depressing to see the state of the US vs a lot of other countries when it comes to mass killings by citizens.

We know what we need to do.

"In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." Dan Hodges

 

[jethreauxdawg]

Agree with #1

I think the “wanting to be noticed/feared/respected” is the big driver.
Undecided but leaning toward agree on number 2.
Hell no to number 3, being a victim of a crime shouldn’t prevent you from being able to defend yourself from future crimes
Number four doesn’t bother me in principle but I fully expect our govt to turn “a few days” into “a few years” if given the chance.
Number 5, disagree. The look of a gun has zero to do with this. Thankfully these sick individuals don’t use other means that would be more devastating but look less “military”.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

We know what we need to do.

Dorn, what do we need to do and how do we do it?

 

[jethreauxdawg]

I think bullet proof windows and buzz locks on classroom doors is an idea worth exploring. I understand the locks in the door bring up scary thoughts from a fire department stand point, but it should be discussed. My kids used to attend and school that was doing some cosmetic building renovations. I approached the school about starting a fundraiser for replacing the windows and doors with bulletproof versions while the other renovations were happening. I figured the parents in each class could quickly chip in to make that happen. The school told me no.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Valid. I assumed I was a dictator and could do what I like.

 

[dog12]

Every school building should have only one entrance/exit point, with an armed guard stationed at that point.

Every other door to the buildings should be locked up.

All classrooms in the buildings should have locks, and every classroom should be locked except during class changes.

 

[Pars]

Can’t buy a beer at 18 but can buy an AR and all the ammo you want. Pretty dumb.
Universal Background checks and waiting periods are a start.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

He bought 2, ArmaLite Rifles (AR-15). That should've registered as odd.

 

[J-Dawg]

My thoughts on your points, while realizing it's much more complicated and involves more things than just "gun control":

1. Agreed wholeheartedly. Starting with Pearl High and Columbine, the sensationalism of the media has no-doubt helped drive some of these events.
2. I agree here, as well. If you were a parent letting your teenager have a party with alcohol, party-goer drives drunk and kills themselves or someone else, you'd be liable. Should be the same with guns for crimes committed.
3. Do not agree. Say I'm carrying my guns in my truck, stop by Walmart to get supplies for a weekend at hunting camp, and my truck is broken into in the parking lot? No. If you truly believe this, then you should be 100% supportive of closed borders being that tons of weapons are trafficked and involved in the illegal drug trade.
4. Personally, I'd have no problem with mandatory wait days on purchasing from a dealer. However, my comment response to this is two-fold. A) This does nothing to address firearms acquired through black market or secondary market means. B) Most of these mass school shootings are not spur of the moment. They are premeditated which means they would plan for the wait period.
5. No real comment on this, as I don't own an AR-15.

I'm all of the things you list in your preface as well. My issue with the reaction to these events is that it's always a reaction (from all angles). We have (and not just USA) deep rooted cultural issues. However it's so prevalent here due to the melting pot of cultures and our overindulgence in the media, especially social media. People in general have forgotten how to separate reality from what they interpret as reality on social media. We are constantly bombarded with fanatical and sensationalized messaging and have lost all ability to think logically and realistically. Everyone has become more socially isolated and divided into "tribes" or "camps" on issues by media and social media and have absolutely lost the ability to socialize with people that are different from them. There's no gray area anymore, it's black or white, this or that, for us or against us, friend or enemy.

When we as a society begin to view anyone who doesn't look like us, sound like us, agree with us, or align with us politically as the enemy, then we become truly lost. And this could be the root of many more problems we face as a society, not just those involving guns or mass murder.

 

[aTotal360]

In general, we have a violence problem in the US. There is no perfect solution, but I think there are things we can do to lessen the likelihood mass shootings. First thing we have to do is realize bAnNIng GuNZz isn't an option. There are more guns than people in the US. The act of physically confiscating guns is impossible. Asking people to do it will only leave guns in the wrong people's hands. I'll say this, I'm not voluntarily leaving myself and family unarmed.

First we need to address mental health problems. Police and teachers have been effectively neutered from being able to address potential threats because of repercussions that may occur. We have to be able to call a spade a spade. If there is a weird kid shooting people with a pellet gun, put the kid under surveillance and get him help. And yes, don't let him buy firearms.

I'm a gun guy, but have no problem raising the age to buy to 21. 2A absolutist don't want to hear that, but I'm not against it.

I'm not for universal background checks. I am for making it harder/impossible for people with a rap sheet to buy guns.

As for AR's being more deadly, it really is just a conversation about magazines. At the end of the day, they send a projectile out of a barrel just like a Browning BAR hunting rifle. The only real difference is one has a 4-5 round mag and the other is much larger.

I also think males are overexposed to violent forms of media. From hyper realistic shooters to shoot'em up movies, I think boys are somewhat calloused to putting the crosshairs on another human.

Our problem is uniquely American. There isn't a perfect solution.

 

[Shmuley]

^^^ This. No way in hell to defend what happened here.

 

[Hugh's Burner Phone]

Preface: gun owner/hunter/2nd amendment supporter here; however, the US is unique in the mass shootings department and there has to be an answer/or answers

I would:

1. By law the shooter's name never gets out or publicized (just for those seeking some perverted 15 minutes of "fame")
2. If you are a parent of a minor who uses one of your guns, you get the same charge the do (keep your guns locked up)
3. If you have a gun stolen from your vehicle, you lose your gun rights because you are contributing to the illegal gun problem
4. Extensive background checks before purchase of any firearm. Yes, you may have to wait a few days. If you have some shooting event so poorly planned that you can't wait that's on you. (this should not be political and should be common sense)
5. Not sure I'd ban the AR15 but high capacity military looking guns seem to be the popular weapon. I don't understand the psychology behind it as it certainly isn't the only one that can kill. However, i'd gladly do away with my AR15 range shooting if I knew that one kid's life would be saved

Mods if this turns into some "patriots" against "libs" disaster, which it shouldn't, lock it sooner than later. I'm honestly looking to see if there are any legit pragmatic thoughts about solving the problem. It's quite depressing to see the state of the US vs a lot of other countries when it comes to mass killings by citizens.

1. I'm fine either way on this.

2 and 3 I strongly disagree with. You have a legal right to have a gun in your vehicle the same as any other deadly item (axe, knife, baseball bat, crowbar, etc.) If you have your weapon out of sight in a locked vehicle then you have done all you can. Why is breaking into a car any different than someone breaking into your home while you are at work and stealing a gun? The same with charging parents. If your kid got a bat and went to a park and started beating kids to death how is that your fault? What if you had the key to your gun safe hidden and they found it. What about parents that can't afford a $2,000 gun safe. There's millions of gun owners that don't have the disposable income to drop on something like that.

4. What more are you wanting to accomplish with this background check? What are you wanting looked into that the instantaneous one does not check?

5. Rifles are used in less than 1% of all homicides. AR's are just a small percentage of that 1%.

I am adamantly against punishing the innocent for something someone else does.

For schools I would like to see single point locked entry. If you are not a student or teacher you are only allowed into a secured reception type area. All doors going from that area to the rest of the school are limited access badge or keypad controlled. Armed resource officers in all schools.

Make the commission of any crime committed with a weapon carry a mandatory double sentence with a minimum of 15 years with no possibility of parole. I don't care if you did nothing but steal a pack of Juicy Fruit. If you have a gun on you, see you in a decade and a half.

Increase the sentence for straw purchasers substantially. If you knowingly buy a gun for somebody that can't legally possess one see you in 20 years.

Anyone caught committing a crime with a stolen weapon sees a 10 year tack on to their sentence.

But if Congress wants to make a law banning weapons then the security that guards them should also lose those same weapons. They don't get to hide behind security guards toting AR's when they deprive the general public of those same means of self defense. If they truly believe those are weapons of war that should just be used by the military then make a law that only the military can have them. But don't tell some inner city family in a crime infested **** hole of a community they can't defend themselves by any means necessary when they live in their gated communities with armed guards at the entrance and every 30 feet in their workplace.

 

[aTotal360]

Who is going to do the gun grabbing? Military? Lol

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I get really pissed every time I hear of someone whose gun was stolen from their car. Illegal guns seem to often be the regular day to day killings, but it seems that the mass murders are most often legally obtained. I don't think American youth are any more exposed to video game than first world countries. It's perplexing.

 

[Len2003]

The only way to stop the problem is to get rid of guns. It's not the answer people want to hear, but it's the answer. The arguments to keep guns make no logical sense. If anyone really believes that having guns will protect them from the government, they are being willfully ignorant. The government can drone you into oblivion.

The second amendment argument doesn't hold water either. The Constitution is a living document that needs to be updated from time to time. The second amendment was written at a time when people had muskets and needed the ability to form a standing army quickly. The fact that people use the second amendment to allow people to buy an assault rifle is insane.

 

[11thEagleFan]

Let me tell you guys what I did last night. I don’t know why, but this incident has affected me a lot. Even more than other school shootings. It could be because I have 3 children, 2 of whom are the same age range as the victims. My two boys are 11 and 7. After they went to bed last night, I went into their rooms and just watched them sleep. I watched their chests rise and fall and listened to them breathe. Then I went to my 4 year old daughter’s room. She’s a major daddy’s girl. I crawled onto her bed and just hugged her and held her close.

Then I thought about how many parents in Uvalde, Texas would give anything to be able to do what I just did. And I’m not ashamed to admit it, but I cried.

I don’t care if you’re a Democrat, Republican, or otherwise. This is not a political issue. It’s so much more. And if you’re an elected official and you’re not willing to at least consider solutions that include some form of gun control, mental health screening and treatment, red flag laws, increased security, or some combination of all, you should resign your office in disgrace. And before anybody tries to label me, I am a gun owner. I believe in home protection and hunting for recreation. But damn it, something has to change.

 

[Len2003]

making me see red is seeing there was no resource officer or anything of the sort on the school grounds. And the kid just walked thru an open door. Then there's the law enforcement piece. I get that it's a small town and probably next to nothing on training but a full hour passed from the time this punk walked in till he was killed. And if reports are true, parents pleaded with them to do more. That's unacceptable and heads should be rolling somewhere.

The fact that law enforcement officers don't feel comfortable going into a situation with an individual with an AR-15 is the best argument against these types of weapons being available to the public. They know they're outmatched in that type of situation.

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

Two things that are both already legal

1. Actually enforce the straw purchasing laws. Instead of making new laws, how about we actually enforce the ones we have.

2. Fortify schools by making them less accessible (one point of entry).

The big question is not what to do about guns. We have ALWAYS had a plethora of guns in this country. The big question is why have mass shootings increased in frequency?

All the gun control advocates need to address this question first. Here's a thread I found informative:

[TWEET]1529577076419923968[/TWEET]

 

[Hugh's Burner Phone]

The only way to stop the problem is to get rid of guns. It's not the answer people want to hear, but it's the answer. The arguments to keep guns make no logical sense. If anyone really believes that having guns will protect them from the government, they are being willfully ignorant. The government can drone you into oblivion.

The second amendment argument doesn't hold water either. The Constitution is a living document that needs to be updated from time to time. The second amendment was written at a time when people had muskets and needed the ability to form a standing army quickly. The fact that people use the second amendment to allow people to buy an assault rifle is insane.

Then let's ban the possession of heroin and fentanyl, too, if that's all it takes.

 

[ronpolk]

I think short term answer is security and how people enter and exit schools should be totally revamped. This seems like something that can be done in a relatively short time frame. Probably expensive but I bet bi partisan and the funds could be found.

On the gun front, I honestly don’t have any idea. Current system seems broken but you also have to factor in that the overwhelming majority of gun owners never cause a problem. I’m fine with a waiting period, I’m fine with however strict background check we want. What I can’t really figure out, would stricter background checks and waiting period have stopped sandy hook or what happened earlier this week?

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

The only way to stop the problem is to get rid of guns. It's not the answer people want to hear, but it's the answer. The arguments to keep guns make no logical sense. If anyone really believes that having guns will protect them from the government, they are being willfully ignorant. The government can drone you into oblivion.

The second amendment argument doesn't hold water either. The Constitution is a living document that needs to be updated from time to time. The second amendment was written at a time when people had muskets and needed the ability to form a standing army quickly. The fact that people use the second amendment to allow people to buy an assault rifle is insane.

We have always had guns in this country. Always. Why are the mass shootings increasing? That's the question.

 

[aTotal360]

It's the combination of exposure and access to guns. Canada has a pile of guns too. Culturally we are lost. Most of these mass murders don't have any perceived value in life. They have no mentors. Some kids have been locked up for 2 years because of covid restrictions. It's not healthy.

 

[Hugh's Burner Phone]

The big question is not what to do about guns. We have ALWAYS had a plethora of guns in this country. The big question is why have mass shootings increased in frequency?



/QUOTE]

This. Guns just as deadly as the AR have been in this country for decades, but these school shootings are a relatively recent occurrence starting with Luke Woodall in Pearl High School. Hell, back in the 20's and 30's the general public had access to Tommy guns and other full automatic weaponry, but not one school ever got shot up with one.

 

[dorndawg]

The fact that law enforcement officers don't feel comfortable going into a situation with an individual with an AR-15 is the best argument against these types of weapons being available to the public. They know they're outmatched in that type of situation.

Uvalde spends 40% of it's budget on police, which is not uncommon for other cities.

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

I think short term answer is security and how people enter and exit schools should be totally revamped. This seems like something that can be done in a relatively short time frame. Probably expensive but I bet bi partisan and the funds could be found.

The funds are already there. Tens of billions of dollars in COVID relief to schools unused.

 

[aTotal360]

The fact those officers weren't comfortable doing their job tells me they need another job.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Best post in this thread.

 

[Cooterpoot]

The fact that law enforcement officers don't feel comfortable going into a situation with an individual with an AR-15 is the best argument against these types of weapons being available to the public. They know they're outmatched in that type of situation.

You realize an AR 15 isnt fully automatic and law enforcement has access to fully automatic weapons right? Not to mention body armor etc. Damn

 

[Coast_Dawg]

Ban first person shooter games and similar. People are desensitized to killing at early ages by video games and video entertainment. Teach common courtesy. People need to stop acting like animals with no care about fellow humans. I’ll stop instead of going on and on. People can do massive amounts of damage with things other than guns. Guns are just the easiest in the current world we live in.

 

[dorndawg]

It's the combination of exposure and access to guns. Canada has a pile of guns too. Culturally we are lost. Most of these mass murders don't have any perceived value in life. They have no mentors. Some kids have been locked up for 2 years because of covid restrictions. It's not healthy.

Canada has VASTLY different gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Canada#Laws_and_regulations

 

[Duke Humphrey]

I don’t care if you’re a Democrat, Republican, or otherwise. This is not a political issue. It’s so much more. And if you’re an elected official and you’re not willing to at least consider solutions that include some form of gun control, mental health screening and treatment, red flag laws, increased security, or some combination of all, you should resign your office in disgrace. And before anybody tries to label me, I am a gun owner. I believe in home protection and hunting for recreation. But damn it, something has to change.

Because we live in a hyper-partisan country, and both sides are scared to blink. One side wants everyone to have a gun and take it everywhere. The other wants guns made illegal, no exceptions. There are decent people on both sides, but those folks are scared to negotiate in fear of their base and the next primary election. It has become one of the most awful aspects of this country* and created a government ruled by bureaucracy and executive orders. However, this is the most egregious lack of action as children are dying.

*ETA: Reworded this part because I do not think "this country is awful", but this is certainly an awful characteristic of where we are as a society.

 

[ll Martain ll]

That sounds more like a prison than a school.

Edit - idealistically, I want schools to be safe, positive environment AND like they're part of the community. But that's a pipe dream...

 

[dorndawg]

That sounds more like a prison than a school.

Triangle Shirtwaist Elementary

 

[horshack.sixpack]

We lose a lot of opportunity to improve based on fear related to the zero sum game and slippery slope principle...

 

[Hot Rock]

Who is going to do the gun grabbing? Military? Lol

This is not a laughing matter. This is children being shot in our schools and mass killings by people with hate in their hearts.

Gun grabbing, was not even proposed. What was proposed is background checks on everyone wanting to buy a gun. If that had happened, this one shooting may have been prevented. Sure, he may could have gotten something on the black market but just maybe it would not have been two AR-15's and maybe we could have limited the deaths or even he would have chickened out with less fire power. I doubt it, this 18 year old shot his grandmother over a cell phone.