Mays was a better base runner. By a huge margin.
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OT: Happy 93rd Birthday to maybe the best that ever played the game.
- Thread starter MtNittany
- Start date
Mays was a great center fielder. His put out totals were huge. Mays was a better outfielder. There is no real argument. Aaron was good, but Mays was great. Mays played center field for a reason. He got to balls nobody else could get to.
Leo Durocher played and coached from 1925 until 1973. What follows is him on the greatest player he ever saw.
And the greatest catch ever made.
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Interestingly Mantle said Aaron was the best player of his era and never got enough credit.
So Willie’s former manager thinks he was the best ever. What a surprise. See my other post about Mantle’s opinion
Willie Mays' career WAR 156.1
Hank Aaron's career WAR 143.1
Willie Mays 13 Gold Gloves in CF
Hank Aaron 3 Gold Gloves in RF
10 reasons Willie Mays is the greatest ever
Top 25 players in MLB All Time (Hank comes in at #3 while Willie comes in at #2)
MS Bing Co-pilot list of greatest MLB players in history (Aaron #3, Mays #2 and Ruth #1)
If you google Greatest MLB player in history, practically every link has Aaron #3, Mays #2 and Ruth #1. I found one that had Aaron # 5, Mays #3, Ruth #2, and Bonds #1. Let's throw that one out. The consensus is Mays was better than Aaron.
Hank Aaron's career WAR 143.1
Willie Mays 13 Gold Gloves in CF
Hank Aaron 3 Gold Gloves in RF
10 reasons Willie Mays is the greatest ever
Top 25 players in MLB All Time (Hank comes in at #3 while Willie comes in at #2)
MS Bing Co-pilot list of greatest MLB players in history (Aaron #3, Mays #2 and Ruth #1)
If you google Greatest MLB player in history, practically every link has Aaron #3, Mays #2 and Ruth #1. I found one that had Aaron # 5, Mays #3, Ruth #2, and Bonds #1. Let's throw that one out. The consensus is Mays was better than Aaron.
Clemente also had the highest cumulative batting average for the decade of the '60s.
Which WAR are you talking about. Too many to keep up with. Besides this WAR stuff was an off shoot of the guy, Bill James, who claimed that there is no difference between a strikeout and any other out. As I pointed out before, Aaron had a few more assists and a few less errors than Mays and a .980 vs .981 fielding percentage. He also had a higher batting average, 95 more homers and 388 more RBI than Mays while each played 23 seasons. But hey if you googled it and saw it on the internet, it must be gospel. Me I will go with Mantle’s opinion rather than google.
With nobody on base a strikeout is no different than any other out. With two out, a strikeout is no different than any other out. The worst outs are double plays; you’d rather strike out than hit into a double play.
Slight correction. Mays had 12 Gold Glove Awards which ties him with Clemente among outfielders.
It could be argued Aaron would have had many more had he not played the same position, right field, as Clemente.
Most Gold Glove Awards at each position
The Rawlings Gold Glove Award has a long and rich history. It's a great honor just to win one of these over a Major League career, but there are some players in baseball history who are in the top echelon when it comes to sparkling defense. Here's a look at
www.mlb.com
It can also be argued that Willie would have hit more HR's than Aaron if they played in each other's ballparks.Slight correction. Mays had 12 Gold Glove Awards which ties him with Clemente among outfielders.
It could be argued Aaron would have had many more had he not played the same position, right field, as Clemente.
Most Gold Glove Awards at each position
The Rawlings Gold Glove Award has a long and rich history. It's a great honor just to win one of these over a Major League career, but there are some players in baseball history who are in the top echelon when it comes to sparkling defense. Here's a look at
You might have heard about the Red Sox passing on Mays (they gave him a tryout). Imagine Mays playing with Williams for the better part of a decade, in Fenway Park.
This reminded me of a lesser known story, in Bruce Kulick’s “To Every Thing a Season: Shibe Park and Urban Philadelphia, 1909-1976:” The A’s had a chance to sign Larry Doby, Minnie Minoso, and Aaron for $13,500 total. “If Mr. Mack had signed Aaron, Doby, and Minoso, the A’s would still be in Philadelphia.”
Here’s a stronger statement: with nobody on base or with two out, all outs are created equal. The best outs are those which move up a runner. The worst outs are triple plays, followed by double plays.
This is just me being me.
Aaron was a good right fielder with a great arm. Willie was an all time great fielder. IDK about the fielding percentages. Willie got to balls others didn’t have a chance of reaching.
If you want to argue that a pre leg injury Mantle was the best of the bunch, I can’t argue. Fact is Mickey didn’t have many years in center before he got hurt. With today’s medicine Who knows what Mantle could have accomplished.
Aaron had durability on his side. 1500 more at bats. I don’t argue with his greatness. Mays was a spectacular athlete with amazing gifts. Those gifts made him unique, but they also burned out in his last years. I don’t doubt 700 homers though if he didn’t play in an ice box on the ocean.
This discussion is fun, but it makes me sad in a way. The steroid era denied us a fair comparison of these players with people like Barry Bonds. When you look at pictures of Bonds with the Pirates and then with the Giants you see what chemistry produced. He looks like two different people. I feel the stats from 1990 to 2005 almost have to be tossed. It’s not fair to the Mantles, Williams, and Dimaggios.
Players have been using performance enhancing substances (banned or not banned) since the early days of the game.
Performance enhancing? Maybe stuff like speed, but nothing equivalent to roids. With them we had body enhancing.
I agree, just pointing it out. Also if you think players from the 20's-80's wouldn't have used steroids were they available, I would disagree.
There were only so many jobs. The NFL didn't pay and the NBA really didn't pay, so the best athletes matriculated to baseball. Being on one of say 16 rosters was cherished and players would do anything to stay there.
Gee thanks for that insight. How is a strikeout with a runner on first with no one out as opposed to putting the ball in play and advancing the runner to second?
Precisely.Slight correction. Mays had 12 Gold Glove Awards which ties him with Clemente among outfielders.
It could be argued Aaron would have had many more had he not played the same position, right field, as Clemente.
Most Gold Glove Awards at each position
The Rawlings Gold Glove Award has a long and rich history. It's a great honor just to win one of these over a Major League career, but there are some players in baseball history who are in the top echelon when it comes to sparkling defense. Here's a look at
I knew this nonsense would come up sooner or later. Before his final season in Milwaukee Aaron hit 379 homers at home and 366 on the road. But hey why let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
You really want to compare the "launching pad" in Atlanta to Candlestick Park?
I get it, you love Aaron. We all do. He was a great ballplayer. However, when you attempt to deny the gifts of another great in order to raise him up you end up just looking silly.
Really? Aaron made the same plays in the field with ease and didn’t show boat like Mays with basket catches. As I pointed out elsewhere Aaron had a few more assist and a few less errors lifetime than Mays which doesn’t support the claim that Mays and an almost identical fielding percentage doesn’t support the claim that Mays was a supetior fielder than Aaron. The statistics DO confirm that Aaron was a superior offensive player than Mays. As I also said before, all of this is a matter of opinion. My point is that those who claim Mays was “unquestionably” the best player is nonsense.
Oh just stop. Mays homers on the road and at home were almost identical Last I checked all players play the same number of games at home and on the road. Funny how those “amazing gifts” didn’t translate into 95 more homers and 388 more RBI in the same number of seasons as Aaron. I saw them both play and Aaron was an exceptional athlete as well; he just didn’t show boat.
When you look at Ruth's numbers you just have to shake your head. Here was a guy who spent his first years as a pitcher, a very good one at that with World Series records to his credit. Then he goes and becomes a full time outfielder and changes the way the game is played. He even missed long stretches due to injury. Amazing.
I heard that Richie Ashburn had the highest cumulative batting average for the 1950s.
Gold gloves were awarded differently prior to 2011. Wikipedia - "The phrase "at each position" was not strictly accurate until 2011, when the awards were changed to specify individual awards for left fielder, center fielder, and right fielder. Previously, the prize was presented to three outfielders irrespective of their specific position."
Go ahead, try to rationalize 12 to 2 in gold gloves.
More to the original point, Bill James never said that a strikeout is no different than any other out. How do I know? Because, statistically, it’s not true, and James is all about statistics. Plus, I spent the last half hour looking for James saying something like this. There’s nothing out there.
Caveat: it’s possible that the formulas James uses don’t make a distinction between strikeouts and other outs. I’ll check.
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Maybe when somebody starts a thread honoring Hank Aaron (not as good as Willie Mays, no way!) someone else will ruin it by incessantly posting how much better Marv Throneberry was.
Two things to consider. First, the narrative of Mays was born in New York. Playing there was a huge boost for those that enjoyed the attention. He did. It could also be a detriment for those who would not embrace it. I can’t say with certainty how Aaron would have managed playing a meaningful amount of games in New York.
Second, if you ever had the chance to talk to Mays, he would tell you about the physical challenges that presented themselves playing in Candlestick. He once shared that his first wife had certain ailments that he attributed to her going to the games and sitting in that weather. Playing there took a physical toll.
For me, I can’t separate the two. I would have taken Mays in his prime over Aaron in his prime. I can’t think of anything that Aaron did that Mays didn’t do slightly better. I think Aaron was a better pure hitter, Mays had better power. Defensively and running the bases, Mays was better. Both are baseball royalty, give me either of them. It was an honor and a privilege seeing both play.
Second, if you ever had the chance to talk to Mays, he would tell you about the physical challenges that presented themselves playing in Candlestick. He once shared that his first wife had certain ailments that he attributed to her going to the games and sitting in that weather. Playing there took a physical toll.
For me, I can’t separate the two. I would have taken Mays in his prime over Aaron in his prime. I can’t think of anything that Aaron did that Mays didn’t do slightly better. I think Aaron was a better pure hitter, Mays had better power. Defensively and running the bases, Mays was better. Both are baseball royalty, give me either of them. It was an honor and a privilege seeing both play.
You could flatten your glove, and place it against the chain link fence in the bullpen in Candlestick - and the wind would hold it there. I would say the LH hitters suffered the most though.
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I was curious and ran the numbers and Ashburn hit .313 from 1950-59. For those same 10 seasons, Stan Musial hit .330 and Ted Williams hit .336. Clemente hit .328 from 1960-69.
